Starting a collection for my son. - Page 2

Boogershooter · December 24, 2015, 12:18 AM

Highpower forgive me for a bad memory but I've got to ask about the 4th and 5th rifles from the left. The 4th looks like a Springfield and the 5th looks like a 2 band Enfield. Please correct me if I'm wrong and I would also like to know if those are repro's or originals.

highpower3006 · December 24, 2015, 02:53 PM

The fourth one from the left is a 1861 Springfield made in 1862 and the fifth one over is an 1884 Trapdoor made in 1890.

Boogershooter · December 24, 2015, 11:02 PM

Very nice collection. I have a very nice collection of civil war guns my father left me. A original Spencer was the crown of this collection I believe if my memory serves me correctly.

mtlucas0311 · December 25, 2015, 10:53 AM

Everyone has their own interests and motivations when it comes to what they like about milsurp rifles, but you said your son is starting to shoot so I'll share my perspective as a collector and service rifle shooter. As others have mentioned, a Garand from the CMP should be your first order of business, service grade if you want an all GI gun, one of the CMP specials if you want a "like new" Garand. I say this because the Garands WILL be gone sometime in the near future, and prices will likely jump up significantly. Plus, a CMP Garand hasn't been cherry picked of its desirable parts. I think you mentioned earlier that you were looking at an "all matching Garand". The overwhelming majority of Garands out there have been overhauled multiple times. Many people who buy a Garand set out to correct it with matching parts (myself included I must admit). It takes a very experienced eye to catch every little neuonce of every little part. And even if everything is "correct" it doesn't mean it's original. When starting out, I'd recommend just getting a nice service grade rifle from the CMP. There's no better deal out there, and there's no concern of paying a premium for a corrected rifle.

That said with respect to Garands, I would pass on all the moisins, carcanos, sks's, etc. for now. I know a lot of people like them, but I just don't find them to be very accurate (with the exception of some cast bullet shooters who've invested a bunch of time and research). There's a reason you just don't see many on the firing line at the vintage rifle matches. While I agree the glory days are gone, there are still very high quality, accurate rifles out there. In my opinion, the Swedish mausers, Swiss 1911's/K31's, and British No.4 mk I/II's are the best deals out there. Excellent quality examples can still be found for around $300 with some digging and if you push it to $400 it's pretty easy to find a really nice rifle.

I'd love to include the 1903's, 1903A3's, and M1917's, but they're now commanding over $600 on a good day, and $800 on places like Gunbroker.

Boogershooter · December 25, 2015, 09:16 PM

I've been on cmp and there is none available according to their site. First weekend of January there will be a good gunshow. He has a Lil money saved up and got a Lil bit more for christmas. I will match what he has and see what we can come up with. Thanks for all the help and info. Keep it coming please.

mtlucas0311 · December 25, 2015, 10:26 PM

Not sure if you were looking at the store reports or what? They look available to me via mail order, which is pry your best bet. The racks at the stores have been pretty dry of service grades in the last few years compared to say, 5 years ago. Here's a link right to the rifle sales page:

http://thecmp.org/cmp_sales/rifle_sales/m1-garand/

Service grades are $730 shipped, and about half way down the page. Special grades are $1,030 shipped and right below the service grades.

If a Garand is what your after, you'll never find the bang for your buck at a gunshow like you will mail ordering one from the CMP.

Regards,
Mike

Boogershooter · January 8, 2016, 10:09 PM

I'm headed to a gunshow in the morning. Hopefully we will leave the show with atleast 2 maybe 3 rifles. He has $300 and I'm a sucker when my kids eyes light up so what is the best bang for the buck going right now?

kilimanjaro · January 8, 2016, 11:26 PM

The Lee-Enfield is still available in nice condition, and the SKS. Don't be surprised to come home with just one or two rifles for all your money.

Condition is everthing.

If you find a nice US Krag, Springfield 1903, or M1917 for a decent price, buy it and be good for the day.

A nice British P13 would be another one.

Look for good metal and wood.

Boogershooter · January 9, 2016, 12:02 AM

He will likely spend his coin quickly and I will look thru the rest of the show. He will buy his first and I will likely get the second. I have several sks's he can choose from already but he's into WWII right now so it will likely be both bolt guns in the morning.

springer99 · January 9, 2016, 08:44 AM

"but he's into WWII right now"

I've always felt that any collection is more meaningful when is has a larger meaning than just a bunch of guns. Don't just buy guns that are cheap, or all you can say is that this was a cheap gun collection.

If you were in the service, how about collecting all the guns that YOU used or were in world service at the time.

Otherwise pick a period in history that interests you and focus first on obtaining all major arms used during that time.

It's always more interesting when the collection can also lead to some story telling.

kilimanjaro · January 9, 2016, 07:34 PM

Most veterans were in the service during the M16/full auto days, can't build much of a collection on that basis, unless you're doing handguns only or are very well heeled.

WWII themes are good, Korea as well, that just WWII updated a bit. WWI is good, but guns are scarce and expensive.

One main battle rifle from each of the WWII belligerants would be a good starting point, US, UK, Germany, Italy, Japan, Finland, Russia. Then get into the minor players, like France, Holland, Poland, Hungary, etc., and even into important Neutrals like Turkey, Spain, Switzerland, Sweden. Both sides spent a lot of money and effort keeping the neutrals out of the war or courting them to join it on their side. The Commonwealth had Canada, Australia, and India as major allies, all these had their own rifles. The No. 5 Lee-Enfield was used in the Burma/SE Asia theater exclusively.

Boogershooter · January 9, 2016, 07:40 PM

Very poor excuse for a gunshow today. Very few examples for him to look at. I picked up a couple nice guns but none in the c&r category. There will be another show next month from a different company.

springer99 · January 9, 2016, 08:29 PM

Kilimanjaro - "Most veterans were in the service during the M16/full auto days, can't build much of a collection on that basis, unless you're doing handguns only or are very well heeled."

Now you're making me feel pretty old.

Actually, I was in during the early Nam years, but believe it or not, the first weapon I was issued was an M1. I finally graduated to the M14 and never carried the M16 at all. In the late '60's, it was surprising how many WWII and Korean era arms were still in heavy use on all sides.

late 19th century and WWI arms are also a very interesting era, having a lot of transitioning arms from single shots, with many action types to some good bolt actions arms that made it right thru WWII. Not too expensive to collect either in many cases.

Boogershooter · April 21, 2016, 05:00 PM

Well I finally got a chance to pick him up a couple rifles today. Picked up a 03A3, and a remington rolling block chambered in .43 Spanish. The 03 is a national ordinance refurb and looks brand new. I'm still searching for some .43 ammo. It came with bayonet and scabbard. If anybody has any helpful info on this argentine rifle I certainly would appreciate it. I got a marlin 1894 in 32-20 in the deal for the ol lady. All 3 for a very good deal. Sry I can't post pics.

kilimanjaro · April 21, 2016, 06:38 PM

You might luck out with .43 Spanish at Buffalo Arms in Idaho, they will have brass and bullets, too.

I've never seen it except as an antique, I had to pony up for a Lee loader set for my .43 Danish Rolling Block.

That bayonet and scabbard are worth a couple bucks, alone.

The rifle was used by Argentina in the series of wars there, Paraquay, Uruguay, and Argentina were pretty much constantly at war for a couple of decades. They all went from ally to belligerent with each other at the drop of a hat. I don't remember the basic casus belli, territory or something, or perhaps just Latin pride.

Boogershooter · April 21, 2016, 06:45 PM

Only markings on the rrb are on the tang. E Remington and sons followed by 2 rows of dates. Very hard to read even with magnifying glass. I found some ammo from Buffalo arms. I believe the ammo is worth more than the gun lol. I havnt found anywhere on the Web about safety issues with this gun so if nobody here has any I will be shooting it when the ammo comes in. Then locking it in the safe til he gets a Lil older. After he cleans it of course.

Boogershooter · April 21, 2016, 06:52 PM

Thanks kil, I've been pulling up old reads on the gun. Havnt found any value estimates yet but my son looked at it and said " really dad-another teddy Roosevelt gun?" I guess he's been in my bedroom a Lil too much. He's young and learning.

kilimanjaro · April 21, 2016, 08:16 PM

He needs to see the films [I]Rough Riders, The Wind and the Lion[I], he'll change his tune about TR-era rifles.

Boogershooter · April 24, 2016, 02:43 AM

I really was expecting some warnings about the national ordinance 03A3. I've heard of a few cases where 4 or 5 of the cast failing. If memory serves correctly they were all very close in time frame and area. In the back of my mind I wondered about the possibility of those guns going thru the same shop because of the close proximity of time and area. Havnt heard of any blowing up in recent years.

mtlucas0311 · April 24, 2016, 08:30 AM

If you knew National Ordnance receivers were terds, why did you buy it? Are the GI parts in exceptional condition to transfer to a GI receiver? Was it so cheap it was a deal for parts alone?

Boogershooter · April 24, 2016, 09:48 AM

I bought 3 guns for $500. The 03a3 was bought to put in my son's collection. The gun looks brand new and if he never shoots it, it's still a nice representation of a classic. I have several all originals in my grandfather's collection in which my kids will inherit one day. As of now alot of them are on loan to museums. The other two guns were a remington and sons rolling block chambered in 43 spanish and a marlin 1894 in 32-20. For 500 why not bring all 3 home? He's only 9 and it will be awhile before he can shoot most of these.

aarondhgraham · April 24, 2016, 10:53 AM

When I was a kid and we could order these rifles through the mail,,,
I wanted one rifle from each major country,,,
Something like this list.

US - M1 Garand (or to stay with bolts a 1917 Springfield)
Japan - Arisaka (6.5mm or 7.7mm)
Great Britain - Lee Enfield
Germany - K98 Mauser
Italy - Carcano carbine
Russia - Mosin Nagant

You would still be looking at 2 to 4 grand,,,
But those rifles (with accessories and ammo) would be a nice collection.

In reality though my friend,,,
Would this be for him or for you?

Aarond

.

mtlucas0311 · April 24, 2016, 11:19 AM

Quote:

I bought 3 guns for $500.

Got it, I'd pry have done the same thing. Years ago I bought a low number 1903 Springfield because it was an Arsenal refurb with all new parts. The only thing that wasn't new was the receiver itself. I found a nice 03A3 receiver & handguard and transferred all the parts. I now use that rifle for CMP matches.

Boogershooter · April 24, 2016, 10:37 PM

The 32-20 was for the wife. The other two were for my son. In the last 5 years 90% of guns purchased around my house was for the wife and kids. I have used the kids for an excuse to buy guns before but the wife got wise to that. She picks most all of her guns out now. Honestly I have never seen all of my grandfather's guns. Some were donated or on loan before I was ever born. He collected wwI thru wwII. My father had a bit older taste and collected mostly civil war but had a very fine revolutionary period collection. I inherited both collection's. I truely don't know what all I have as its not all at my house. Been working on it for over a year. I'm definitely not as knowledgeable as I would like to be.

January 9, 2016, 08:44 AM	#35
springer99 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2008 Posts: 355	"but he's into WWII right now" I've always felt that any collection is more meaningful when is has a larger meaning than just a bunch of guns. Don't just buy guns that are cheap, or all you can say is that this was a cheap gun collection. If you were in the service, how about collecting all the guns that YOU used or were in world service at the time. Otherwise pick a period in history that interests you and focus first on obtaining all major arms used during that time. It's always more interesting when the collection can also lead to some story telling. Last edited by springer99; January 9, 2016 at 08:52 PM.

January 9, 2016, 08:29 PM	#38
springer99 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2008 Posts: 355	Kilimanjaro - "Most veterans were in the service during the M16/full auto days, can't build much of a collection on that basis, unless you're doing handguns only or are very well heeled." Now you're making me feel pretty old. Actually, I was in during the early Nam years, but believe it or not, the first weapon I was issued was an M1. I finally graduated to the M14 and never carried the M16 at all. In the late '60's, it was surprising how many WWII and Korean era arms were still in heavy use on all sides. late 19th century and WWI arms are also a very interesting era, having a lot of transitioning arms from single shots, with many action types to some good bolt actions arms that made it right thru WWII. Not too expensive to collect either in many cases. Last edited by springer99; January 9, 2016 at 09:49 PM.

April 24, 2016, 10:53 AM	#47
aarondhgraham Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma Posts: 8,638	One from each major WW-II power be very cool,,, When I was a kid and we could order these rifles through the mail,,, I wanted one rifle from each major country,,, Something like this list. US - M1 Garand (or to stay with bolts a 1917 Springfield) Japan - Arisaka (6.5mm or 7.7mm) Great Britain - Lee Enfield Germany - K98 Mauser Italy - Carcano carbine Russia - Mosin Nagant You would still be looking at 2 to 4 grand,,, But those rifles (with accessories and ammo) would be a nice collection. In reality though my friend,,, Would this be for him or for you? Aarond . __________________ Never ever give an enemy the advantage of a verbal threat. Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once. Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it? Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time) Last edited by aarondhgraham; April 25, 2016 at 08:55 AM.

December 24, 2015, 12:18 AM	#26
Boogershooter Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2014 Posts: 645	Highpower forgive me for a bad memory but I've got to ask about the 4th and 5th rifles from the left. The 4th looks like a Springfield and the 5th looks like a 2 band Enfield. Please correct me if I'm wrong and I would also like to know if those are repro's or originals.

December 24, 2015, 02:53 PM	#27
highpower3006 Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2011 Location: Savannah TN Posts: 1,220	The fourth one from the left is a 1861 Springfield made in 1862 and the fifth one over is an 1884 Trapdoor made in 1890.

December 24, 2015, 11:02 PM	#28
Boogershooter Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2014 Posts: 645	Very nice collection. I have a very nice collection of civil war guns my father left me. A original Spencer was the crown of this collection I believe if my memory serves me correctly.

December 25, 2015, 10:53 AM	#29
mtlucas0311 Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: Shelby Township MI Posts: 125	Everyone has their own interests and motivations when it comes to what they like about milsurp rifles, but you said your son is starting to shoot so I'll share my perspective as a collector and service rifle shooter. As others have mentioned, a Garand from the CMP should be your first order of business, service grade if you want an all GI gun, one of the CMP specials if you want a "like new" Garand. I say this because the Garands WILL be gone sometime in the near future, and prices will likely jump up significantly. Plus, a CMP Garand hasn't been cherry picked of its desirable parts. I think you mentioned earlier that you were looking at an "all matching Garand". The overwhelming majority of Garands out there have been overhauled multiple times. Many people who buy a Garand set out to correct it with matching parts (myself included I must admit). It takes a very experienced eye to catch every little neuonce of every little part. And even if everything is "correct" it doesn't mean it's original. When starting out, I'd recommend just getting a nice service grade rifle from the CMP. There's no better deal out there, and there's no concern of paying a premium for a corrected rifle. That said with respect to Garands, I would pass on all the moisins, carcanos, sks's, etc. for now. I know a lot of people like them, but I just don't find them to be very accurate (with the exception of some cast bullet shooters who've invested a bunch of time and research). There's a reason you just don't see many on the firing line at the vintage rifle matches. While I agree the glory days are gone, there are still very high quality, accurate rifles out there. In my opinion, the Swedish mausers, Swiss 1911's/K31's, and British No.4 mk I/II's are the best deals out there. Excellent quality examples can still be found for around $300 with some digging and if you push it to $400 it's pretty easy to find a really nice rifle. I'd love to include the 1903's, 1903A3's, and M1917's, but they're now commanding over $600 on a good day, and $800 on places like Gunbroker.

December 25, 2015, 09:16 PM	#30
Boogershooter Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2014 Posts: 645	I've been on cmp and there is none available according to their site. First weekend of January there will be a good gunshow. He has a Lil money saved up and got a Lil bit more for christmas. I will match what he has and see what we can come up with. Thanks for all the help and info. Keep it coming please.

December 25, 2015, 10:26 PM	#31
mtlucas0311 Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: Shelby Township MI Posts: 125	Not sure if you were looking at the store reports or what? They look available to me via mail order, which is pry your best bet. The racks at the stores have been pretty dry of service grades in the last few years compared to say, 5 years ago. Here's a link right to the rifle sales page: http://thecmp.org/cmp_sales/rifle_sales/m1-garand/ Service grades are $730 shipped, and about half way down the page. Special grades are $1,030 shipped and right below the service grades. If a Garand is what your after, you'll never find the bang for your buck at a gunshow like you will mail ordering one from the CMP. Regards, Mike

January 8, 2016, 10:09 PM	#32
Boogershooter Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2014 Posts: 645	I'm headed to a gunshow in the morning. Hopefully we will leave the show with atleast 2 maybe 3 rifles. He has $300 and I'm a sucker when my kids eyes light up so what is the best bang for the buck going right now?

January 8, 2016, 11:26 PM	#33
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 3,963	The Lee-Enfield is still available in nice condition, and the SKS. Don't be surprised to come home with just one or two rifles for all your money. Condition is everthing. If you find a nice US Krag, Springfield 1903, or M1917 for a decent price, buy it and be good for the day. A nice British P13 would be another one. Look for good metal and wood.

January 9, 2016, 12:02 AM	#34
Boogershooter Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2014 Posts: 645	He will likely spend his coin quickly and I will look thru the rest of the show. He will buy his first and I will likely get the second. I have several sks's he can choose from already but he's into WWII right now so it will likely be both bolt guns in the morning.

January 9, 2016, 07:34 PM	#36
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 3,963	Most veterans were in the service during the M16/full auto days, can't build much of a collection on that basis, unless you're doing handguns only or are very well heeled. WWII themes are good, Korea as well, that just WWII updated a bit. WWI is good, but guns are scarce and expensive. One main battle rifle from each of the WWII belligerants would be a good starting point, US, UK, Germany, Italy, Japan, Finland, Russia. Then get into the minor players, like France, Holland, Poland, Hungary, etc., and even into important Neutrals like Turkey, Spain, Switzerland, Sweden. Both sides spent a lot of money and effort keeping the neutrals out of the war or courting them to join it on their side. The Commonwealth had Canada, Australia, and India as major allies, all these had their own rifles. The No. 5 Lee-Enfield was used in the Burma/SE Asia theater exclusively.

January 9, 2016, 07:40 PM	#37
Boogershooter Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2014 Posts: 645	Very poor excuse for a gunshow today. Very few examples for him to look at. I picked up a couple nice guns but none in the c&r category. There will be another show next month from a different company.

April 21, 2016, 05:00 PM	#39
Boogershooter Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2014 Posts: 645	Well I finally got a chance to pick him up a couple rifles today. Picked up a 03A3, and a remington rolling block chambered in .43 Spanish. The 03 is a national ordinance refurb and looks brand new. I'm still searching for some .43 ammo. It came with bayonet and scabbard. If anybody has any helpful info on this argentine rifle I certainly would appreciate it. I got a marlin 1894 in 32-20 in the deal for the ol lady. All 3 for a very good deal. Sry I can't post pics.

April 21, 2016, 06:38 PM	#40
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 3,963	You might luck out with .43 Spanish at Buffalo Arms in Idaho, they will have brass and bullets, too. I've never seen it except as an antique, I had to pony up for a Lee loader set for my .43 Danish Rolling Block. That bayonet and scabbard are worth a couple bucks, alone. The rifle was used by Argentina in the series of wars there, Paraquay, Uruguay, and Argentina were pretty much constantly at war for a couple of decades. They all went from ally to belligerent with each other at the drop of a hat. I don't remember the basic casus belli, territory or something, or perhaps just Latin pride.

April 21, 2016, 06:45 PM	#41
Boogershooter Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2014 Posts: 645	Only markings on the rrb are on the tang. E Remington and sons followed by 2 rows of dates. Very hard to read even with magnifying glass. I found some ammo from Buffalo arms. I believe the ammo is worth more than the gun lol. I havnt found anywhere on the Web about safety issues with this gun so if nobody here has any I will be shooting it when the ammo comes in. Then locking it in the safe til he gets a Lil older. After he cleans it of course.

April 21, 2016, 06:52 PM	#42
Boogershooter Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2014 Posts: 645	Thanks kil, I've been pulling up old reads on the gun. Havnt found any value estimates yet but my son looked at it and said " really dad-another teddy Roosevelt gun?" I guess he's been in my bedroom a Lil too much. He's young and learning.

April 21, 2016, 08:16 PM	#43
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 3,963	He needs to see the films [I]Rough Riders, The Wind and the Lion[I], he'll change his tune about TR-era rifles.

April 24, 2016, 02:43 AM	#44
Boogershooter Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2014 Posts: 645	I really was expecting some warnings about the national ordinance 03A3. I've heard of a few cases where 4 or 5 of the cast failing. If memory serves correctly they were all very close in time frame and area. In the back of my mind I wondered about the possibility of those guns going thru the same shop because of the close proximity of time and area. Havnt heard of any blowing up in recent years.

April 24, 2016, 08:30 AM	#45
mtlucas0311 Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: Shelby Township MI Posts: 125	If you knew National Ordnance receivers were terds, why did you buy it? Are the GI parts in exceptional condition to transfer to a GI receiver? Was it so cheap it was a deal for parts alone?

April 24, 2016, 09:48 AM	#46
Boogershooter Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2014 Posts: 645	I bought 3 guns for $500. The 03a3 was bought to put in my son's collection. The gun looks brand new and if he never shoots it, it's still a nice representation of a classic. I have several all originals in my grandfather's collection in which my kids will inherit one day. As of now alot of them are on loan to museums. The other two guns were a remington and sons rolling block chambered in 43 spanish and a marlin 1894 in 32-20. For 500 why not bring all 3 home? He's only 9 and it will be awhile before he can shoot most of these.

April 24, 2016, 10:37 PM	#49
Boogershooter Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2014 Posts: 645	The 32-20 was for the wife. The other two were for my son. In the last 5 years 90% of guns purchased around my house was for the wife and kids. I have used the kids for an excuse to buy guns before but the wife got wise to that. She picks most all of her guns out now. Honestly I have never seen all of my grandfather's guns. Some were donated or on loan before I was ever born. He collected wwI thru wwII. My father had a bit older taste and collected mostly civil war but had a very fine revolutionary period collection. I inherited both collection's. I truely don't know what all I have as its not all at my house. Been working on it for over a year. I'm definitely not as knowledgeable as I would like to be.