Castle doc and a stand your ground law

markj · March 10, 2011, 05:25 PM

seems to be needed in Iowa.

http://www.wowt.com/home/headlines/O...117637483.html

Quote:

Hyde said as Chapin continued moving toward him. Hyde was backed into the kitchen. “And I felt like my life was in danger. I had the firearm and he was bigger than me and I just knew what he was capable of.”

Hyde then fired the fatal shot. “I'm not a killer. I know that I should have done things differently, but all I could think about at that time was to protect her.”

Quote:

Iowa's Castle Doctrine says it's your duty to retreat except if you're in your own home. But the Pottawattamie County Attorney says deadly force wasn't authorized in this situation because the victim was invited in.

Be careful, know the laws. I was unaware of this law.

Quote:

A "Stand Your Ground” bill will be debated in the Iowa Legislature next week. Representative Mark Brandenburg says he supports it as a way to provide adequate protection for citizens. Nebraska doesn't have such law, either.

**Aguila Blanca** · March 10, 2011, 05:56 PM

Moral: Never invite anyone into your home.

Although in reality I disagree with the DA on this. No sane person would invite someone into their home with the expectation of being assaulted. If someone whom I have allowed into my home decides to attack me, AFAIK I still have a legal, ethical and moral right to defend myself by whatever means are necessary and appropriate.

Bartholomew Roberts · March 10, 2011, 05:59 PM

Neither one would have helped the shooter in this case. Castle Doctrine laws typically only protect against people who forcibly and unlawfully enter your home. This person was invited in as a guest according to the story.

Stand your ground laws remove the duty to retreat, if you can do so safely. The shooter in this case did retreat into the kitchen before firing. From the news report:

Quote:

Iowa's Castle Doctrine says it's your duty to retreat except if you're in your own home. But the Pottawattamie County Attorney says deadly force wasn't authorized in this situation because the victim was invited in. Iowa doesn't have a "Stand Your Ground" law which means a homeowner has the right to defend themselves without announcing their intent to use deadly force.

I'm not familiar with Iowa law; but most states have never had any duty to retreat inside your own home. Some states (and apparently Iowa is one of them) do take the view that if you invite someone into your home, you do have a duty to retreat before you use lethal force against them.

Well, just peeked at Iowa law... and wow... not great self defense law. Iowa has no statutory "Castle Doctrine" or "Stand Your Ground" at all. The entire self-defense statute seems to be summed up as:

"704.1 Reasonable force.
"Reasonable force" is that force and no more which a reasonable person, in like circumstances, would judge to be necessary to prevent an injury or loss and can include deadly force if it is reasonable to believe that such force is necessary to avoid injury or risk to one's life or safety or the life or safety of another, or it is reasonable to believe that such force is necessary to resist a like force or threat. Reasonable force, including deadly force, may be used even if an alternative course of action is available if the alternative entails a risk to life or safety, or the life or safety of a third party, or requires one to abandon or retreat from one's dwelling or place of business or employment."

I'm not familiar with Iowa law or case law interpreting this; but just looking at the statutes, it seems the shooter would not have been required to retreat from his home; but would have been required to retreat inside the home so long as he could do so safely. If he could not retreat safely or had tried, then he could use "reasonable force."

"704.3 Defense of self or another.
A person is justified in the use of reasonable force when the person reasonably believes that such force is necessary to defend oneself or another from any imminent use of unlawful force."

In another odd bit of law, it seems that less-lethal munitions are considered deadly force in Iowa ess[/i] they are wielded by a police officer in which case they are no longer deadly force.

markj · March 11, 2011, 04:48 PM

Quote:

not great self defense law

Yes this istrue. But the laws can be changed and they will be. We voted the right folks in this time. The carry law was changed so everyone can get the permit, some counties were impossible to get one. Everyone needs to keep pushing their law makers or vote them out.

Didja see we voted some judges out? High court they were, now gone, too liberal.

It will get better, soon too.

aarondhgraham · March 11, 2011, 05:07 PM

Quote:

but most states have never had any duty to retreat inside your own home.

California law required you to flee your house if possible,,,
Basically if the room you were in had a window,,,
You should have used it to escape.

They (at least up to 1996) have no castle doctrine.

When the chief of Police at my wife's station told me this,,,
I made the decision then and there to leave that state.

Gone in less than 6 months,,,
Never looked back.

Aarond

**Aguila Blanca** · March 11, 2011, 05:29 PM

Not sure, but I believe Massachusetts (that bastion of liberty!) also requires retreat within your own home. Of course, Massachusetts is also one of the few original states whose state constitution specifically links the RKBA to defense of the state -- no personal defense allowed.

MLeake · March 11, 2011, 06:19 PM

... during Spring Break time-frame of 1987 or 1988, where a woman was charged with manslaughter for hitting a burglar over the head with a kid's gumball machine.

He'd broken in during the night. Startled and scared, she grabbed the first thing at hand. When he came around the corner, she hit him.

IIRC, she was charged because she ambushed him, instead of retreating or even leaving the house.

I don't remember how that ultimately turned out, but I do remember the very bad taste it left in my mouth for the criminal justice system in MA.

beex215 · March 11, 2011, 06:54 PM

lets just leave our doors open so they can steal all our stuff. when they are at it, run away.

thrgunsmith · March 12, 2011, 03:10 PM

Quote:

California law required you to flee your house if possible,,,
Basically if the room you were in had a window,,,
You should have used it to escape.

They (at least up to 1996) have no castle doctrine.

I hear this all the time, I have yet to see any citation of actual CA penal code for this.

gc70 · March 12, 2011, 03:30 PM

Part of the story doesn't look very good for the shooter.

Quote:

Chapin pulled the sleeping girl from a bedroom at Hyde's home near Apache and Comanche streets east of Lake Manawa just before 11:30 p.m., so Chapin and the woman visiting Hyde could have the bedroom.

Was the shooter really defending the girl, or was he upset at his buddy and his honey (the girl's mother)?

**OldMarksman** · March 12, 2011, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Not sure, but I believe Massachusetts (that bastion of liberty!) also requires retreat within your own home.

No longer true within the dwelling.

Kreyzhorse · March 12, 2011, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Was the shooter really defending the girl, or was he upset at his buddy and his honey (the girl's mother)?

I'm with you on this. Just from the story, I'm not buying that this was a SD situation at all. This was a may have been several things, but SD or the Castle Doctrine it was not.

markj · March 14, 2011, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Was the shooter really defending the girl, or was he upset at his buddy and his honey (the girl's mother)?

I read up on some new details today, the gal was the shooters step brothers ex wife she was staying there, she brought the guy with her that grabbed the child. Wierd situation, but we are talking about a trailor park down by the railroad tracks (really I am not making this up)and the porer part of town. Drugs are prevalent in them places. The guy was hot had done time in prison, jail, etc. He wasnt a good guy.

The main point that gets me is the law, which needs to be changed. We have been writting letters and sending emails as a law is being considered on the very subject in a couple weeks.

Guy was shot in the foot and the head so one warning shot wasnt a warning after all, this might have increased the guys anger and maybe is why he continued his attack?

Be carefull, I sure am.

March 11, 2011, 06:19 PM	#7
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	I remember a case in Massachusetts... ... during Spring Break time-frame of 1987 or 1988, where a woman was charged with manslaughter for hitting a burglar over the head with a kid's gumball machine. He'd broken in during the night. Startled and scared, she grabbed the first thing at hand. When he came around the corner, she hit him. IIRC, she was charged because she ambushed him, instead of retreating or even leaving the house. I don't remember how that ultimately turned out, but I do remember the very bad taste it left in my mouth for the criminal justice system in MA.

March 10, 2011, 05:56 PM	#2
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,468	Moral: Never invite anyone into your home. Although in reality I disagree with the DA on this. No sane person would invite someone into their home with the expectation of being assaulted. If someone whom I have allowed into my home decides to attack me, AFAIK I still have a legal, ethical and moral right to defend myself by whatever means are necessary and appropriate.

March 11, 2011, 05:29 PM	#6
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,468	Not sure, but I believe Massachusetts (that bastion of liberty!) also requires retreat within your own home. Of course, Massachusetts is also one of the few original states whose state constitution specifically links the RKBA to defense of the state -- no personal defense allowed.

March 11, 2011, 06:54 PM	#8
beex215 Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2010 Posts: 317	lets just leave our doors open so they can steal all our stuff. when they are at it, run away.