WANTED: rifle exactly like the Jungle Carbine

GoCart · September 26, 2008, 12:58 PM

While hunting for the perfect deer hunting rifle I came upon the jungle carbine recently and instantly fell in love. I went out to the local shop and spoke to the keeper, held it in my hands, fell in love. Somewhere between going to the bank and getting back to the store I checked the internet and learned all about the "wandering zero", the terrible kick, massive muzzle flash, etc. DAMN

This gun looks and feels great but apparently has trouble performing its primary function.

Long story short I am looking for something EXACTLY like the Jungle Carbine that can shoot straight.

The removable/exposed box mag is gorgeous and very few bolt action rifles I have found have this set up. I also want something compact for driving through swamps and thick brush. The longest shot I will get the opportunity for will be upwards of 250 yrds on a whitetail or a black bear. Basically I want a rifle that is compact, bolt action, has EXPOSED/removable box magazine, and I can attach a scope as well.

I am calling out to more experienced gun enthusiasts for help. Any ideas? Any pics of a good rig fitting this description?

Scorch · September 26, 2008, 01:14 PM

Quote:

This gun looks and feels great but apparently has trouble performing its primary function.

If by "Jungle Carbine" you are referring to a Lee-Enfield, then you are right, it will be limited to about 100 yds due to its penchant for scattering rounds randomly. You could always find a Rem 700 with a detachable box magazine, or buy a regular Rem 700 or a Savage and add the detachable box.

wayne in boca · September 26, 2008, 01:18 PM

The wandering zero is a myth.The cone-shaped doohickey on the muzzle is,guess what,a flashhider.The recoil is real,but only a girly-man would consider it excessive.I have a No. 5 carbine that I bought in 1969,and I bought it for a deer rifle.Probably shot 40 deer and hogs with it.Please don't drill and tap an original No. 5 for a scope.They are scarce pieces of history,and deserve better.My carbine will not reliably feed more than 5 rounds of soft-tipped ammo at once ,although it has a ten round mag.The feed ramp angle is for full metal jacket bullets,and the bullet tips dig in too much when the magazine spring gets compressed.

VonFireball · September 26, 2008, 02:03 PM

The recoil has something to do with that brass buttplate.

I just don't get it really.

It works so good for crushing enemy skulls.

Why does it hurt when I shoot it?

zippy13 · September 26, 2008, 04:35 PM

So, you liked the Jungle Carbine (Lee Enfield No. 5 Mk I), you're not alone; but, you have concerns about it's accuracy and recoil. Have you looked at is progenitor, the No. 4 Mk I rifle, it's 4-inches longer. Sporterized versions of various Enfields are plentiful. Some range time, before you make your purchase, will tell you if a specific candidate is acceptable.

No. 5 Mk I

No. 4 Mk I

Various Sporters

cat9x · September 26, 2008, 04:41 PM

Gibbs Summit / Frontier 45-70 Gov. You can find these on gunbroker from time to time. 3 round magazine.

L_Killkenny · September 26, 2008, 04:49 PM

You can sometimes find "fake" Jungle Carbines around (converted #4's). As a matter of fact, it may be easier to find a fake than the real thing. The Problem? Most gun dealers are trying to sell the fakes off a originals and price them the same. First thing to remember, all Jungle Carbines are 303 brit. A lot of the fakes are converted .308's. You can also convert a #4 over yourself. The only work that a smith might have to do is cut the barrel and re-mount the front site.

I too like the Jungle Carbines and wouldn't mind having a gun similar. 99% of the older military bolt guns are way, way too long/heavy/ugly for anything I'd want. But if you watch the movie "the mummy" they show a horseman using a short Turkish Mauser that looks very handy. It also looks like the bolt is already "bent over" so avoiding a scope would be easy.

LK

bufordtjustice · September 26, 2008, 06:51 PM

I shoot a steyr scout that is a phenomenal rifle...expensive though. If money isn't a problem, get one of those. It meets all your requirements. Savage makes a scout rifle that you can order through their custom shop. It will be lots cheaper. I put 8 rds in a 2"x2'" target at 100 yards yesterday. That is using the standard IER scope.

http://www.frfrogspad.com/

Check out this websites. I post it from time to time to help "convert" people.

4thPointofContact · September 26, 2008, 08:06 PM

I shoot a "jungle-ized" Ishapore 2A1. It's a 7.62x51 Nato Ishapore cut down to jungle specs. 10-12 rounds of .308 in a detachable magazine. Mine sports an ATI stock (I really should have left the wooden one as it was, but oh well) and has a XS Sight Systems scout scope mount.

I haven't found the recoil at all objectionable, if anything, I think the recoil is less than my semiauto Mossberg.

Tikirocker · September 26, 2008, 08:38 PM

I am a mod of a large Lee Enfield forum elsewhere ... I have a sticky designed to answer most questions on the No5 Mk1 rifle as well as a serial number survey ... you will find info on the Wandering Zero myth in the FAQ section at the top.

The No5 Mk1 rifle is a superb rifle and is accurate out to 600 yards being shot by anybody who knows what they are doing; they were designed for close combat Jungle Warfare and first employed in Burma - my grandfather used one in the Royal Sussex Regiment.

Here is mine ...

In some instances the No5 Mk1 was found to lose it's zero but this was not broad spectrum and even British armourers such as Peter Laidler admit that most No5's were right as rain. What is believed to have been the culprit in some rifles was actually environmental conditions, another reason why armourers doing tests back in the UK could not replicate the wandering zero ... the sheer amount of rain, damp and humidity in the Burma jungles had an effect on the furniture and would cause it to expand and contract during combat. What this constant soaking and drying out does is shift the natural bedding of the rifle which ultimate puts pressure on the barrel and receiver in different places resulting in wandering zero in some cases.

Every owner of a No5 Mk1 I speak to has an accurate rifle and cannot replicate the wandering zero - the Malaysians held on to their No5 rifles right up into the 80's and got around the problem by varnishing the furniture to stop moisture from entering the grain. Later in the No5 production the British added a fore end cap to the No5 to stop moisture entering the end grain also, this however was only seriously introduced after the war in early 46 but at this time the Malaysian Emergency would run for another 10 years where the No5 rifle would do plenty more work in the field.

The internet abounds with misinformation about Enfield's, better you get your information from Enfield collectors than anywhere else. The No5 Mk1 is my personal favourite hunting/wilderness gun and the one I would grab in a bug out.

http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/vie...p?f=27&t=52472

Cheers, TR.

P.S ... No5's still do their job here in Australia ...

bcarver · September 26, 2008, 08:43 PM

The steyr would be my first pick.
A project gun would be a Rem 700. Add a Kwik Klip. Cut the barrel.

elkman06 · September 26, 2008, 09:07 PM

Hmm, Admittedly, low experience opinion here. I have shot two enfields in .303. They both shot just like a 30/30. Good 100-150yd rifle soooo. Buy a 30/30 if you want something similar.
elkman06

T. O'Heir · September 26, 2008, 09:28 PM

"...recoil has something to do with that brass buttplate..." Not on a No. 4. It has to do with the narrow butt stock. The felt recoil on a No. 5 is from the relatively light weight and to some extent that silly 'india rubber' recoil pad. Think hockey puck or lacroose ball.
Knew a guy who used a No. 5 for moose hunting for eons. And another guy who swaers by his bubba'd No. 4. Check the headspace and use it. You won't be getting into any fire fights with Bambi anyway.

DnPRK · September 26, 2008, 10:17 PM

Let's see...

Bolt action?
Handy carbine length with 18" barrel?
Exposed detachable box magazine?
Able to mount a scope to shoot 250+ yards?
But without the wandering zero problem?
And in commonly available 308 Winchester?

Sounds like a Remington 788 carbine.

Tikirocker · September 26, 2008, 10:29 PM

Quote:

But without the wandering zero problem?

That's a No5 rifle too ...

Scribe · September 27, 2008, 03:59 AM

Have a look at the AIA M10A. This is a modern built Lee Enfield Action in jungle carbine format in 7.62 X 39 which takes AK magazines. Their No4 MKIV is very nice too. A 7.62 X 51 that takes M14 magazines. Both use a latch magazine release. Unlike the original Enfields they are designed to use the detachable magazine. On the originals the magazine was designed to be replaceable if damaged rather than changed as part of the reload.
I am just getting into Lee Enfields. I've recently aquired a very nice No4 MKII. So far I've only put about 30 rounds through it.

Tikirocker · September 27, 2008, 04:38 AM

The AIA ( Australian International Arms ) rifles are made in Australia and I believe distributed in the U.S these days ... previously they only had a deal through MARSTAR in Canada. If you do decide to go with the M10 variety understand that they are a 7.62 ( Not .303 ) and quite heavy as a brush gun goes ... they are teak stocked and have a number of other features in the re-working of the receiver to make them a good deal heavier than an original No5 Mk1. I have handled most in the AIA series and can recommend them as an alternative but found their weight less practical than an original.

Koveras · September 27, 2008, 06:33 AM

If you can find one used, a Gibbs Extreme Quest II might fit your desires. It is based on the Ishapore Enfield 2A action.

oneoftwenty7.62 · September 27, 2008, 08:02 AM

take a look at the CZ line of rifles......have the features you are looking for.
I have one of the CZ 527 carbines..in 223......and they are available in other calibers.

MJ1 · September 27, 2008, 09:57 AM

Leif · September 27, 2008, 10:02 AM

I never thought that the Jungle Carbine recoil was that bad.

MJ1, what is that? It looks like a combination of a sporterized Enfield T and a Jungle Carbine stock with a cheek riser strapped to it.

MJ1 · September 27, 2008, 10:23 AM

ebay phony #5 stock I got s(rewed on.

Leif · September 27, 2008, 07:08 PM

That clarifies matters, thanks. How much of that rifle did you assemble yourself?

Sarge · September 27, 2008, 07:31 PM

I've had a couple over the years and one of them had a scope on it. While I never noticed the zero wandering, neither of mine were what you'd call accurate; roughly baseball-sized 5-shot groups at 100 yards with Remington factory loads.

This of course doesn't hurt them as a hunting rifle, to 200 yards or so. I do recall both of mine thumping me a bit and I'm not particularly recoil-sensitive.

Great post & pics, Tiki.

Ignition Override · September 27, 2008, 08:13 PM

Tikirocker:

Just curious-how does the recoil compare to a MN 44? I'm a skinny 53 year-old who shoots a 44 with no recoil pad and rarely have any bruise after forty rounds in about thirty-forty five minutes. My brother's regular LE kicks about the same as the MN.

By the way, your Jungle Carbine is a real 'babe'. They are one of the best-looking classic combat rifles I've ever cradled in my hands.
It is to other combat rifles what Nicole Kidman is to the 'Female Race'.

September 26, 2008, 12:58 PM	#1
GoCart Member Join Date: September 26, 2008 Posts: 47	WANTED: rifle exactly like the Jungle Carbine While hunting for the perfect deer hunting rifle I came upon the jungle carbine recently and instantly fell in love. I went out to the local shop and spoke to the keeper, held it in my hands, fell in love. Somewhere between going to the bank and getting back to the store I checked the internet and learned all about the "wandering zero", the terrible kick, massive muzzle flash, etc. DAMN This gun looks and feels great but apparently has trouble performing its primary function. Long story short I am looking for something EXACTLY like the Jungle Carbine that can shoot straight. The removable/exposed box mag is gorgeous and very few bolt action rifles I have found have this set up. I also want something compact for driving through swamps and thick brush. The longest shot I will get the opportunity for will be upwards of 250 yrds on a whitetail or a black bear. Basically I want a rifle that is compact, bolt action, has EXPOSED/removable box magazine, and I can attach a scope as well. I am calling out to more experienced gun enthusiasts for help. Any ideas? Any pics of a good rig fitting this description?

September 26, 2008, 08:38 PM	#10
Tikirocker Senior Member Join Date: May 11, 2007 Location: NSW, Australia Posts: 909	Total myth ... I am a mod of a large Lee Enfield forum elsewhere ... I have a sticky designed to answer most questions on the No5 Mk1 rifle as well as a serial number survey ... you will find info on the Wandering Zero myth in the FAQ section at the top. The No5 Mk1 rifle is a superb rifle and is accurate out to 600 yards being shot by anybody who knows what they are doing; they were designed for close combat Jungle Warfare and first employed in Burma - my grandfather used one in the Royal Sussex Regiment. Here is mine ... In some instances the No5 Mk1 was found to lose it's zero but this was not broad spectrum and even British armourers such as Peter Laidler admit that most No5's were right as rain. What is believed to have been the culprit in some rifles was actually environmental conditions, another reason why armourers doing tests back in the UK could not replicate the wandering zero ... the sheer amount of rain, damp and humidity in the Burma jungles had an effect on the furniture and would cause it to expand and contract during combat. What this constant soaking and drying out does is shift the natural bedding of the rifle which ultimate puts pressure on the barrel and receiver in different places resulting in wandering zero in some cases. Every owner of a No5 Mk1 I speak to has an accurate rifle and cannot replicate the wandering zero - the Malaysians held on to their No5 rifles right up into the 80's and got around the problem by varnishing the furniture to stop moisture from entering the grain. Later in the No5 production the British added a fore end cap to the No5 to stop moisture entering the end grain also, this however was only seriously introduced after the war in early 46 but at this time the Malaysian Emergency would run for another 10 years where the No5 rifle would do plenty more work in the field. The internet abounds with misinformation about Enfield's, better you get your information from Enfield collectors than anywhere else. The No5 Mk1 is my personal favourite hunting/wilderness gun and the one I would grab in a bug out. http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/vie...p?f=27&t=52472 Cheers, TR. P.S ... No5's still do their job here in Australia ... __________________ The Lee Enfield forums - http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewforum.php?f=27 Surplus Rifle Forums - http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/index.php

September 26, 2008, 08:43 PM	#11
bcarver Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2007 Location: Jackson,Mississippi Posts: 838	1+ on steyr The steyr would be my first pick. A project gun would be a Rem 700. Add a Kwik Klip. Cut the barrel.

September 26, 2008, 09:07 PM	#12
elkman06 Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2006 Location: Wyoming Posts: 885	Hmm, Admittedly, low experience opinion here. I have shot two enfields in .303. They both shot just like a 30/30. Good 100-150yd rifle soooo. Buy a 30/30 if you want something similar. elkman06 __________________ "The right of the citizens to bear arms in the defense of themselves and of the state shall not be denied." Wyoming Constitution Article 1, Sec24 "Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6"

September 26, 2008, 09:28 PM	#13
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...recoil has something to do with that brass buttplate..." Not on a No. 4. It has to do with the narrow butt stock. The felt recoil on a No. 5 is from the relatively light weight and to some extent that silly 'india rubber' recoil pad. Think hockey puck or lacroose ball. Knew a guy who used a No. 5 for moose hunting for eons. And another guy who swaers by his bubba'd No. 4. Check the headspace and use it. You won't be getting into any fire fights with Bambi anyway. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

September 26, 2008, 01:18 PM	#3
wayne in boca Senior Member Join Date: August 5, 2005 Posts: 345	The wandering zero is a myth.The cone-shaped doohickey on the muzzle is,guess what,a flashhider.The recoil is real,but only a girly-man would consider it excessive.I have a No. 5 carbine that I bought in 1969,and I bought it for a deer rifle.Probably shot 40 deer and hogs with it.Please don't drill and tap an original No. 5 for a scope.They are scarce pieces of history,and deserve better.My carbine will not reliably feed more than 5 rounds of soft-tipped ammo at once ,although it has a ten round mag.The feed ramp angle is for full metal jacket bullets,and the bullet tips dig in too much when the magazine spring gets compressed.

September 26, 2008, 02:03 PM	#4
VonFireball Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 354	The recoil has something to do with that brass buttplate. I just don't get it really. It works so good for crushing enemy skulls. Why does it hurt when I shoot it?

September 26, 2008, 04:35 PM	#5
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	So, you liked the Jungle Carbine (Lee Enfield No. 5 Mk I), you're not alone; but, you have concerns about it's accuracy and recoil. Have you looked at is progenitor, the No. 4 Mk I rifle, it's 4-inches longer. Sporterized versions of various Enfields are plentiful. Some range time, before you make your purchase, will tell you if a specific candidate is acceptable. No. 5 Mk I No. 4 Mk I Various Sporters

September 26, 2008, 04:41 PM	#6
cat9x Senior Member Join Date: September 17, 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 212	Gibbs Summit / Frontier 45-70 Gov. You can find these on gunbroker from time to time. 3 round magazine.

September 26, 2008, 04:49 PM	#7
L_Killkenny Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2007 Location: Iowa Posts: 2,676	You can sometimes find "fake" Jungle Carbines around (converted #4's). As a matter of fact, it may be easier to find a fake than the real thing. The Problem? Most gun dealers are trying to sell the fakes off a originals and price them the same. First thing to remember, all Jungle Carbines are 303 brit. A lot of the fakes are converted .308's. You can also convert a #4 over yourself. The only work that a smith might have to do is cut the barrel and re-mount the front site. I too like the Jungle Carbines and wouldn't mind having a gun similar. 99% of the older military bolt guns are way, way too long/heavy/ugly for anything I'd want. But if you watch the movie "the mummy" they show a horseman using a short Turkish Mauser that looks very handy. It also looks like the bolt is already "bent over" so avoiding a scope would be easy. LK

September 26, 2008, 06:51 PM	#8
bufordtjustice Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 2008 Posts: 279	I shoot a steyr scout that is a phenomenal rifle...expensive though. If money isn't a problem, get one of those. It meets all your requirements. Savage makes a scout rifle that you can order through their custom shop. It will be lots cheaper. I put 8 rds in a 2"x2'" target at 100 yards yesterday. That is using the standard IER scope. http://www.frfrogspad.com/ Check out this websites. I post it from time to time to help "convert" people.

September 26, 2008, 08:06 PM	#9
4thPointofContact Junior member Join Date: September 22, 2007 Posts: 197	I shoot a "jungle-ized" Ishapore 2A1. It's a 7.62x51 Nato Ishapore cut down to jungle specs. 10-12 rounds of .308 in a detachable magazine. Mine sports an ATI stock (I really should have left the wooden one as it was, but oh well) and has a XS Sight Systems scout scope mount. I haven't found the recoil at all objectionable, if anything, I think the recoil is less than my semiauto Mossberg.

September 26, 2008, 10:17 PM	#14
DnPRK Senior Member Join Date: August 24, 2001 Location: LC, Ca Posts: 1,917	Let's see... Bolt action? Handy carbine length with 18" barrel? Exposed detachable box magazine? Able to mount a scope to shoot 250+ yards? But without the wandering zero problem? And in commonly available 308 Winchester? Sounds like a Remington 788 carbine.

September 27, 2008, 03:59 AM	#16
Scribe Senior Member Join Date: July 29, 2005 Location: England Posts: 249	Go Cart Have a look at the AIA M10A. This is a modern built Lee Enfield Action in jungle carbine format in 7.62 X 39 which takes AK magazines. Their No4 MKIV is very nice too. A 7.62 X 51 that takes M14 magazines. Both use a latch magazine release. Unlike the original Enfields they are designed to use the detachable magazine. On the originals the magazine was designed to be replaceable if damaged rather than changed as part of the reload. I am just getting into Lee Enfields. I've recently aquired a very nice No4 MKII. So far I've only put about 30 rounds through it.

September 27, 2008, 04:38 AM	#17
Tikirocker Senior Member Join Date: May 11, 2007 Location: NSW, Australia Posts: 909	The AIA ( Australian International Arms ) rifles are made in Australia and I believe distributed in the U.S these days ... previously they only had a deal through MARSTAR in Canada. If you do decide to go with the M10 variety understand that they are a 7.62 ( Not .303 ) and quite heavy as a brush gun goes ... they are teak stocked and have a number of other features in the re-working of the receiver to make them a good deal heavier than an original No5 Mk1. I have handled most in the AIA series and can recommend them as an alternative but found their weight less practical than an original. __________________ The Lee Enfield forums - http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewforum.php?f=27 Surplus Rifle Forums - http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/index.php

September 27, 2008, 06:33 AM	#18
Koveras Member Join Date: April 6, 2002 Location: Oklahoma City, USA Posts: 68	If you can find one used, a Gibbs Extreme Quest II might fit your desires. It is based on the Ishapore Enfield 2A action.

September 27, 2008, 08:02 AM	#19
oneoftwenty7.62 Junior member Join Date: September 9, 2004 Posts: 19	carbines take a look at the CZ line of rifles......have the features you are looking for. I have one of the CZ 527 carbines..in 223......and they are available in other calibers.

September 27, 2008, 09:57 AM	#20
MJ1 Senior Member Join Date: August 10, 2008 Posts: 329	#5T

September 27, 2008, 10:02 AM	#21
Leif Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2005 Posts: 1,237	I never thought that the Jungle Carbine recoil was that bad. MJ1, what is that? It looks like a combination of a sporterized Enfield T and a Jungle Carbine stock with a cheek riser strapped to it.

September 27, 2008, 10:23 AM	#22
MJ1 Senior Member Join Date: August 10, 2008 Posts: 329	Bubba's 1945 #4T ebay phony #5 stock I got s(rewed on.

September 27, 2008, 07:08 PM	#23
Leif Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2005 Posts: 1,237	That clarifies matters, thanks. How much of that rifle did you assemble yourself?

September 27, 2008, 07:31 PM	#24
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	I've had a couple over the years and one of them had a scope on it. While I never noticed the zero wandering, neither of mine were what you'd call accurate; roughly baseball-sized 5-shot groups at 100 yards with Remington factory loads. This of course doesn't hurt them as a hunting rifle, to 200 yards or so. I do recall both of mine thumping me a bit and I'm not particularly recoil-sensitive. Great post & pics, Tiki. __________________ People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.

September 27, 2008, 08:13 PM	#25
Ignition Override Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2008 Location: About 20 nm from the Big Muddy Posts: 2,887	Tikirocker: Just curious-how does the recoil compare to a MN 44? I'm a skinny 53 year-old who shoots a 44 with no recoil pad and rarely have any bruise after forty rounds in about thirty-forty five minutes. My brother's regular LE kicks about the same as the MN. By the way, your Jungle Carbine is a real 'babe'. They are one of the best-looking classic combat rifles I've ever cradled in my hands. It is to other combat rifles what Nicole Kidman is to the 'Female Race'.