What causes this?

dsv424 · November 29, 2010, 08:15 PM

I have only reloaded this 45-70 Winchester case twice and as you can see there is a crack in it. The load was only mid-range and this is the second case I have noticed this occur. I realize Winchester cases are slightly thinner than either Starline or Remington cases but I don't think I should have this happen on just the second time I reload these cases. Has anyone else experienced this problem with Winchester cases? Could it be that I got a bad batch?[IMG]

[/IMG]

Doodlebugger45 · November 29, 2010, 08:42 PM

This is just a guess because I have not seen that happen before. But I notice kind of a groove or scratch of some kind that extends upwards from the obvious crack in your case. It could be that you have some kind of grit embedded in your sizing die and it is scratching your brass and creating a weak point which cracks on firing. Look at the other brass that didn't crack yet and see if you notice any kind of scratches on them. If so, you might have a tiny piece of sand or something in the sizing die. Sand can get into your sizing die from brass that has hit the ground. It only takes one tiny fragment of quartz in the die to do that.

If that is the case, I'm not certain that you can clean it out of the die. Maybe, but maybe not. Quartz is incredibly hard, nearly as hard as diamonds, certainly harder than steel. You might have to replace the sizing die.

Maybe others have seen this before and can provide more insight.

**Unclenick** · November 29, 2010, 08:43 PM

Either that or possibly something is scoring the brass badly on loading. Have you noticed any scratches on your ejected cases that weren't there when you put them in? Does it have any relationship to where the bottom of the bullet stops in the case? Doesn't look like it would unless you were loading something really heavy.

Scorch · November 30, 2010, 12:28 PM

Defect on the interior of the brass?

**Unclenick** · November 30, 2010, 01:28 PM

I'm wondering how he'll spot that without a borescope. The case is big enough that it might be clear under a flashlight. One of those little gooseneck white LEDs might be good for that inspection A dental pick or an improvised feeler might let him feel it.

DSV424: Any chance you could saw it in half to better see what you find on the inside? Also, stick your pinkie into the chamber and feel around or borescope it. Make sure the gun's OK.

engineermike · November 30, 2010, 01:37 PM

what brand of sizing die are you using and is this die fairly new, and have you noticed the scratches on your cases before you sized this/other cases.
? Looks like the scratches start at the mouth of the case.

dsv424 · November 30, 2010, 04:46 PM

I have Starline, Remington, and Winchester cases for this caliber and I have only had this problem with 2 of the Winchester cases. They are new Lee dies and I don't have any marks or scratches on any of my cases. I have now reloaded them all 3 times.

Gbro · November 30, 2010, 06:21 PM

It looks like you cleaned it up before taking the picture. Do you have any that just came out of the chamber and maybe 2 side by side to compare.
Also is it just the light or is the end of the case distorted. like maybe too heavy a crimp or jamed into the throat?
What is your case length?

dsv424 · November 30, 2010, 06:44 PM

Unfortunately, I had already tumbled, lubed, resized, and was preparing to trim them before I noticed it. I trim all my cases to 2.100. In addition, I do use a slightly heavy crimp on these rounds. Also, if you look close at each end of the crack it is blackened which would indicate gases did erupt out of the crack.

F. Guffey · December 1, 2010, 08:42 AM

Rifle new and just out of the box? Send it back.

If the rifle is old, very old, I would suspect a small cavity or bulge caused by rust, when the case is fired the case expands and fills the bulge, when the case is extracted the bulged case is 'reverse' sized. The first time the case if fired there should be a shinny spot where the bulge is located and if the case is indexed the hole should match the shinny spot. for cases that are not indexed there should be a shinny spot and a crack caused by the bulge.

I would be for removing the wood, if a case is stretching at the web the impending case head separation can be detected with an awl with a 90 degree bend near the end? There are plastic picks with bent heads that could be used if you think the awl is tougher than the metal of the chamber.

If the crack that could be caused by a small bulge in the chamber is not at the same place every time? We have just entered into the Twilight Zone.

Make a casting? Most mistakes made when casting the chamber are forgivable because of the low heat necessary to melt, I agree casting a chamber with a suspected bulge is not a good ideal, most advice given when suggesting 'make a chamber casting' is always given in one sentence or less, that is just enough information to get someone in trouble, sometimes the advise is given in a compound sentence like 'and then check the casting for head space, I can do that, I can not give you a good reason for doing it, it is the nature of Cerosafe.

F. Guffey

ammo.crafter · December 1, 2010, 09:43 AM

I experienced case scratches with 444 Marlin cases and found that the interior wall of the resizing die hard grit. The rifle chamber had no failure.
Very careful case cleaning, using high quality resizing lubricant and occasionally taking apart the resizing die and cleaning it completely erradicated the problem.

Hope it helps.

F. Guffey · December 1, 2010, 10:13 AM

If we were cutting glass or 'hardyboard' I would advise against scratches, with any kind of pressure scratches flatten and scratches do not stress the case, I sent a Winchester Model 70 back for repair because the chamber was ugly, cases removed had what looked like gouges almost the length of the chamber, I sized the ballooned/gouged cases and fired them in a non Weatherby rifle chambered in a non Weatherby chamber, after firing there was only a hint of the gouges left on the case, and, the cases fired in the non Weatherby chambered in the Model 70 without Resistance, and they informed me they would clean up the chamber by polishing, honing and or reaming the chamber, and I ask "How is any of that going to make the chamber smaller" and then they ask me "How do you know the chamber is too large in diameter and too long"

And I have never seen skid marks on a case from having fired x number of times.

F. Guffey

Edward Horton · December 1, 2010, 10:58 AM

Welcome to the new Corporate World where "money talks and quality walks".

Scratches have nothing to do with the problem, when the case was made from a brass button or pellet during one of the drawing operations a defect was created. This "thin spot" ruptured when the case was fired, and there is a reason "why" competitive shooters are buying cartridge cases made in Finland by Lapua who has better quality control.

30 years ago my 45-70 cases never did what happened above because Remington and Winchester still belonged to the parent company. Today they belong to a Wall Street investment company who just happens to like profits over quality control.

Below the forming steps for the .303 British cartridge case from the 1929 Textbook of Small Arms British War Office printing.

When you speed up the production line and lower quality control standards what happen to your case is the result. Harsh letters or emails to the company telling them your dissatisfaction "AND" including the link to your posted photo here "might" have positive results. (complaints seen world wide on the web)

engineermike · December 1, 2010, 12:30 PM

Yep,
I was leaning more toward a dirty die or a faulty die. I had a new die that made the cases look like they were fluted and it turned out to be an unpolished sizer die but Hornady replaced the die body and the replacement worked fine but that does not sound like that is the case here. Might try sending the case/cases back to the manufacturer and see if you get a response from them.

BigJimP · December 1, 2010, 01:26 PM

I think its likely an issue in terms of quality of the case - vs anything in the rifle.

But remember - none of the ammo mfg's have any interest in mfging a case that will let us reload it 15 times ( or even once for that matter ). They would much rather force us to buy new factory ammo. The fact that a case fails on 1st reload, or 2nd or 10th .... they believe, is no reflection on their quality control systems ....( in fact they're happy if they fail on a re-load / as long as they don't fail first time out of the factory box ).

I'm seeing that same type of failure ( almost identical to your photo ) in some Remington STS shotshell cases ( they're plastic / so they're different ) ---- but almost the identical split in the sidewall of the case after 2 or 3 reloads ....when 10 yrs ago / I was getting 25 reloads easy out of a new STS 12ga case.

Its a sign of the times .....

chiefr · December 1, 2010, 01:29 PM

I have seen this happen and with different carts. I have encountered this with 38spl and even 223mil brass. At one time, I can remember around 5% of a certain lot of 38 Spl 130gr PGU hardball had case splits in the middle during my active duty days. I can't remember lot numbers, but all the projectiles hit their mark and ejected w/o problems. It was well known at least in my range days, the defect was caused by the manufacturing process, not the firearm.

In all my days of shooting and range work, I have seen case splits like this with factory ammo, athough very rare.

F. Guffey · December 1, 2010, 02:16 PM

There is nothing like measuring before and after and being able to measure the case at the same point, before and after. Nothing like blaming the manufacturer, I have blind end micrometers, hole micrometers and inside and outside transfers calipers, in the manufacturing process of a case while is is being formed the case requires annealing as many as 5 times, the head of the case does not have the ability to stretch and recover like the mouth and shoulder. We do not know if the 45/70 is Government, lever action or Modern Rifle Design, again there is nothing like measuring before and after firiing AND again after sizing.

He says he has two cases that split (OR POPED A HOLE IN THE SIDE OF THE CASE), again, is the hole in both cases in the same place?

I am a big fan of cutting down on case travel.

F. Guffey

**Mike Irwin** · December 1, 2010, 03:24 PM

I've had cases occasionally fail like that as long as I've been reloading. I call them burn throughs.

Agree that it's a problem with manufacturing, normally a weak spot in the brass (maybe an inclusion) or bad annealing.

No rhyme or reason to it. I've had it happen to factory new ammo on its first firing, and I've had it happen to cases on their 20th reloading.

**Unclenick** · December 1, 2010, 04:13 PM

I don't know what forming sequence is current in the U.S or for Starline in particular. Lapua uses what Edward posted, above. In this country we formed the brass cups from discs punched from sheet brass on rolls originally, and Hatcher's Notebook has photos of that sequence. The heads were forged into the cups. There have been a couple of examples of case faults posted over the last couple of years where there are folds in and near the head indicating some of the overseas manufacturers for sure are still using that approach.

Apparently the disc approach is sensitive to flaws in the original disc, as Hatcher has an example of a disc cut with a little of the edge missing that turned into a split in the case. That missing bit apparently caused thinning or extreme unevenness in the draw.

I'd still like to see one of those cases sectioned 90° from the split to see what looking at if from behind reveals.

dsv424 · December 1, 2010, 08:08 PM

Thanks so much for all the input on this problem guys. I purchased this gun about 2 months ago (Marlin 1895 GBL). I started out with 50 Remington cases that I reloaded 3 times and then I got 50 Winchester cases I reloaded twice now along with 50 cases of Starline that I have reloaded twice also. I have seen no scratches on any of the cases I have. I do know that Winchester cases are slightly thinner than the other 2 so I assumed it had something to do with the thinner wall of the Winchester cases. Unfortunately, I tossed the other cracked case but as I remember the crack was close to the same location as this one. The 2 recipes I have used with the Winchester cases are:
1. 350g. JFP Hornady, 45.0g. RL-7, OAL of 2.550, Win. LR Standard or Magnum primer.
2. 300g. Remington JHP, 53.2g. IMR-3031, OAL of 2.550, Win. LR Standard or Magnum primer.
The first recipe was from my Lyman book and the second was from my Hornady book.

F. Guffey · December 2, 2010, 12:08 AM

Some reloading manuals list three categories for the 45-70, one goes up to 28,000 cup, the nest goes up to 40,000 cup, the last goes to 50,000 cup. The case organizes the components like the primer in the rear, the powder between the primer and bullet and sealed from the atmosphere, the next function of the case is to seal the chamber, The least of my worries is the thickness of the case body that has been fired 3 times unless the chamber is expanded due to heavy loads, measuring the thickness of the case wall on the near straight wall 45-70 case can be measured with old tools, tools that are 130+ years old.

I am not a fan of reduced loads, do not get me wrong, I think reduced loads are cute but when the powder comes up short of filling the case, there is room for the powder to lay on the side of the case with space on the top of the powder, if what they say about primers firing over the top and igniting the long column of powder from the top down is true someone should consider the possibility a shaped charge could cut the case., so I suggest you index the cases when chambering to see if the cut on the case is on the bottom,,,,or top.

If the cut is always on the bottom look for a bulge or????

November 29, 2010, 08:15 PM	#1
dsv424 Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2008 Location: Dallas, Tx. Posts: 266	What causes this? I have only reloaded this 45-70 Winchester case twice and as you can see there is a crack in it. The load was only mid-range and this is the second case I have noticed this occur. I realize Winchester cases are slightly thinner than either Starline or Remington cases but I don't think I should have this happen on just the second time I reload these cases. Has anyone else experienced this problem with Winchester cases? Could it be that I got a bad batch?[IMG][/IMG]

November 29, 2010, 08:43 PM	#3
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Either that or possibly something is scoring the brass badly on loading. Have you noticed any scratches on your ejected cases that weren't there when you put them in? Does it have any relationship to where the bottom of the bullet stops in the case? Doesn't look like it would unless you were loading something really heavy. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

November 30, 2010, 12:28 PM	#4
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	Defect on the interior of the brass? __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

November 30, 2010, 01:28 PM	#5
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	I'm wondering how he'll spot that without a borescope. The case is big enough that it might be clear under a flashlight. One of those little gooseneck white LEDs might be good for that inspection A dental pick or an improvised feeler might let him feel it. DSV424: Any chance you could saw it in half to better see what you find on the inside? Also, stick your pinkie into the chamber and feel around or borescope it. Make sure the gun's OK. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

November 30, 2010, 06:21 PM	#8
Gbro Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,084	It looks like you cleaned it up before taking the picture. Do you have any that just came out of the chamber and maybe 2 side by side to compare. Also is it just the light or is the end of the case distorted. like maybe too heavy a crimp or jamed into the throat? What is your case length? __________________ Gbro CGVS For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, But to us who are being saved, It Is The Power Of God. 1Corinthians 1-18

November 29, 2010, 08:42 PM	#2
Doodlebugger45 Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2009 Location: Wyoming Posts: 1,717	This is just a guess because I have not seen that happen before. But I notice kind of a groove or scratch of some kind that extends upwards from the obvious crack in your case. It could be that you have some kind of grit embedded in your sizing die and it is scratching your brass and creating a weak point which cracks on firing. Look at the other brass that didn't crack yet and see if you notice any kind of scratches on them. If so, you might have a tiny piece of sand or something in the sizing die. Sand can get into your sizing die from brass that has hit the ground. It only takes one tiny fragment of quartz in the die to do that. If that is the case, I'm not certain that you can clean it out of the die. Maybe, but maybe not. Quartz is incredibly hard, nearly as hard as diamonds, certainly harder than steel. You might have to replace the sizing die. Maybe others have seen this before and can provide more insight.

November 30, 2010, 01:37 PM	#6
engineermike Junior member Join Date: March 14, 2010 Location: Oklahaoma City Posts: 538	what brand of sizing die are you using and is this die fairly new, and have you noticed the scratches on your cases before you sized this/other cases. ? Looks like the scratches start at the mouth of the case.

November 30, 2010, 04:46 PM	#7
dsv424 Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2008 Location: Dallas, Tx. Posts: 266	I have Starline, Remington, and Winchester cases for this caliber and I have only had this problem with 2 of the Winchester cases. They are new Lee dies and I don't have any marks or scratches on any of my cases. I have now reloaded them all 3 times.

November 30, 2010, 06:44 PM	#9
dsv424 Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2008 Location: Dallas, Tx. Posts: 266	Unfortunately, I had already tumbled, lubed, resized, and was preparing to trim them before I noticed it. I trim all my cases to 2.100. In addition, I do use a slightly heavy crimp on these rounds. Also, if you look close at each end of the crack it is blackened which would indicate gases did erupt out of the crack.

December 1, 2010, 08:42 AM	#10
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Rifle new and just out of the box? Send it back. If the rifle is old, very old, I would suspect a small cavity or bulge caused by rust, when the case is fired the case expands and fills the bulge, when the case is extracted the bulged case is 'reverse' sized. The first time the case if fired there should be a shinny spot where the bulge is located and if the case is indexed the hole should match the shinny spot. for cases that are not indexed there should be a shinny spot and a crack caused by the bulge. I would be for removing the wood, if a case is stretching at the web the impending case head separation can be detected with an awl with a 90 degree bend near the end? There are plastic picks with bent heads that could be used if you think the awl is tougher than the metal of the chamber. If the crack that could be caused by a small bulge in the chamber is not at the same place every time? We have just entered into the Twilight Zone. Make a casting? Most mistakes made when casting the chamber are forgivable because of the low heat necessary to melt, I agree casting a chamber with a suspected bulge is not a good ideal, most advice given when suggesting 'make a chamber casting' is always given in one sentence or less, that is just enough information to get someone in trouble, sometimes the advise is given in a compound sentence like 'and then check the casting for head space, I can do that, I can not give you a good reason for doing it, it is the nature of Cerosafe. F. Guffey

December 1, 2010, 09:43 AM	#11
ammo.crafter Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2006 Location: The Keystone State Posts: 1,970	case failure I experienced case scratches with 444 Marlin cases and found that the interior wall of the resizing die hard grit. The rifle chamber had no failure. Very careful case cleaning, using high quality resizing lubricant and occasionally taking apart the resizing die and cleaning it completely erradicated the problem. Hope it helps. __________________ "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading". --Thomas Jefferson

December 1, 2010, 10:13 AM	#12
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	If we were cutting glass or 'hardyboard' I would advise against scratches, with any kind of pressure scratches flatten and scratches do not stress the case, I sent a Winchester Model 70 back for repair because the chamber was ugly, cases removed had what looked like gouges almost the length of the chamber, I sized the ballooned/gouged cases and fired them in a non Weatherby rifle chambered in a non Weatherby chamber, after firing there was only a hint of the gouges left on the case, and, the cases fired in the non Weatherby chambered in the Model 70 without Resistance, and they informed me they would clean up the chamber by polishing, honing and or reaming the chamber, and I ask "How is any of that going to make the chamber smaller" and then they ask me "How do you know the chamber is too large in diameter and too long" And I have never seen skid marks on a case from having fired x number of times. F. Guffey

December 1, 2010, 10:58 AM	#13
Edward Horton Junior member Join Date: October 12, 2009 Posts: 70	Welcome to the new Corporate World where "money talks and quality walks". Scratches have nothing to do with the problem, when the case was made from a brass button or pellet during one of the drawing operations a defect was created. This "thin spot" ruptured when the case was fired, and there is a reason "why" competitive shooters are buying cartridge cases made in Finland by Lapua who has better quality control. 30 years ago my 45-70 cases never did what happened above because Remington and Winchester still belonged to the parent company. Today they belong to a Wall Street investment company who just happens to like profits over quality control. Below the forming steps for the .303 British cartridge case from the 1929 Textbook of Small Arms British War Office printing. When you speed up the production line and lower quality control standards what happen to your case is the result. Harsh letters or emails to the company telling them your dissatisfaction "AND" including the link to your posted photo here "might" have positive results. (complaints seen world wide on the web)

December 1, 2010, 12:30 PM	#14
engineermike Junior member Join Date: March 14, 2010 Location: Oklahaoma City Posts: 538	Yep, I was leaning more toward a dirty die or a faulty die. I had a new die that made the cases look like they were fluted and it turned out to be an unpolished sizer die but Hornady replaced the die body and the replacement worked fine but that does not sound like that is the case here. Might try sending the case/cases back to the manufacturer and see if you get a response from them.

December 1, 2010, 01:26 PM	#15
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	I think its likely an issue in terms of quality of the case - vs anything in the rifle. But remember - none of the ammo mfg's have any interest in mfging a case that will let us reload it 15 times ( or even once for that matter ). They would much rather force us to buy new factory ammo. The fact that a case fails on 1st reload, or 2nd or 10th .... they believe, is no reflection on their quality control systems ....( in fact they're happy if they fail on a re-load / as long as they don't fail first time out of the factory box ). I'm seeing that same type of failure ( almost identical to your photo ) in some Remington STS shotshell cases ( they're plastic / so they're different ) ---- but almost the identical split in the sidewall of the case after 2 or 3 reloads ....when 10 yrs ago / I was getting 25 reloads easy out of a new STS 12ga case. Its a sign of the times .....

December 1, 2010, 01:29 PM	#16
chiefr Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2010 Location: AR Posts: 1,401	I have seen this happen and with different carts. I have encountered this with 38spl and even 223mil brass. At one time, I can remember around 5% of a certain lot of 38 Spl 130gr PGU hardball had case splits in the middle during my active duty days. I can't remember lot numbers, but all the projectiles hit their mark and ejected w/o problems. It was well known at least in my range days, the defect was caused by the manufacturing process, not the firearm. In all my days of shooting and range work, I have seen case splits like this with factory ammo, athough very rare.

December 1, 2010, 02:16 PM	#17
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	There is nothing like measuring before and after and being able to measure the case at the same point, before and after. Nothing like blaming the manufacturer, I have blind end micrometers, hole micrometers and inside and outside transfers calipers, in the manufacturing process of a case while is is being formed the case requires annealing as many as 5 times, the head of the case does not have the ability to stretch and recover like the mouth and shoulder. We do not know if the 45/70 is Government, lever action or Modern Rifle Design, again there is nothing like measuring before and after firiing AND again after sizing. He says he has two cases that split (OR POPED A HOLE IN THE SIDE OF THE CASE), again, is the hole in both cases in the same place? I am a big fan of cutting down on case travel. F. Guffey

December 1, 2010, 03:24 PM	#18
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	I've had cases occasionally fail like that as long as I've been reloading. I call them burn throughs. Agree that it's a problem with manufacturing, normally a weak spot in the brass (maybe an inclusion) or bad annealing. No rhyme or reason to it. I've had it happen to factory new ammo on its first firing, and I've had it happen to cases on their 20th reloading. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

December 1, 2010, 04:13 PM	#19
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	I don't know what forming sequence is current in the U.S or for Starline in particular. Lapua uses what Edward posted, above. In this country we formed the brass cups from discs punched from sheet brass on rolls originally, and Hatcher's Notebook has photos of that sequence. The heads were forged into the cups. There have been a couple of examples of case faults posted over the last couple of years where there are folds in and near the head indicating some of the overseas manufacturers for sure are still using that approach. Apparently the disc approach is sensitive to flaws in the original disc, as Hatcher has an example of a disc cut with a little of the edge missing that turned into a split in the case. That missing bit apparently caused thinning or extreme unevenness in the draw. I'd still like to see one of those cases sectioned 90° from the split to see what looking at if from behind reveals. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

December 1, 2010, 08:08 PM	#20
dsv424 Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2008 Location: Dallas, Tx. Posts: 266	Thanks so much for all the input on this problem guys. I purchased this gun about 2 months ago (Marlin 1895 GBL). I started out with 50 Remington cases that I reloaded 3 times and then I got 50 Winchester cases I reloaded twice now along with 50 cases of Starline that I have reloaded twice also. I have seen no scratches on any of the cases I have. I do know that Winchester cases are slightly thinner than the other 2 so I assumed it had something to do with the thinner wall of the Winchester cases. Unfortunately, I tossed the other cracked case but as I remember the crack was close to the same location as this one. The 2 recipes I have used with the Winchester cases are: 1. 350g. JFP Hornady, 45.0g. RL-7, OAL of 2.550, Win. LR Standard or Magnum primer. 2. 300g. Remington JHP, 53.2g. IMR-3031, OAL of 2.550, Win. LR Standard or Magnum primer. The first recipe was from my Lyman book and the second was from my Hornady book.

December 2, 2010, 12:08 AM	#21
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Some reloading manuals list three categories for the 45-70, one goes up to 28,000 cup, the nest goes up to 40,000 cup, the last goes to 50,000 cup. The case organizes the components like the primer in the rear, the powder between the primer and bullet and sealed from the atmosphere, the next function of the case is to seal the chamber, The least of my worries is the thickness of the case body that has been fired 3 times unless the chamber is expanded due to heavy loads, measuring the thickness of the case wall on the near straight wall 45-70 case can be measured with old tools, tools that are 130+ years old. I am not a fan of reduced loads, do not get me wrong, I think reduced loads are cute but when the powder comes up short of filling the case, there is room for the powder to lay on the side of the case with space on the top of the powder, if what they say about primers firing over the top and igniting the long column of powder from the top down is true someone should consider the possibility a shaped charge could cut the case., so I suggest you index the cases when chambering to see if the cut on the case is on the bottom,,,,or top. If the cut is always on the bottom look for a bulge or????