45 GAP

thedudeabides · September 26, 2012, 06:08 AM

A friend of mine is moving and selling some of his extensive gun collection. I already bought a 10mm G20 from him, now he wants to sell me his G37 GAP.

While I can see the advantage of having a 10mm, any reason to get a GAP?

Of all the weirder rounds out there, I'm completely unfamiliar with GAP and don't really see an advantage to it.

mete · September 26, 2012, 06:34 AM

If you already have a 45ACP I can't think of why you want an GAP. Otherwise get the GAP. Finding ammo may not be very easy but the GAP is now being used by a good number of state police and other agencies like here in NY and PA. Performance of the two ronds is close.

Officer's Match · September 26, 2012, 08:03 AM

Ask you friend to let you shoot the G37 - then you will understand. Most if not all of those who will post in this thread have never shot a GAP, and frankly I used to be a critic too. Then I shot a G38 and I then sold all my other Glocks and bought a 37, several 38's and a 39.

railroader · September 26, 2012, 08:30 AM

I don't own a gap pistol but you might want to price ammo and check availability. Just something to look into if you plan to shoot it much.

Yung.gunr · September 26, 2012, 08:51 AM

Officer's Match... Why do you like the GAP so much? In your opinion what does it offer over the .45ACP?

Water-Man · September 26, 2012, 09:02 AM

If you can get a good price on it, buy it.

carguychris · September 26, 2012, 12:40 PM

.45GAP is intended to duplicate .45ACP ballistics in a cartridge with the same basic overall length as 9mm and .40S&W so it will fit in a standard-sized Glock frame as opposed to the large G20/G21 frame.

This largely explains why few civilian buyers have embraced it; most shooters don't want a standard-size Glock that fires subsonic .45-caliber 180-200gr bullets badly enough to adopt a cartridge that only works in a handful of pistols, when .45ACP does the same thing and works in hundreds of them. Another factor is the appearance of new striker-fired polymer-frame pistols with a slimmer and friendlier grip profile than the older "Glock Block"- both from other gunmakers (the M&P45) and from Glock themselves (the 21SF).

The good news is that, if you handload, the .45GAP uses many of the same bullets as .45ACP, it can be loaded with common pistol powders in readjusted .45ACP dies, and it takes less expensive small pistol primers, rather than large primers like standard .45ACP brass. Commercial ammo isn't widely available or dirt cheap, but it can often be mail-ordered for reasonable prices, particularly if the seller bought too much of it and didn't realize how limited the demand is.

The bad news is that it only works in a handful of pistols- 3 Glocks, a Sp'fld XD model that was seemingly produced for about 30 minutes, and (IIRC) a Para-Ordnance M1911 that was produced for about 10.

AFAIK like other Glocks, the G37 uses polygonal rifling, and therefore cannot be used with inexpensive cast lead bullets unless you keep the barrel scrupulously clean. You can basically forget about purchasing cheap range-pickup brass; like a 10mm handloader, you may find yourself always taking a buddy to the range so he/she can watch where your brass goes.

One other little-known disadvantage of the G37/G38/G39 is that they have a slightly wider slide than other standard-frame models, so they don't fit in some Glock holsters made of rigid materials such as Kydex.

Water-Man · September 26, 2012, 03:33 PM

It'll give you the same ballistics in 230gr. (not +P) as the .45acp.

If you want a Glock in .45, but don't want the fat grips, the GAP is for you.

It's a good shooter.

Technosavant · September 26, 2012, 04:03 PM

As others said, check the ammo availability- .45 GAP makes .357 SIG look popular.

There just haven't been enough people interested in a .45 caliber bullet in a .40 size frame for it to have caught on. For those who like it, it's just great- good ballistics, not hard to shoot, etc., but expect to have to look hard to find food for the thing.

Officer's Match · September 26, 2012, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Officer's Match... Why do you like the GAP so much? In your opinion what does it offer over the .45ACP?

Hard to effectively communicate it, but in a nutshell it just flat out shoots great. I also own and shoot a lot of 45acp pistols, and my hands are plenty large to handle a 20/21/29/30 Glock, but I like the feel of the GAP models better, particularly the 38.

And I'm still curious, has anybody else that's posted in this thread actually shot one? 'Cause that and that alone is what changed my tune re: GAP's.

orionengnr · September 26, 2012, 07:45 PM

Yeah...buy that GAP and sell me your G20
Then we'll both be happy...or at least I will.

kozak6 · September 26, 2012, 09:41 PM

If you are a reloader with small hands, jump on it.

If not, save the money for something else from his extensive collection.

jimbob86 · September 26, 2012, 09:56 PM

Smaller case capacity of the .45 GAP, coupled with higher pressures (you can't get anything for free, as TANSTAAFL!) make reloading the GAP a less forgiving endeavor than the venerable .45 ACP.

Brass is harder to come by, more expensive when you can find it, and case life would be shorter, I would think.

If you were going to try for a complete Glock Collection, sure, jump on it.

chris in va · September 26, 2012, 10:18 PM

IMO the 45 GAP cartridge is the size it's supposed to be. Even when loaded hot there is still considerable empty space in the ACP.

Just a reloader's perspective.

carguychris · September 27, 2012, 07:11 AM

With a SAAMI max pressure of only 23k psi- versus 30-35k psi for many commonplace pistol cartridges- I can't imagine that .45GAP could really be considered unforgiving. It's theoretically less forgiving that .45ACP, but that's only because .45ACP is one of the easiest pistol cartridges to handload this side of .38Spl or .44Spl.* It shouldn't even be placed in the same category as another common pistol cartridge that has relatively high operating pressure AND very little case capacity (cough... forty... cough).

Same with case life; low chamber pressure generally extends case life. I don't see the cartridge having a problem here either.

All that said, .45GAP DOES come up short in two respects vs. .45ACP due to its smaller case capacity: (a) it doesn't handle 230gr bullets nearly as well because the larger bullets approach its case capacity limits, and (b) velocity of top-end loads is slightly higher in .45ACP because of the extra empty space in the case.

*Provided that the cases aren't double-charged.

Officer's Match · September 27, 2012, 06:07 PM

But, as I just pointed out in the other GAP thread, the GAP does hold tighter velocity SD's, which should equal tighter groups if properly loaded.

WVsig · September 27, 2012, 06:40 PM

It was a solution looking for a problem.

Officer's Match · September 27, 2012, 06:46 PM

Quote:

It was a solution looking for a problem.

Then Glock really lucked out, 'cause the G38 is the bomb (IF YOU ACTUALLY - GASP - SHOOT ONE!).

WVsig · September 27, 2012, 07:04 PM

I have shot it. It is fine and has a niche appeal but I think that the idea which drove it was not really a solution to a problem people where having in real life. It was a theoretical problem not a practical one IMHO.

If you like shooting it more power... LOL to you

.

I agree with others it is an accurate round but it just does not float my boat.

Officer's Match · September 27, 2012, 07:07 PM

It's all good VW and no disrespect was meant, I just think a lot of opinions get prematurely formed ('cause I did it myself re: GAP).

WVsig · September 27, 2012, 07:13 PM

Quote:

It's all good VW and no disrespect was meant,

Absolutely none taken....

I just did not like it enough to warrant the extra expense.

I also think that commercially it has not been successful. Maybe it is due to premature opinions but it simply has never gained much traction.

jimbob86 · September 27, 2012, 10:57 PM

Quote:

I can't imagine that .45GAP could really be considered unforgiving. It's theoretically less forgiving that .45ACP, but that's only because .45ACP is one of the easiest pistol cartridges to handload

That's the crux of it right there: It's more expensive and harder to work with than the cartridge it was designed to compete with, and offered in a gun that is unfriendly to the handloader to begin with.

There are plenty of downsides, with the only upsides being Glock collectors, folks who want something "different" and that it fits in a 9mm size framed Glock...... and those markets are pretty small: who wants a big gripped Glock that offers no real terminal performance advantage over a 9mm Glock (Modern 9mm personal defense ammo giving similar penetration and wound channels to .45 ACP)?

The 153 Glock Collectors in the world already have one, and the "Wanna be Different guys will dump theirs as soon as somebody they know has one too.... I don't see a future for an oddball "mass market" handgun cartridge.

thedudeabides · September 28, 2012, 06:08 AM

I shot it... It's a great gun, feels like a 40, but without the snap.

I also don't think stocking a third weird ammo type after 357 SIG and 10mm is worth it to me.

moxie · September 28, 2012, 07:56 AM

Large and small pistol primers have always been the same price everywhere I look.

USMCGrunt · September 28, 2012, 10:01 AM

First off, I will admit that I have never shot a .45 GAP pistol. However, I will also go on to say that good or bad, I have no use for it. I have .45 ACP handguns out the whazoo and have no problems with the .40 S&W round either for carry purposes as well. I just see no need to replace .45 ACP handguns that fit me just fine with another caliber that is close in performance but is a lot harder to find and when I have seen it, has been just as expensive as the ACP or even higher. As far as reloading goes, I also don't want the extra hassle of having to sort out GAP from ACP brass as well. If you like it, great but I just see no use for it for my purposes so I won't be investing in yet another odd-ball caliber.

September 26, 2012, 06:08 AM	#1
thedudeabides Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2012 Posts: 1,031	45 GAP A friend of mine is moving and selling some of his extensive gun collection. I already bought a 10mm G20 from him, now he wants to sell me his G37 GAP. While I can see the advantage of having a 10mm, any reason to get a GAP? Of all the weirder rounds out there, I'm completely unfamiliar with GAP and don't really see an advantage to it.

September 26, 2012, 06:34 AM	#2
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	If you already have a 45ACP I can't think of why you want an GAP. Otherwise get the GAP. Finding ammo may not be very easy but the GAP is now being used by a good number of state police and other agencies like here in NY and PA. Performance of the two ronds is close. __________________ And Watson , bring your revolver !

September 26, 2012, 08:03 AM	#3
Officer's Match Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2007 Location: LANCASTER,OHIO Posts: 3,944	Ask you friend to let you shoot the G37 - then you will understand. Most if not all of those who will post in this thread have never shot a GAP, and frankly I used to be a critic too. Then I shot a G38 and I then sold all my other Glocks and bought a 37, several 38's and a 39. __________________ REAL EYES REALIZE REAL LIES

September 26, 2012, 12:40 PM	#7
carguychris Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2007 Location: Richardson, TX Posts: 7,523	.45GAP is intended to duplicate .45ACP ballistics in a cartridge with the same basic overall length as 9mm and .40S&W so it will fit in a standard-sized Glock frame as opposed to the large G20/G21 frame. This largely explains why few civilian buyers have embraced it; most shooters don't want a standard-size Glock that fires subsonic .45-caliber 180-200gr bullets badly enough to adopt a cartridge that only works in a handful of pistols, when .45ACP does the same thing and works in hundreds of them. Another factor is the appearance of new striker-fired polymer-frame pistols with a slimmer and friendlier grip profile than the older "Glock Block"- both from other gunmakers (the M&P45) and from Glock themselves (the 21SF). The good news is that, if you handload, the .45GAP uses many of the same bullets as .45ACP, it can be loaded with common pistol powders in readjusted .45ACP dies, and it takes less expensive small pistol primers, rather than large primers like standard .45ACP brass. Commercial ammo isn't widely available or dirt cheap, but it can often be mail-ordered for reasonable prices, particularly if the seller bought too much of it and didn't realize how limited the demand is. The bad news is that it only works in a handful of pistols- 3 Glocks, a Sp'fld XD model that was seemingly produced for about 30 minutes, and (IIRC) a Para-Ordnance M1911 that was produced for about 10. AFAIK like other Glocks, the G37 uses polygonal rifling, and therefore cannot be used with inexpensive cast lead bullets unless you keep the barrel scrupulously clean. You can basically forget about purchasing cheap range-pickup brass; like a 10mm handloader, you may find yourself always taking a buddy to the range so he/she can watch where your brass goes. One other little-known disadvantage of the G37/G38/G39 is that they have a slightly wider slide than other standard-frame models, so they don't fit in some Glock holsters made of rigid materials such as Kydex. __________________ "Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules... MARK IT ZERO!!" - Walter Sobchak Last edited by carguychris; September 26, 2012 at 12:45 PM. Reason: Minor reword...

September 27, 2012, 07:11 AM	#15
carguychris Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2007 Location: Richardson, TX Posts: 7,523	With a SAAMI max pressure of only 23k psi- versus 30-35k psi for many commonplace pistol cartridges- I can't imagine that .45GAP could really be considered unforgiving. It's theoretically less forgiving that .45ACP, but that's only because .45ACP is one of the easiest pistol cartridges to handload this side of .38Spl or .44Spl.* It shouldn't even be placed in the same category as another common pistol cartridge that has relatively high operating pressure AND very little case capacity (cough... forty... cough). Same with case life; low chamber pressure generally extends case life. I don't see the cartridge having a problem here either. All that said, .45GAP DOES come up short in two respects vs. .45ACP due to its smaller case capacity: (a) it doesn't handle 230gr bullets nearly as well because the larger bullets approach its case capacity limits, and (b) velocity of top-end loads is slightly higher in .45ACP because of the extra empty space in the case. Provided that the cases aren't double-charged. __________________ "Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules... MARK IT ZERO!!" - Walter Sobchak*

September 26, 2012, 08:30 AM	#4
railroader Senior Member Join Date: February 8, 2000 Location: Tucson Arizona Posts: 1,756	I don't own a gap pistol but you might want to price ammo and check availability. Just something to look into if you plan to shoot it much.

September 26, 2012, 08:51 AM	#5
Yung.gunr Senior Member Join Date: November 11, 2010 Location: Phoenix area Posts: 1,442	Officer's Match... Why do you like the GAP so much? In your opinion what does it offer over the .45ACP?

September 26, 2012, 09:02 AM	#6
Water-Man Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2008 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 2,126	If you can get a good price on it, buy it.

September 26, 2012, 03:33 PM	#8
Water-Man Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2008 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 2,126	It'll give you the same ballistics in 230gr. (not +P) as the .45acp. If you want a Glock in .45, but don't want the fat grips, the GAP is for you. It's a good shooter.

September 26, 2012, 04:03 PM	#9
Technosavant Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2007 Location: St. Louis, MO area Posts: 4,040	As others said, check the ammo availability- .45 GAP makes .357 SIG look popular. There just haven't been enough people interested in a .45 caliber bullet in a .40 size frame for it to have caught on. For those who like it, it's just great- good ballistics, not hard to shoot, etc., but expect to have to look hard to find food for the thing.

September 26, 2012, 07:45 PM	#11
orionengnr Senior Member Join Date: July 9, 2004 Posts: 5,176	Yeah...buy that GAP and sell me your G20 Then we'll both be happy...or at least I will.

September 26, 2012, 09:41 PM	#12
kozak6 Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2005 Location: AZ Posts: 3,113	If you are a reloader with small hands, jump on it. If not, save the money for something else from his extensive collection.

September 26, 2012, 09:56 PM	#13
jimbob86 Junior member Join Date: October 4, 2007 Location: All the way to NEBRASKA Posts: 8,722	Smaller case capacity of the .45 GAP, coupled with higher pressures (you can't get anything for free, as TANSTAAFL!) make reloading the GAP a less forgiving endeavor than the venerable .45 ACP. Brass is harder to come by, more expensive when you can find it, and case life would be shorter, I would think. If you were going to try for a complete Glock Collection, sure, jump on it.

September 26, 2012, 10:18 PM	#14
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	IMO the 45 GAP cartridge is the size it's supposed to be. Even when loaded hot there is still considerable empty space in the ACP. Just a reloader's perspective.

September 27, 2012, 06:07 PM	#16
Officer's Match Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2007 Location: LANCASTER,OHIO Posts: 3,944	But, as I just pointed out in the other GAP thread, the GAP does hold tighter velocity SD's, which should equal tighter groups if properly loaded. __________________ REAL EYES REALIZE REAL LIES

September 27, 2012, 06:40 PM	#17
WVsig Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2010 Location: NC Posts: 5,309	It was a solution looking for a problem. __________________ -The right to be left alone is the most comprehensive of rights, and the right most valued by free people.-Louis Brandeis -Its a tool box... I don't care you put the tools in for the job that's all... -Sam from Ronin -It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

September 27, 2012, 07:04 PM	#19
WVsig Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2010 Location: NC Posts: 5,309	I have shot it. It is fine and has a niche appeal but I think that the idea which drove it was not really a solution to a problem people where having in real life. It was a theoretical problem not a practical one IMHO. If you like shooting it more power... LOL to you . I agree with others it is an accurate round but it just does not float my boat. __________________ -The right to be left alone is the most comprehensive of rights, and the right most valued by free people.-Louis Brandeis -Its a tool box... I don't care you put the tools in for the job that's all... -Sam from Ronin -It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

September 27, 2012, 07:07 PM	#20
Officer's Match Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2007 Location: LANCASTER,OHIO Posts: 3,944	It's all good VW and no disrespect was meant, I just think a lot of opinions get prematurely formed ('cause I did it myself re: GAP). __________________ REAL EYES REALIZE REAL LIES

September 28, 2012, 06:08 AM	#23
thedudeabides Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2012 Posts: 1,031	I shot it... It's a great gun, feels like a 40, but without the snap. I also don't think stocking a third weird ammo type after 357 SIG and 10mm is worth it to me.

September 28, 2012, 07:56 AM	#24
moxie Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2006 Location: TX Posts: 513	Large and small pistol primers have always been the same price everywhere I look. __________________ If you want to shoot...shoot...don't talk! Tuco USAF Munitions 1969-1992 RVN 1972-1973

September 28, 2012, 10:01 AM	#25
USMCGrunt Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2000 Location: Somewhere in 14T NT Posts: 730	First off, I will admit that I have never shot a .45 GAP pistol. However, I will also go on to say that good or bad, I have no use for it. I have .45 ACP handguns out the whazoo and have no problems with the .40 S&W round either for carry purposes as well. I just see no need to replace .45 ACP handguns that fit me just fine with another caliber that is close in performance but is a lot harder to find and when I have seen it, has been just as expensive as the ACP or even higher. As far as reloading goes, I also don't want the extra hassle of having to sort out GAP from ACP brass as well. If you like it, great but I just see no use for it for my purposes so I won't be investing in yet another odd-ball caliber.