What do you think of this?

[Farmland]

What did Bill Kapeles not tell you in that blog?

His history includes manufacturing custom ammunition and working for an ammunition company.

I can now see why he would want you to strongly believe reloading isn't that great.

Nice try Bill.

[Mike Irwin]

I would dare say, Clark, that when you've grenaded one of your guns with one of your special loads that it has been a LOT more than .2 grains over a book published load.

That's not what this gentleman is talking about, though.

Well, to be fair, he doesn't come out directly and say WHAT starting point that .2 grain error is over, but I'd have to say that since he's saying that reloading of ALL kinds is dangerous (for lack of a better descriptive term), he's talking about manufacturer published loading data.

And once again, I call Bravo Sierra on that claim.

[Lost Sheep]

In his rebuttal to the criticisms leveled at the original argument, he does explain that his article was intended for the large-quantity professional shooter, competitor, whatever.

In my critique of his article, I pointed out his errors and did not try to insult

I am a handloader who agrees with you, at least in that anyone loading should examine the question. But I disagree with your estimation of where the majority of the shooting/loading population will find their advantage.

When I first started shooting, I had a lot more time than money, so $25/hour is unrealistically high.

I disagree with several of your opening statements. I believe you are mistaken on these points;

If .2 grains over your intended load will blow up your gun, you are running a lot closer to the edge of disaster than I do. S.A.A.M.I. has some safety margin and I do not abuse it. Not even close.

The incidence of squib loads for a careful handloader is not "high" unless you consider two in 35 years high. (My personal statistic).

Handgun cartridges do not take more abuse than rifle cartridges. Semiautomatic guns (both long and short) do subject their brass to some abuse, but typically the pressures in handguns is 12,000 to 20,000 psi for standard cartridges and up to 35,000 psi for magnum cartridges and other high-intensity cartridges. Modern bottlenecked rifle cartridges typically have 35,000 to 50,000 psi.

I believe are placing too much importance on the cartridge case length. Semi-auto cartridge cases typically do not require trimming and revolver cases headspace on the rim. You are correct that varying lengths do vary the crimp strength, but in my experience this has not been a problem. Besides, there are ways to easily trim handgun cartridges. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one, however. Neither of us appear to have hard statistics to prove the matter one way or the other.

Primer seating is equally critical for handguns as for rifles and I have seen more problems with ignition from commercially loaded ammo than with handloads. (I have to admit that most of those were rimfire cartridges, though.)

I have looked for cases where handloaded ammunition figured in the conviction in a criminal case or increased award in civil cases and found no clear, unequivocal examples. I would appreciate a few citations. The best I argument I have seen is that forensic examinations are considered more reliable with factory ammo (because of presumably superior quality control, or perhaps just labeling, with retail ammo over privately made or custom made ammo).

Thanks for writing the article. I agree that the questions need to be asked. We disagree on the answers, though

Larry (Lost Sheep on most of the forums I haunt.).

[StrongSideArmsInc]

His numbers are skewed. He comparing bulk cheap FMJ ammo, with high end FMJ bullets. I buy 500 bullets from HSN or Berrys for less than 45 dollars. Not $137.50. He must be buying the most expensive FMJ bullets on the market.

[StrongSideArmsInc]

Aim surplus does not sell 40sw for $13.10 a box, shipped. 262/20=$13.10.
BS, were's the shipping cost. On a case of ammo, thats easily another 20 Bucks.

I just did the math on my own 40SW load.

Winchester Primers (1000) 28.00
HSN 1000 165gr FMJ (1000) 83.00
Brass was free.
5 Grns per load of Bullseye will produce 1400 rds out of 1 pound of powder.
So I am using only about 3/4 powder, $25.00 a pound, .75lbs = $18.75

Total = $ 129.75 Divide by 20 = $6.48

Hornday Lock n Load AP press 1 hour tops. Takes me less time to load a thousand rounds than it takes to ship from AIM.

Half the cost, plus I get to drink beer w/ my pit bull in the shed, listening to Rush, Priceless!!

http://www.reloadbench.com/gloss/grain.html

[ipscchef]

I thought this thing was dead and buried!
TimT, I did post a response there, and it is still up as of the time stamp on this reply. I did indicate to him that I thought that a lot more of us here would be replying to his drivel there, but I only see two or three, one of which is mine and ones from Dr. Strangelove and Lost Sheep.
A couple of observations;
Doodlebugger, that was one of the funniest things I have read in a long time:!! Very well said Sir, very well indeed!!
Clark, You have blown up lots of guns in workups? Really? Just how did you do that? were you holding these guns in your hand(s) when they blew up? What caused them to blow up? What types of guns were these? What powders and other components were you using to cause these catastrophies?
If this is the case, Sir, do you not have an obligation to inform the readers here, and everyone else who handloads and then shoots those handloads, to inform us as to which guns you blew up and how you did it with a .2gr. overload? Do you not think that you should inform your fellow handloaders just which guns were blown up with handloads, so you can help insure our safety? Not to mention letting us know which guns to avoid handloading for, so we do not blow them up.?
Lost Sheep, you wrote a very well reasoned, consise response to him, IMO.
I would like to know from Mr. Kapeles the following, If I am using Virgin brass, does that also maky MY loads "New Custom Ammunition" as opposed to "Handloads", therefore abrogating all of the problems associated with "Handloads"?
I am going back to his site to write another opinion of his assertions.,
I hope to see some of you guys there!
Willy

[Cascade1911]

Just added my reply. See if it makes it past moderation. I wonder how many replies have been blocked since "Admin" talks about the nerve he hit and all the negative responses he received and yet there are very few responses posted.

I basically asked the author what his data was to backup his claims since he felt justified in refuting others opinions because it was based on "anecdotal" evidence.

[CrustyFN]

Just added my reply. See if it makes it past moderation.

Mine didn't.

[Qtiphky]

I wasn't sure if the link at the beginning with the "article" was real. After reading all 4 pages of comments, and his comments, I guess it was. I do agree with the comments here that this guy is somewhere in left field, if not further out. I have only be reloading for about four years and can't see where he is coming from. I have had some squibbs, due to lack of focus on my part as the powder was bridging and not dropping full charges. I changed my quality control about 1000 rounds ago and have not had any problems since.

As for handloads for SD purposes, that has been argued to death and, to me, it seems that there has been no clear cases where it has been found to be a problem. The logical argument to me for using handloads would be "to ensure to neutralize the threat as quickly as possible to avoid maiming or injuring any bystanders or the perpetrator. If I feel it necessary to shoot someone in self defense, I want them neutralized ASAP for my safety and that of my family." That being said, I carry factory loads unless I am in the woods.

[TimT]

At least he approved Lost Sheep's comment. I'd love him to approve all of them.

[Lost Sheep]

Originally Posted by TimT

At least he approved Lost Sheep's comment. I'd love him to approve all of them.

Noting that Mr. K. blocks replies he deem inappropriate, I decided to take a few defensive steps.

1) Knowing many people do not read beyond the first paragraph, I started by agreeing with his principle before bringing up my objections.

2) I avoided all personal accusations or insults. (I let his words condemn themselves.)

Thanks, everyone for the compliments.

Lost Sheep

[t45]

Reading that article wasted 3min out of my life that I wont get back. It is plain that the author doesnt have a clue.

[Clark]

I have seen 32 S&W long go from stuck bullet to stuck case with one more grain of H110.

[jimbob86]

Reading that article wasted 3min out of my life that I wont get back. It is plain that the author doesnt have a clue.

Either that or he has an agenda..... methinks the latter, since he would have a motive for suggesting we leave the loading of ammunition to "professionals" (like himself) ...... meh ..... I'll reload my own thankee. ....and continue to cut my own grass, change my own oil, etc ..... specialization is, after all, for insects.

[ipscchef]

Clark,
You were loading the .32 S&W Long with H110? May I ask where you found Published data that gave H110 loads in that caliber? It is a fairly specialized Magnum powder, although it does well in the .410, I have been told, as I do not load shotgun shells, I do not know. And I am not an "expert" but that does not sound like a reasonable powder/cartrige combo to me.
And I bet that you did find that 1gr. more of H110 gave you bad results, as that would have been at least a 50% volume increase in that case as it only holds about 2.5 to 3.0 grains of powder. That is sort of like saying you had trouble with your
30-06 when you went from 50gr. of 4350 to 75+ gr. of 4350!
Seriously, where did you get published load data for H110 in the .32 S&W Long?
Willy

[Powderman]

Checking back in on this thread, I must say that it is VERY interesting that he deleted almost ALL of the responses that he received from that posting. I wonder why he did not respond?

Ah, well...so much for lala land. Excuse me while I go spend some quality time with my Dillon, loading more horrible handloads...

[ipscchef]

Powderman,
Maybe he is just waiting until we all blow ourselves up, by putting .2gr. too much powder in our "dangerous handloads"!. That'll show us!
You all will have to excuse me now, as I am going out to the barn to make up some of my squib loads with badly seated primers that may blow up on me because I cannot trim my brass properly, (funny, my pistol brass used to shrink after use) and I cannot control my powder within .2gr..
If you guys son't hear from me, it will be because I will not be able to post due to the fact that my hands will be bandaged up from shooting said loads.
Willy

[Cascade1911]

Since my response to Bill Kapeles has little chance of making it past moderation I'll reprint it here if anyone cares to see it (probably not...):

You comment on people writing in citing anecdotal evidence. Please cite your fact based evidence on, lets say, how many guns have blown up because of a .2 grain overcharge.

You say: “The incidence of squib loads (bullets stuck in the barrel due to undercharging the case or having no charge at all) is very high”. What is your non-anecdotal evidence of this?

You state: “Handgun cases take more abuse than rifle cases……. This makes them susceptible to rupture”. Could you give me a run down on a comparison of pressure per unit because my anecdotal kind of mind has this idea that while rifle cases may trend larger than pistol cases, rifle charges are typically heavier than pistol charges. And while it is strictly “anecdotal” my experience (and that of many others) is that pistol cases can be reloaded more times than rifle cases.

Please, if you are going to discard peoples opinions on the grounds that they are “anecdotal” please first cite your own authorities.

I will admit that if labor cost is to be factored into the equation then it is obvious that hand-loading, both handgun AND rifle, makes no ECONOMIC sense for your super busy firearm professional but then I think you are being a bit disingenuous when you try to deflect criticism by claiming you were talking mainly to the “Professionals” and not to the little people. If they are so busy the “Professionals” probably don’t have time to read this site anyway.

Good day to you sir.

[Clark]

ipscchef
Clark,
You were loading the .32 S&W Long with H110? May I ask where you found Published data that gave H110 loads in that caliber? ...
Seriously, where did you get published load data for H110 in the .32 S&W Long?
Willy

I just started imagining or calculating starting loads and then working up 71 gr, 76 gr, 85 gr, 86 gr, and 110 gr bullets with H110, LIL'GUN, 800X, and Unique.

I have found an number of old Colt 32 S&W long revolvers for cheap at gun shows.

They can generally take lots of top hatted primers and stuck cases that terminate work ups without splitting the cylinders or getting rotationally loose. The forcing cones may blow out. I can pull the barrels, TIG weld replacement metal, and re-cut the forcing cones. I have done this a few times. Then forcing cones are very strong and the little revolvers hold up very well with hard use.

This is like developing handguns loads with the shotgun powder Alliant STEEL.
There are no published load data for handguns.
There is no library listing for STEEL in Quickload.

Just have to be a pioneer.

[ipscchef]

I get the Unique, and even the 800X, but Lil Gun and H110? you are definitely being a pioneer in my book.
I'll bet you have to be VERY careful working up your loads with those two in such a small case!
I guess I am getting a little overly cautious as I get ever closer to being an old Curmugeon.
did you get any notable results? Decent velocity, accuracy, SD, etc.? Now you have made me a little curious about your results.
Was there a singular purpose to this, or was it a "I wonder what would happen if...." type of experiment?
It might not be wise to put them up here publicly, but I wonder what were your Min/Max loads for the Magnum Powders?
And what were you using to measure/ weigh your powders with? I would imagine you would be using a very accurate scale.
Anyway, Thank you for your reply.
Willy

[ipscchef]

Cascade, a very well reasoned response. Well done, IMHO.
Looking at his article, I saw nothing that he wrote that was based on emperical evidence. Everything that he said was anecdotal as far as I can tell.
And he is not being very forthright about responding further to the few responses that he has posted. He did put my response up, I posted under my name, "Bill Henderson" although it still says"awaiting moderation" or some such thing, almost a week later. I never have, nor ever will claim to be an "expert", I have been aroung those who are, and I most definately am not among that group! I just told him what my real life experiences were. And to reiterate one point he tried to make about "Pros" not having the time to roll their own, that is the exact opposite of what I saw. There was a definite parallel between the skill level as it improved, and the amount of those that only used their own handloads.
And, Methinks, the good Sir is possibly Lurking on this thread!
JMH,anicdotal,O, and as always YMMV.
Willy

[ipscchef]

I was thinking, just suppose for a minute he is right about how dangerous Handloading really is. Does that mean that there is a "Home" somewhere, for ex handloaders that all now go by the nickname of "Stumpy", which is why we never see them?
Just Thinkin'

Willy

[hk33ka1]

That article sounded like it was written by an ammo dealer who didn't sell reloading equipment yet...

and why would I want to trim pistol cases.... lol

It's like a tire dealer saying you can't safely do a $10 patch to a tire, but he'll sell you a $200 new one that he makes $45 on.

[Clark]

I have been injured in football, tree topping, motor cycle racing, bar tending, clearing land with a machete, just riding in a car, using a grinder, mountain climbing, and quite a few other things that also required medical attention.

But in 12 years of constantly overloading some of the ~60 different cartridges I handload, I have never been hurt.

What does it all mean?
If you don't know what you are doing, everything is very dangerous.
If you are so good at something, you can accurately predict outcomes, nothing is dangerous. There are no risks when there are no unknowns.

[jimbob86]

They can generally take lots of top hatted primers and stuck cases that terminate work ups without splitting the cylinders or getting rotationally loose. The forcing cones may blow out. I can pull the barrels, TIG weld replacement metal, and re-cut the forcing cones. I have done this a few times. Then forcing cones are very strong and the little revolvers hold up very well with hard use.

This is like developing handguns loads with the shotgun powder Alliant STEEL.
There are no published load data for handguns.
There is no library listing for STEEL in Quickload.

Just have to be a pioneer.

When I think of "pioneer", I think of folks taking useless prairie and turning it into the breadbasket of the world ..... not sombody taking antique handguns and abusing them to the point of destruction...... it's your dollars, I guess ...... too bad they are not making any more of those guns.

Is there a need for a magnum powder load for 32 S&W? Foolishness, methinks.

Then again, some folks are put on this earth as a warning for others ......