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February 14, 2009, 01:56 PM | #76 | |
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If you read through Clayton Cramer's self-defense blog which consists of a huge volume of news articles on self-defense shootings you will find that it is fairly common for victims to remain uninjured even when they pull a gun against an armed attacker.
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February 14, 2009, 01:59 PM | #77 | |
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February 14, 2009, 02:00 PM | #78 | |
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February 14, 2009, 02:06 PM | #79 | |
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The only reason I referenced it was because it provided an easy counterexample to the speculation that "defending yourself with a firearm against an assailant armed with a firearm could be a guaranteed death sentence." It doesn't take much reading to see that it's not at all uncommon for a citizen to defend with a firearm "against an assailant armed with a firearm" and to remain uninjured. It's just not possible to try to construct a valid statistic (defendable percentage) from those articles.
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February 14, 2009, 02:11 PM | #80 | |
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February 14, 2009, 02:17 PM | #81 | ||
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As I pointed out, it's perfectly valid to draw general conclusions from the results or look for counterexamples and trends, but it's a mistake to try to calculate numbers. Quote:
I seriously doubt that any insurance company will pay him to do so, however, since it's not in their interest (limiting their liability) to provide statistics showing that armed self-defense is an advantage in any situation.
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February 14, 2009, 02:22 PM | #82 | |
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You can't really draw a valid conclusion (general consensus or otherwise) without the real facts. You can't even look at trends if you do not know the circumstances of the attack. We would absolutely have to know if the assailant possessed a firearm at the time or not and know how many of those times went which way.. |
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February 14, 2009, 02:23 PM | #83 | |
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February 14, 2009, 02:25 PM | #84 | |
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February 14, 2009, 02:28 PM | #85 |
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There you go again. Mistaking shaky and manipulated statistical data as fact...and dismissing personal experience, exceptions to the rule and anecdotes as irrelevant.
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February 14, 2009, 02:30 PM | #86 |
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The key to it all is an ability to accurately interpret the intent of the BG. While we can't "read minds" we can interpret actions and observe body language to get an idea of what direction things may be headed. Any person being robbed who gets the idea that violence is forth coming would be just as fool hardy to not act as would the person who starts a gun fight after the BG is leaving peacefully.
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February 14, 2009, 02:34 PM | #87 |
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Okay...are you able to accurately interpret whether a BG intends to shoot you or not when he is pointing a gun directly at you? Are you going to rely on "the insurance company's statistics" to decide?
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February 14, 2009, 02:53 PM | #88 |
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<sound of crickets>
Yes?...no?...anyone? |
February 14, 2009, 02:57 PM | #89 |
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I learned in this thread that when you make a claim, it's up to the opposition to prove you wrong. Interesting. I seem to remember that the burden of proof rests upon the party that is making the claim.
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Luck runs out. Boiler Up! Last edited by BuckHammer; February 14, 2009 at 02:59 PM. Reason: clarification, added that last sentence |
February 14, 2009, 03:02 PM | #90 | |
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It is true that some are so sketchy as to be useless, others provide a considerable amount of information and even without knowing all the circumstances, it's still possible to look at trends if the pertinent circumstances are included. Yes, as you read through the hundreds of articles (maybe thousands, I don't have the time nor inclination to count them) on the blog I mentioned you will find that some of them are so brief that they're not helpful. However, that is the exception rather than the rule.
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February 14, 2009, 03:40 PM | #91 | |
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The only thing I'm sure of is that "Gun! Shoot him!" as a standard, irreducible response is dangerously over simplistic. I'm not saying that you (or anyone in this thread) is necessarily advocating that idea but there are many who do. Every one of us, when presented with a SD situation must make certain calculations and assumptions in planning our reaction to that situation. No two situations are identical, no two BGs have the same intent and no two of them can be counted on to react identically to our response. Dynamic situations require dynamic responses. There is no one size fits all.
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February 14, 2009, 03:53 PM | #92 | ||||
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Personally, I dont see what statistics have to do with any of this. There MAY be statistical data to support or disprove a lot of things, but who cares? It seems to me, every occurrence is a new slate, and the guy with the other gun is the one who makes all the decisions, his and yours. Quote:
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February 14, 2009, 04:10 PM | #93 | |
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We can all think of 1000 scenarios that are inarguable "shoot" situations and I think we can come up with 1000 scenarios that are arguably "don't shoot" scenarios, all of which involve guns. We've all had this discussion before. The goal of a SD situation is, quite simply, to make the BG go away and leave me alone. Sometimes that means shoot him, sometimes not. Sometimes it means cooperate, sometimes not. Sometimes it's cooperate one second and shoot the next. The "Gun! Shoot!!" mentality can be dangerous to you and every one in the area should it ever goes down.
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February 14, 2009, 04:13 PM | #94 |
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Sitting around trying to determine which of those 1000 scenarios you are smack in the middle of will likely get you killed.
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February 14, 2009, 04:22 PM | #95 | |
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We must not believe that compliance MIGHT be deadly and action WON'T be deadly. Either could be deadly when the other may have been safe. The question is "Which action IN THIS CASE is safer?" Let's take your example. You've been mugged 4 times and beaten 4 times. It is reasonable to believe that a mugging in that area will result in significant injury, therefore it is reasonable to take action. However, if you move to a new city then things may change. The sub-culture could be different, muggings may be generally "peaceful" (I know, "peaceful mugging", let's not go down that road) in that city and only those who resist tend to get hurt. Now, you personally might be inclined to resist and that's fine, I'm not saying it's wrong but in THAT city it may be that you are safer to NOT resist. Yes, I know, that situation is what it is and statistics don't apply to individual situations but that doesn't change the fact that resistance in one place or situation may be needed while compliance is safer in another.
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February 14, 2009, 04:25 PM | #96 | |
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You have to pre determine what your response will be to basic problems, even though the problem may not be simple. You have to set specific safeties he removes by his actions and implement your response at your pre determined level. Simple to me is, he has a gun, hes pointing that gun at me, or someone else who doesnt deserve it, and by doing so, has already made his intention plain, so the next step will be for me to neutralize him by all and any means at the first possible opportunity. You make things a lot easier on yourself if you have this worked out ahead of time. If you wait until its on you, and then try to reason it out, you'll die thinking when you should be doing something. You also have to get your head right. There is nothing defensive about your response, its all pure aggression. |
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February 14, 2009, 04:30 PM | #97 | |
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Actually, I completely agree with that statement. The question is "When does that opportunity present itself?" It is entirely possible that it will not present itself, the BG will get his money (or whatever) and go away. That would be a fine outcome in my book.
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February 14, 2009, 04:37 PM | #98 |
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My point was that inaction will get you injured or killed quicker than taking action.
In my case, each time I was compliant and handed over my valuables. But each time, the other guy behind me decided to try and kill me. At least that's what it felt like at the time. The last two times I was accosted (mugging #3 and #4), I was initally compliant. I handed over my valuables without resistance. But as soon as they began began hitting me, I fought back. I was weaponless each time, but I fought back anyway. In these last two muggings in which I resisted, my injuries were FAR LESS painful than mugging #2, which put me in the hospital. I can tell you that the recovery from my injuries in that mugging was no fun and has left me permanently physically scarred. I will always choose to act rather than do nothing. |
February 14, 2009, 04:43 PM | #99 | |
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The aggressor almost always has the advantage, especially if he acts first. The boy who got shot in the video made the mistake of presenting an intent, the guard acted quickly and decisively, and prevailed. The other boy was way behind the curve at that point and never had a chance to recover. It could have easily been the other way around. |
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February 14, 2009, 04:48 PM | #100 |
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Anyone who tells you that when staring evil in the face to "Do nothing...you'll be fine!" is full of...themselves.
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