Want a SA, need advice

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Bob Wright

Most newer Ubertis have what is caled the "Swiss Safe" type safety, which is the two position base pin. This abomination is about the least practical "safety" everr devised.

Useless, for all practical purposes.

However, it passes the import requirements for a safety device, and allows the action to be unmodified from the original Colt design. For that reason, I'll happily accept the base pin having an extra notch in it.

[rclark]

I'll happily accept the base pin having an extra notch in it.

And you can at least 'shorten' the pin too for no safety (back to normal). My new Model P has the floating firing pin. Seems to work.... But of course would have rather had the simple original 'solid' version. <sigh> and the safety notch (not to be trusted) on the hammer... Is what it is in today's world though... Roll with it.

[shurshot]

Over the years I have owned various Virginian Dragoons, a crate full of various SA Rugers, JP Saur, Mossberg Abilenes, Uberti, Pietta, EMF Dakota's (Jager)... in .45, .44 Mag, .22 and .357. They were and are pretty cool guns. Nothing like a good single action, especially at a good price.
But now, over 3 decades later... finally getting a REAL Colt Peacemaker .45 and carrying in daily for the past 8 months or so (hammer resting on an empty chamber)... there is no comparison. Super accurate and more than enough power. Just feels right in the hand, balance is perfect. I love shooting this baby! Smart Woodchucks take cover around my place!!! Sambar stag grips replaced the factory grips, tough as nails and good lookers too.
As far as other SA revolvers? The rest are just imitations. Good imitations, yes... but still not the real thing. I still have a few of them... but they are safe queens now. Life is too short to carry a fake.
In my opinion, Nothing beats a genuine Colt.

[44 AMP]

In my opinion, Nothing beats a genuine Colt.

In my opinion, Ruger does beat a genuine Colt. But that's just me and your opinion is as valid for you as mine is for me.

After 35+ years of using a Blackhawk, Colt's seem small and fragile to me. I know they aren't but they seem that way, to me.

Friend of mine has real Colt SAAs, says Rugers are too big and clunky. The only thing that really matters is what you, personally, like best.

There are roughly two different groups of SA owners. Those who want, and prefer the original Colt look and mechanism, and those who don't care so much about that.

ALL my SA revolvers are Ruger New Models, Blackhawks, Super, original Vaqueros and a Super Single Six. Have had a New Vaquero, traded it off to someone who wanted it more than I did. I don't want any Colt or Colt clones, I'm very happy with my Rugers.

I'm not a traditionalist or purist in the field of SA revolvers. Lots of folks are, and that's fine, for them.

I don't need to pay for the Pony to get what I want. You can if you want, I'm fine with that.

[rclark]

I'd jump on a 'genuine' Colt .45 Colt SAA ... if the price was inline with other six-guns. Even a little higher ... But not double/triple the price. FWIW, the Cimarron Model P 5 1/2" that I bought recently is turning out to be a very nice revolver. I wonder if it was tuned up as it has a nice ~3# pull and the timing seems right on. Throats are the right size, cylinder gap is good, barrel looks good.... and it shoots very well to POA (very very surprised). I shot 100 rounds (250g RNFP) through it and all the screws stayed put (I have a .44 Special Taylor SAA that the screws work loose right away). No leading. Feels good in the hand too. This is the first import that I've owned that I am actually impressed with. I think I got lucky.... finally .

[BoogieMan]

No one has commented on the JP Sauer. I assume they haven't been making SA in 30 years or more. I have found a few at very reasonable price that may fulfill my need for a SA. Do they follow through with the quality of other west German guns?

[shurshot]

The JP Sauer Chief Marshal .44 mag I once owned was very good quality, right up there with Ruger. Heavy frame, nice bluing. Had beautiful (Rosewood?), hardwood grips. They used to make the Powermag for Herters if I recall. Not sure about parts if you end up needing some as they haven't been made for some time as you stated.

[jetinteriorguy]

First of all, I have no knowledge or experience with CAS but have a couple thoughts/questions. First thing, is a .41 mag an acceptable cartridge if loaded properly? Second thing, are Henry’s an OK rifle to use since they are available in .41 mag? My main plinking load with any 210-220 gr bullet is 8-8.4 gr of Green Dot, not sure of the MV but I’d think it would be well under 1000fps. I’ve also loaded as low as 4gr of Green Dot and it’s a real pussycat so if the caliber is allowable it could definitely be loaded down to qualify. My point being with the right components the .41 mag is a very versatile caliber and I don’t recall where I saw it but I know the softer CAS type bullets are available. But like most things .41 mag, being a hand loader is what makes a great cartridge most usable from an economical standpoint.

[Aguila Blanca]

For anyone interested, here's the link to the SASS rule book. There's a section in the rules covering equipment.

https://sassnet.com/Downloads/Shoote...2%20MASTER.pdf

There's another section covering attire.

[zoo]

CAS should have a scenario where one must shoot across a table while seated for accuracy with a Ruger Bearcat 3.5 Shopkeeper or similar.

[Driftwood Johnson]

For anyone interested, here's the link to the SASS rule book. There's a section in the rules covering equipment.

Good luck trying to figure out what you want to know from the Shooter's Handbook. I have been shooting CAS for almost 20 years and still have to search through multiple pages to find exactly what I want to know. Good luck to a Newbie.

First of all, I have no knowledge or experience with CAS but have a couple thoughts/questions. First thing, is a .41 mag an acceptable cartridge if loaded properly? Second thing, are Henry’s an OK rifle to use since they are available in .41 mag? My main plinking load with any 210-220 gr bullet is 8-8.4 gr of Green Dot, not sure of the MV but I’d think it would be well under 1000fps. I’ve also loaded as low as 4gr of Green Dot and it’s a real pussycat so if the caliber is allowable it could definitely be loaded down to qualify. My point being with the right components the .41 mag is a very versatile caliber and I don’t recall where I saw it but I know the softer CAS type bullets are available. But like most things .41 mag, being a hand loader is what makes a great cartridge most usable from an economical standpoint.

Here is the Shooter's Handbook definition of what makes an acceptable revolver cartridge in CAS.

"Must be centerfire calibers of at least .32 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber or percussion calibers of at least .36 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber. Must be in a caliber commonly available in revolvers. Examples include, but are not limited to, .32-20, .32 Magnum, .357 Magnum, .38 Special, .44 Magnum, .44-40, and .45 Colt."

Notice the examples listed are not a finite list, just a few obvious ones. Also notice it does not say acceptable cartridges must have been in existence during the 19th Century. 44 Mag and 357 Mag did not exist in the 19th Century. So yes, 41 Mag would be acceptable as a revolver cartridge as long as it was loaded with lead bullets and velocity was under 1000 fps. (under 1400 fps when fired from a rifle) Those are the general rules for the least restrictive categories. As categories change, ammo requirements can get more restrictive, for instance all cartridges must be at least 40 caliber in the Classic Cowboy category. That means no 38s in that category, but 38-40 is actually 40 caliber, so it is OK in Classic Cowboy. Too much information, I know, but I have been doing this for a long time.



Here is the Shooter's Handbook definition of Main Match rifles:

"Rifles or carbines used in the main and team matches must be original or replicas of lever or slide action rifles manufactured during the period from approximately 1860 until 1899, incorporating a tubular magazine and exposed hammer. Rifles with box magazines may not be used. Certain shooting categories require a specific type of rifle and ammunition to be used."

Here is the information about Main Match rifle ammunition. (When it says Main Match, that is what we are talking about, not the 'specialty' events such as long range precision rifle matches. Those are different events and do not usually happen at a regular monthly match)

"Must be centerfire of at least .32 caliber and not larger than .45 caliber. Must be in a caliber commonly available in revolvers. Examples include, but are not limited to, .32-20, .32 Magnum, .357 Magnum, .38 Special, .38-40, .44-40, .44 Special, .44 Magnum, and .45 Colt. The only allowed exceptions are the .25-20 and .56-50. No rifle calibers such as .30-30 or .38-55 are allowed. Buckaroo/Buckarette Category competitors choosing to utilize .22 caliber firearms must use standard velocity .22 caliber rim-fire ammunition only."

Notice it says cartridges commonly available in revolvers. That's why we call them 'pistol caliber' rifles. Cartridges such as 30-30, which will not fit in a typical revolver cylinder, are not allowed in Main Match rifles.

When you ask about a Henry rifle, particularly one chambered for 41 Mag, I assume you are talking about the Big Boy. When the Big Boy first came out it was not approved as a SASS legal rifle. There were those who said with its brass frame it looked just like a Winchester Model 1866, so it should be allowed. There were others, myself included, who said no way, even with its brass frame the Big Boy was not a reasonable replica of the Winchester 1866. To make matters worse, Henry Repeating Arms began promoting the Big Boy as a SASS approved rifle when in fact the Territorial Governors had not made a ruling on it, so there was a lot of confusion. A couple of years later the TGs revisited the question and specifically included the Big Boy as a SASS legal Main Match rifle, however it is not legal in the Classic Cowboy category. Frankly, there are much better choices of rifles for CAS than the Big Boy. Yes, I have fired one. They are heavier than most other rifles, and do not always function very smoothly. But if you are wedded to using 41 Mag, it is the only rifle I am aware of chambered for the cartridge.

By the way, there is nothing saying you revolvers and rifle have to be chambered for the same cartridge. I have been shooting 45 Colt in my revolvers and 44-40 in my rifles for years. I just have to pay attention not to try to stuff 45s into my 44-40 rifle, which would leave me in a heck of a fix.

If you consider a different caliber for your rifle, it opens up a lot more possibilities than the Big Boy. At one time Marlin was chambering their Model 1894 for 41 Mag, but not anymore.

[44caliberkid]

Driftwood, thanks for backing me up on the existence of an old model Vaquero. Feel free to refer to them as the "original " Vaqueros, but any aftermarket manufacturer making stuff for Ruger SA's, especially grips, lists them as old model Vaquero. The original (old) model Vaquero was offered in 44 Magnum, which the NM Vaquero is not. 44 magnum lets you use a wide variety of ammo from 44 magnum cowboy loads to the fastest 300 grain hardcast. And you can still buy 44 Magnum, unlike most auto pistol calibers.

[44 AMP]

Calling Vaqueros "original" is the best way to differentiate them from the New Vaquero, and it avoids confusion with the "old model" Ruger Blackhawk's Colt style operation.

The guns themselves have their names on them, under the frame window on the left side. The Vaquero says "Ruger Vaquero" and the new Vaquero says "New Vaquero".

Aftermarket makers can call their parts anything they want, they make them, they get to name them. Doesn't mean they are correct. Sometimes, a technically incorrect name is deliberately used so that customers who don't know the correct terms will be able to identify and buy their product.

Some sellers identified their magazines as "clips" intentionally, knowing the difference but listing them as clips boosted sales, so they went with it.

Common conversation uses a lot of misapplied terms, which is of no big concern in common conversation but can be entirely wrong when the subject is technical.

What's under the hood of your car? A motor? or an engine? Doesn't matter when you're just chatting, sure matters when you go to buy a part...

[jetinteriorguy]

Originally Posted by Driftwood Johnson

Good luck trying to figure out what you want to know from the Shooter's Handbook. I have been shooting CAS for almost 20 years and still have to search through multiple pages to find exactly what I want to know. Good luck to a Newbie.




Here is the Shooter's Handbook definition of what makes an acceptable revolver cartridge in CAS.

"Must be centerfire calibers of at least .32 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber or percussion calibers of at least .36 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber. Must be in a caliber commonly available in revolvers. Examples include, but are not limited to, .32-20, .32 Magnum, .357 Magnum, .38 Special, .44 Magnum, .44-40, and .45 Colt."

Notice the examples listed are not a finite list, just a few obvious ones. Also notice it does not say acceptable cartridges must have been in existence during the 19th Century. 44 Mag and 357 Mag did not exist in the 19th Century. So yes, 41 Mag would be acceptable as a revolver cartridge as long as it was loaded with lead bullets and velocity was under 1000 fps. (under 1400 fps when fired from a rifle) Those are the general rules for the least restrictive categories. As categories change, ammo requirements can get more restrictive, for instance all cartridges must be at least 40 caliber in the Classic Cowboy category. That means no 38s in that category, but 38-40 is actually 40 caliber, so it is OK in Classic Cowboy. Too much information, I know, but I have been doing this for a long time.



Here is the Shooter's Handbook definition of Main Match rifles:

"Rifles or carbines used in the main and team matches must be original or replicas of lever or slide action rifles manufactured during the period from approximately 1860 until 1899, incorporating a tubular magazine and exposed hammer. Rifles with box magazines may not be used. Certain shooting categories require a specific type of rifle and ammunition to be used."

Here is the information about Main Match rifle ammunition. (When it says Main Match, that is what we are talking about, not the 'specialty' events such as long range precision rifle matches. Those are different events and do not usually happen at a regular monthly match)

"Must be centerfire of at least .32 caliber and not larger than .45 caliber. Must be in a caliber commonly available in revolvers. Examples include, but are not limited to, .32-20, .32 Magnum, .357 Magnum, .38 Special, .38-40, .44-40, .44 Special, .44 Magnum, and .45 Colt. The only allowed exceptions are the .25-20 and .56-50. No rifle calibers such as .30-30 or .38-55 are allowed. Buckaroo/Buckarette Category competitors choosing to utilize .22 caliber firearms must use standard velocity .22 caliber rim-fire ammunition only."

Notice it says cartridges commonly available in revolvers. That's why we call them 'pistol caliber' rifles. Cartridges such as 30-30, which will not fit in a typical revolver cylinder, are not allowed in Main Match rifles.

When you ask about a Henry rifle, particularly one chambered for 41 Mag, I assume you are talking about the Big Boy. When the Big Boy first came out it was not approved as a SASS legal rifle. There were those who said with its brass frame it looked just like a Winchester Model 1866, so it should be allowed. There were others, myself included, who said no way, even with its brass frame the Big Boy was not a reasonable replica of the Winchester 1866. To make matters worse, Henry Repeating Arms began promoting the Big Boy as a SASS approved rifle when in fact the Territorial Governors had not made a ruling on it, so there was a lot of confusion. A couple of years later the TGs revisited the question and specifically included the Big Boy as a SASS legal Main Match rifle, however it is not legal in the Classic Cowboy category. Frankly, there are much better choices of rifles for CAS than the Big Boy. Yes, I have fired one. They are heavier than most other rifles, and do not always function very smoothly. But if you are wedded to using 41 Mag, it is the only rifle I am aware of chambered for the cartridge.

By the way, there is nothing saying you revolvers and rifle have to be chambered for the same cartridge. I have been shooting 45 Colt in my revolvers and 44-40 in my rifles for years. I just have to pay attention not to try to stuff 45s into my 44-40 rifle, which would leave me in a heck of a fix.

If you consider a different caliber for your rifle, it opens up a lot more possibilities than the Big Boy. At one time Marlin was chambering their Model 1894 for 41 Mag, but not anymore.

Thanks for your nicely detailed answer. That’s pretty much the way I interpreted things after reading the rules. I’m actually referring to a Big Boy Steel version, not the brass receiver version. I was mostly curious from the standpoint of the OP having this option, I myself have no particular interest in CAS.

[Bob Wright]

As to J.P. Sauer & Sohn, they sold off their Single Action business to Weirich (?) and have joined with the firm of Sig to become Sig Sauer. Weirich, as I understand it, still makes the Single Action revolver under the name of the Great Western II. So far as I know, replacement parts are available from Numrich (Gun Parts Corp.). Some parts I know of, the trigger guard and backstrap, are interchangeable with Uberti guns, though monor fitting may be required.

Bob Wright

[Crunchy Frog]

Originally Posted by Bob Wright

As to J.P. Sauer & Sohn, they sold off their Single Action business to Weirich (?) and have joined with the firm of Sig to become Sig Sauer. Weirich, as I understand it, still makes the Single Action revolver under the name of the Great Western II. So far as I know, replacement parts are available from Numrich (Gun Parts Corp.). Some parts I know of, the trigger guard and backstrap, are interchangeable with Uberti guns, though monor fitting may be required.

Bob Wright

The German revolver is now imported by EAA (European American Armory, I believe) as the Bounty Hunter revolver.

EMF (Early and Modern Firearms) imports and sells Pietta cartridge revolvers under the name Great Western 2.

[Rifletom]

Correct, ^^^ this is what I have. Pietta Great Western II, Gunfighter series. Excellent revolver. Looking at another Pietta, either .357/38 spl or .45 Colt.

[jackmoser65]

I recently exchanged e-mails with a gentlemen who is the SASS head honcho for one of the two SASS regions in my state. He commented that to get into CAS, between the guns and the period-correct clothing required, you're looking at plus or minus $10,000. Yes -- that's TEN THOUSAND DOLLARS.

That is just patently false. I don't doubt that some spent that much and more but to think that you have to spend that to get into it is just ridiculous.

Two revolvers $1000
Rifle $600-$800
Shotgun $500
Leather $300
Let's just say you're going to get a single period correct outfit with a felt hat and decent boots, so maybe $1000. That's $3600 without even trying to save money but you could easily get by with spending a lot less on your guns, leather and costume.

I've never found the old model Rugers (3 screw) to have triggers any better than the new models.

My preference is for OM's but I've had literally dozens of each. Never had an OM that absolutely needed tuning. Most are a crisp 2-3lbs out of the box. Never had NM that did not need professional help. It's not even close. The transfer bar needs creep to work so it will always have that against it. They're always gritty and heavy. A tuned NM with a proper 2-3lb letoff will make you think an untuned NM is broken.

The rest are just imitations. Good imitations, yes... but still not the real thing. I still have a few of them... but they are safe queens now. Life is too short to carry a fake.
In my opinion, Nothing beats a genuine Colt.

I will quite often take the "fake, imitation, not the real thing" over the "genuine" Colt. They are more often than not a much better value with 99.99% of the appeal. In the case of USFA and now Standard Mfg, they're 100% of the appeal of the original 1st generation guns. The only "real thing" in my opinion. The Colt SAA is one of the most overrated revolvers in existence. An over-polished 3rd gen is a far cry from the original guns.