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Old August 15, 2019, 02:28 AM   #26
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca
Do Belgians need a visa to visit the United States? Looks like Belgians are eligible for the Visa Waiver Program (VWP):
https://be.usembassy.gov/visas/visa-waiver-program/

If she doesn't need a visa, then it would appear that the prohibition does not apply to her. [I'm not sure I understand how the BATFE arrived at that interpretation, but that's why I'm not a lawyer.]
Having re-read the BATFE Q&A on this topic, it should be noted that they state and reiterate in several of the answers that non-immigrant aliens who are present in the U.S. without a visa (i.e. under the visa waiver program) are not prohibited from possessing or receiving firearms, BUT they must satisfy residency requirements in the state where the transfer or possession will occur.

To the BATFE, this means the person is in the state with the intention of making that state their home. By definition, a European who is in the United States for a week or three as a tourist or a personal house guest is not here with the intention of making the U.S. their home. Thus, the VWP "loophole" looked good initially, but when you actually read the supporting documentation, it doesn't appear to offer any relief after all.

https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/...nspdf/download

Quote:
A4. ...

To acquire a firearm, you must demonstrate the intention of making a home in a particular State. The intention of making a home in a State must be demonstrated to a Federal firearms licensee by presenting valid government issued identification documents indicating an address in the state in which the licensee’s place of business is located. Such documents include, but are not limited to, driver’s licenses, voter registration, tax records, or vehicle registration. For more information, see ATF Ruling 2001-5 available at:
http://atf.gov/regulations-rulings/r...ng-2001-5.html.
Quote:
A5. A nonimmigrant alien who is lawfully admitted to the United States without a visa (e.g. Visa Waiver Program), may acquire or possess a firearm in the United States, provided that he or she is not prohibited from shipping, transporting, receiving, or possessing firearms or ammunition in the U.S.

In addition, a nonimmigrant alien legally in the United States with or without a nonimmigrant visa may lawfully acquire a firearm only if he/she meets State of residence requirements as required by the Federal government. For more information, see ATF Ruling 2010-6 at: http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulin...ing-2010-6.pdf.
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Old August 15, 2019, 09:16 AM   #27
kenny53
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Tailgator, Just wondering if there is any open land near you? I was thinking if I ran across this problem I would grab my guns and head for the desert. We spend the day blasting away and never see another human. I don't know how federal or state land use is in Florida but here in the Beehive state we have 10's of thousands of square miles of open land. Side note we pick up our trash after we are done, Hope you find a answer for your problem before the young lady arrives,
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Old August 15, 2019, 09:36 AM   #28
Frank Ettin
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Originally Posted by kenny53
...if I ran across this problem I would grab my guns and head for the desert....
It’s still illegal for a prohibited person to have access to a gun, and whoever gives the prohibited person access is still guilty of aiding and abetting. Being out in the wilds won’t make anyone less of a criminal. It just decreases the chances of getting caught.

Not getting caught committing a crime is not the same as being legal. On TFL it is never acceptable to condone or suggest ways of getting away with a crime as a strategy for dealing with an in convenient law.
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Old August 15, 2019, 09:51 AM   #29
kenny53
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To be honest I didn't think about the legality of the situation. I was locked on to shooting. I would check with the state attorney generals office or BATF for an answer. I would think they could answer the question better then guys hiding behind a keyboard.
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Old August 15, 2019, 10:11 AM   #30
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenny53
To be honest I didn't think about the legality of the situation. I was locked on to shooting. I would check with the state attorney generals office or BATF for an answer. I would think they could answer the question better then guys hiding behind a keyboard.
State attorneys general don't answer questions for the populace, they exist to answer questions for the state government. Since this is a federal law, state attorneys general aren't authorized to interpret it in any case.

The BATFE has already answered the question. Frank provided some links. I provided some links, in post #26. All you have to do is click the links to see what the BATFE has already said on the subject.
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Old August 15, 2019, 11:19 AM   #31
TailGator
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Maybe Frank Ettin or Spats McGee will correct me, but I would think that if the range has a sign-in log that shows each customer's address, and if she signed in with her home address and spoke with a Belgian accent, it's entirely possible that the range employee and owner might also be charged as accessories. The old "You knew or should have known" routine ...
The range checked IDs, and hers, of course, was a Belgian passport and, I believe, a EU driver license. The range we used before didn't check IDs, probably because I am a regular.

Some of the discussion seems to be moving towards more permanent transfer of firearms, but if I correctly understand those who are familiar with the statute and case law, even transferring a firearm for a few minutes at a range or shooting out in an un-populated area would be illegal. I probably should shut up on the subject until the statue of limitations expires, because it may have been illegal for me to have taken her shooting on her prior trips, too, since I am the one who let her use my pistols.
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Old August 15, 2019, 12:00 PM   #32
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca
....To the BATFE, this means the person is in the state with the intention of making that state their home. By definition, a European who is in the United States for a week or three as a tourist or a personal house guest is not here with the intention of making the U.S. their home. Thus, the VWP "loophole" looked good initially, but when you actually read the supporting documentation, it doesn't appear to offer any relief after all.....
You raise an important point. Even a non-prohibited person, like a foreign tourist visiting under the Visa Waiver Program or a foreign national visiting on a nonimmigrant visa but having a hunting license, must still comply with all other applicable laws, including state and federal laws dealing with the acquisition and/or possession of firearms. So a visiting foreign national, even if he falls within an exception to the bar of 18 USC 922(g)(5) won't be able to buy, or receive a gift of, a gun.

However, all is not necessarily lost. One will need to take a close look at other federal and state laws.

For example, 18 USC 922(a)(5):
Quote:
(a) It shall be unlawful—
...

(5) for any person ... to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person ...who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in ... the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
(A)....

(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;...
So if a visiting foreign national may lawfully possess a gun, I can take him target shooting and load him a gun to use. A hunting guide could rent a visiting foreign national with a hunting license a gun to use on a guided hunt.

State laws could make things trickier. For example, in California I can only loan a gun to someone who is not a member of my family if he uses it in my presence. But that would still let me take a buddy visiting on a Visa Waiver to the range for some target practice.
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