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Old March 7, 2021, 10:30 AM   #26
ocharry
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i have been following along and there is some good advice for sure....but.... i think for me at this point ,if i had a dog in the fight, i would just request my money back from them or have the CC company get it back or a lawyer and they could keep their ju....uhhh rifle

my reason would be that you sent a defective rifle back to them for legit manufacturing problems and seems they have lost it somewhere in the system.. or so they say...they also will not respond to the customer and i would be afraid that IF i ever get the rifle back and IF it is working like it is supposed to that IF down the road something breaks i would have to deal with this crap all over again

so for me to be made whole again with less head ache, my money back would be the answer i would pursue on this.....i understand it is a gun...BUT it is a faulty gun and these people dont seem to care about that or they would be on top of the problem and NOT leave a customer hanging out to dry

i mean really in 4 months if they really wanted to make you happy......dont you think something would have happened by now.....other than crickets???

i had a similar problem with Springfield....well i should not say that....i should say i had a manufacturing defect from Springfield....and they...Springfield... replaced the gun and it went through the custom shop and back in my hands in 9 days..and 2 of those days were shipping

so for me money back is where i would want to end up.....and then move on

ocharry
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Old March 13, 2021, 10:29 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by GJeffB View Post
Yeah, let me cover both replies.

White Eagle, thanks for the info, I have that from the website.
HiBC, I have been probably as polite as I ever have been given the building frustration. One of the polite correspondences was indeed to Harvey via email. No response. And the email having not bounced as an invalid address, it's a pretty good guess it was delivered.

It's not the repair time at issue. It's the absolute cessation of all communication. As an aside, I just today saw another thread where the poster has been calling Cimarron and never gets an answer.

Finally, time is running out for my merchant dispute period with the credit card. At this time, I had to file the billing dispute or risk loosing the chance.

Thanks for the information guys

-jb
Sorry for your troubles and hope that you will be made whole soon.

But I'm glad you posted this as I've been in the market for an 1873 rifle.

I was seriously thinking Cimarron as they sell the 1873 with the features I like. But based on your issues I'm scratching them off the list.

Thanks again.
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Old March 14, 2021, 12:11 PM   #28
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Foghorn, I was waiting for a resolution before posting a wrap up, but I have to be fair to all involved. First and foremost Cimarron is in central Texas and apparently got whacked by the snowstorm. They lost power, food, water, telephones, every communication possible. So there's that.
Next. The CSR got in touch with me this past Thursday, the 11th. Apparently (I have no reason to disbelieve) the rifle WAS sent to the Chiappa factory in Ohio in mid-January. The factory just didn't know it (SMH). They sat on it for almost 2 months, then denied to me AND Cimarron that they had it despite shipping and receiving documentation. The factory finally located it and returned it to Cimarron with a description "retightened barrel." That's it. No test fire, no evaluation of how/why the barrel became loose, nada. And finally, the Customer Service Rep at Cimarron advises the wood forearm apparently has 2 new "indentations" that weren't there when sent to the factory. So it's pretty certain the problems aren't with Cimarron, but rather with Chiappa. The original Seller, MidwayUSA.com is intervening, and the Cimarron CSR is trying to see if I get money back, or a new rifle, or ... That decision will probably be the telling factor about Cimarron Firearms Customer service.

I just don't want anybody assuming blame on one place or another until it all plays out. Certainly the purchase decision remains your.

-jb
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Old March 29, 2021, 10:20 PM   #29
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x-post
3/29/2021, dragging this out absurdly. I'll understand if a mod wants it closed.
I'm *really* trying to keep it objective and not vindictive ...
Midway has bailed: no refunds on guns, it's a drop ship, blah blah. I got it, Midway is clearly upfront, "non returnable item." I don't like it, but it's clear.
Since last update March 11 I've inquired 3 times, including to "sales" asking for a reply from the CSR. I have no idea (AGAIN) where the rifle is. No idea what the damage is [an aside: CSR was to email me 9 pictures of the "indentations," never happened]. I've requested exact replacement, substitute replacements (higher priced), or refund. Cimarron has again gone dark. [sarcasm] perhaps another snow storm [/sarcasm].
BBB complaint filed tonight.

-jb, no rifle, no replacement, no money, no Chiappa, never again Cimarron
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Old March 30, 2021, 08:04 AM   #30
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What a shame. I hope cimarron gets it right, jb.
Please continue with the updates.
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Old April 2, 2021, 07:46 PM   #31
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For what it's worth, I have heard some disparaging remarks about Chiappa in the past.
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Old April 3, 2021, 01:23 PM   #32
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I suspect you'll be hearing more shortly ...

-jb, juuust about done
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Old May 2, 2021, 10:28 PM   #33
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x-posted again

Apparently closing out the thread. This should be the last post on the subject, and I appreciate the patience of all who have followed it dragging out.

My expectations have been, since 12/29/2020, a satisfactory repair of a factory defective rifle. The rifle was “lost" for ~2 months. That has failed. After inadequate “repair” the rifle was returned to Cimarron with ADDITIONAL damage. That was obviously a fail. I’ve asked for a replacement. Ignored. I’ve asked for a refund twice. Ignored. I’ve gone through periods of months without response or explanation. Last update:

March 29 BBB complaint filed and accepted.

March 31 I’m advised by Cimarron that the rifle was *again* returned to the “factory” to repair/replace the fore end damaged created at the first attempt to repair. No reply since.

May 1 response from BBB that they asked for a response from Cimarron and received none. Subsequently the BBB called the business for a response and received none. The BBB is closing the complaint as “unanswered” and will report it on the business for 3 years. The BBB suggests [exact quote] “You may consider legal advice to assist further with your complaint”

Bringing suit across 3 states (my Colorado residence, Cimarron’s business location, Texas, and “the factory” in Ohio) is beyond my scope. After extensive explanations and excuses from Cimarron Customer Service, I felt guilty for being demanding. Now that a formal Better Business Bureau complaint has also been ignored, I feel not so much.

I’m repeatedly asked if I expect to ever receive my property. I must sadly now reply that I honestly don’t know. Regardless of a company’s backlog, I’d expect a factory defect to be run to the front of the queue, perhaps ahead of bluing issues, “doesn’t shoot to point of aim,” and the such. Beyond that, I’d expect a factory return to not be lost for 2 months. And finally, I’d expect a second return for factory damage to be first in line. None such has happened.

I’ve taken up way too much bandwidth. I have never and never will call for avoiding a vendor, so I’ll let all who follow this tale make their own purchase decision. For me … never again.

-jb, YMMV, thanks for following
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Old May 3, 2021, 02:09 AM   #34
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It might be worth a call to your local BATFE office to ask if there's anything they can do. At this point, you paid good money for a firearm that has been taken from you without explanation or compensation. That's sort of like theft. I think there's a legal term for it -- something like "unlawful conversion" or something like that.

The BATFE isn't going to intervene in warranty squabbles, but they should be interested when a firearm is stolen or goes missing.
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Old May 6, 2021, 09:44 PM   #35
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Eagle, I'm late replying. I've read your post over and over to craft a proper response. As best I can:

IANAL. But this is clearly a civil, customer service issue, and I think not to claim any sort of theft/conversion. My purpose is to illuminate the customer service of an importer. I don't think they've stolen my rifle. I expect (?) to get it "someday." The complaint is them accepting it as a defective rifle (Cimarron's description). Sending it to a "factory" who promptly lost it, and Cimarron did not follow up on it promptly. Cimarron receiving it back after locating it after a potentially inadequate repair. Cimarron received it back from "the factory" with *additional/new* damage. And did not raise holy stuff with the repair facility. And only after my 2nd complaint did Cimarron return the additional damage to "the factory", apparently to just be put in the usual repair que, no priority after the cluster flops. Cimarron has failed to communicate with me, time and time again. Cimarron has failed to communicate with the Better Business Bureau complaint inquiries. I doubt Cimarron Firearms has "stolen"/converted my property and I can't in good faith allege that to any authority. I can in good conscience accuse Cimarron Firearms of failure to adequately take care of the rifle, promptly follow up on it, reply to my inquiries, and otherwise provide even a modicum of customer service beyond excuses and passing blame to "the factory." Nothing arising to (AFAIK) criminal conduct. Just some of the worst customer service I've ever experienced. Requests for expedited service - ignored; requests for replacement - ignored; requests (2) for refund - ignored. Everything is the fault of a 3rd party ("factory" in Ohio). I am not a factory's customer. I am Cimarron's customer.

The tale told is not to advocate for a avoidance of Cimarron Firearms. It's informational about my experience. Am I a 1 in a million customer issue? Strains credulity to think so. Followers of this cluster flock may make their own purchase decisions.

-jb, not me not ever again
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Old May 7, 2021, 09:52 AM   #36
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Bet those factory "repair" shops are contracted out by Chiappa and are small operations - hence the lack of response or their very slow ability to repair things.
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Old May 7, 2021, 10:11 AM   #37
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May be time for a trip to your local small claims court for recovery of property.
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Old May 7, 2021, 03:38 PM   #38
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Although there may be incompetence involved (there often is), also consider that firearms parts availability in general is difficult right now. Italy (where the Chiappa/Armisport factory is) was hit particularly hard by COVID, so parts for products made there are very hard to get at present. Chiappa in Ohio is just an import warehouse, not a factory. When they need parts that are not in stock, they call the factory in Italy and it gets put on a boat and shipped to the USA, where the ship can sit off-shore for months waiting to be unloaded by the terminal Longshoremen (check the news, ships are waiting months to be unloaded). Last year a customer of mine brought in a Pedersoli Sharps barrel to be installed that he waited almost a year to get (we could have made him one for a lot less time and money). I recently went through this same situation waiting for parts from Asia. So keep up the phone calls and emails and don't despair.
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Old May 7, 2021, 04:30 PM   #39
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Scorch, I've seen some very good advice from you. You comment serves as just 1 more inconsistency in Cimarron's story. Specifically, the very first instruction was to ship the rifle to "our [Cimarron's] gunsmith" for an initial evaluation. That gunsmith is apparently a 1 man contractor located in Brian TX (Cimarron is in Fredricksburg TX). I was informed by Cimarron that their gunsmith immediately determined the rifle to be defective and shipped to "the factory" for repair. No discussion of an import station for parts replacement. Cimarron also described that the *factory* in Ohio provided a repair report that they spent .40 hr on repairs consisting of "retightened barrel." So somewhere along the line Cimarron has upgraded the Ohio facility to a "factory." Since Cimarron originally had the rifle go to their (presumably contractor) gunsmith (Jackrabbit rifles), I can't imagine shipping it to/from Ohio so some yahoo could put a wrench on the barrel for 24 minutes. But then, I couldn't imagine this whole scenario.

WADR, I do appreciate the comment however. I add it to the expanding list of discrepancies I've received. I am continuing the contact attempts, again with no response.

-jb, walking the fine line between patience and run around
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Old May 8, 2021, 01:27 AM   #40
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Is your credit card company giving you any help?

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Old May 9, 2021, 12:41 PM   #41
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Biker, that's an amazing twist that everyone should be aware of. Back to the beginning:
Rifle is a Chiappa brand, sold by Cimarron, through Midway. Think of Midway as a shooting sports Amazon. Much of what is sold is from other than Midway brand. Up front, Midway is clear "all firearms sales are final, non-returnable." Initially I filed a credit card dispute. But remember where the credit card payment went to - Midway. When I notified Midway of the problem I told them it was a courtesy, my complaint was with Cimarron, but Midway might get sucked in. Midway advised me [ready for this?] that if I filed the dispute, I would be *banned* from ever doing business with them Since my complaint was with Cimarron I cancelled the dispute. Midway then offered to help remedy. After a hopeful email exchange, they let me know I was on my own, they wouldn't intervene. So Cimarron/Chiappa is effectively insulated from a credit card dispute. Slick, huh?

-jb, pretty much thought of all angles
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Old May 9, 2021, 01:46 PM   #42
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I would file the credit card complaint, get my money back, and happily never do business with Midway again. You're not asking to return a firearm. You are asking that a product THEY sold be repaired, or that you be made whole if your rifle has gone AWOL. If Larry won't stand behind a product he sold, he's not someone I want to do business with.
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Old May 9, 2021, 03:53 PM   #43
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If you ever get your rifle back, seek out a real gunsmith.

A friend had one of those Numrich barrels to convert a Rolling Block .43 whatever to .45-70. It was loose in the action. He would still plink a little with it but it mostly sat idle until we finally got it off to the local shop. The gunsmith set back the shoulder so it would screw in tight with the sights vertical. Then he faced off the rear until the breechblock would close. A rented reamer corrected the chamber, and he cut the extractor notch. It shoots quite well now.
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Old May 11, 2021, 10:52 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca View Post
I would file the credit card complaint, get my money back, and happily never do business with Midway again. You're not asking to return a firearm. You are asking that a product THEY sold be repaired, or that you be made whole if your rifle has gone AWOL. If Larry won't stand behind a product he sold, he's not someone I want to do business with.
Agreed. There is little that one can get from Midway that cannot be gotten elsewhere for about the same money...

Tony
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Old May 15, 2021, 05:56 PM   #45
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AB and Geezer, I'm not trying to be contrary, but keep in mind
Quote:
Up front, Midway is clear "all firearms sales are final, non-returnable."
I love Midway, but regardless of Midway or any other reseller/drop shipper, there's that circular logic that protects them: credit card dispute is just that - a dispute, not a warranty. The credit card dispute goes nowhere because of the No Return/No Refund policy AND the merchandise is warranted by Cimarron, not Midway; and there's no recourse against Cimarron/Chiappa because ... well that's not who the credit card "paid."

To me it sounds like "wah-wah, nothing I can do." In reality, there's nothing I can do, minus the wah-wah It would be the same situation if I had bought from GunCroaker, or any other reseller/agent. The total recourse is leaving "feedback." Considering the experience, I REALLY wonder what if I'd bought from ... Cabela's/BPS, Sportsman's Warehouse, etc etc. [not that I'm casting *any* aspersions on any other online vendor]. For that matter, a brick and mortar LGS. At least they don't have that 3rd party intermediary, i.e. Cimarron between Chiappa and Midway. [shrug] In the end, we're really dependent upon the seller's (Cimarron, Ruger, S&W, Jennings, whatever) integrity to properly and completely honor a warranty.

-jb, on the look out for All Sales Final
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Old May 15, 2021, 06:32 PM   #46
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Whether or not the warranty/repair work was done,whether or not the forend was damaged, you bought and paid for a rifle.
You own the rifle.

At some point,regardless of its condition, its been stolen from you.
You might pursue it as a stolen firearm. Someone is employing a thief.

Actually,there is probably some employee who has it stashed under a bench.hoping you will go away. Its not going in any dumpster.

Tell them (whoever "them"is) you are contacting the BATF about a stolen firearm.
Or,don't tell them. Just report it stolen.

Time for being a nice guy is over. If someone gets arrested or loses a job or an ffl, GOOD!!! They earned it. If nothing else,the sn will be flagged. It should come up stolen if transferred. You might recover it.

Last edited by HiBC; May 15, 2021 at 06:42 PM.
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Old May 15, 2021, 07:04 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by GJeffB
I love Midway, but regardless of Midway or any other reseller/drop shipper, there's that circular logic that protects them: credit card dispute is just that - a dispute, not a warranty. The credit card dispute goes nowhere because of the No Return/No Refund policy AND the merchandise is warranted by Cimarron, not Midway; and there's no recourse against Cimarron/Chiappa because ... well that's not who the credit card "paid."
I'm not a lawyer, but there is such a thing as an "implied warranty of merchantability." That means when a merchant undertakes to sell something, they implicitly warrant to the buyer that the gizmo is suitable for doing whatever it is that gizmos are supposed to do. Midway is a dealer -- a merchant. They sell things to people, and the people who buy those things expect them to work. For a huge merchant like Midway to sell a clearly defective product and then sit back when it fails on the very first shot is not a good business practice, and it may run afoul of the implied warranty of merchantability doctrine.

A number of years ago, Ciener (the guy who makes the .22 conversions for 1911s and Hi-Powers) was doing some really shady stuff, like taking payment but not shipping, not answering the phone, not responding to other means of contact, etc. I wanted a .22 conversion for my 1911, but I didn't trust buying it from Ciener. At the time, Brownells was selling them, so I bought mine from Brownells. I paid $20 more from Brownells than I would have if I had bought directly from Ciener, but from other reports I knew that Brownells would take care of the customer if there was a problem.

The circumstances were the same. Brownells was not the manufacturer, and Brownells did issue the warranty. But ... Brownells cares enough about their customers that they were willing to either go to bat or absorb a loss if there was a problem. (And apparently there were problems, because not long after I bought mine Brownells dropped the Ciener conversions.)

It wouldn't hurt Larry Potterfield to pick up the phone and call Mike Harvey about a gun that only went bang once. I think Midway has a moral responsibility to help you, and they may have a legal responsibility to help you.

And I second the motion to report the gun as stolen.
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Last edited by Aguila Blanca; May 15, 2021 at 07:08 PM. Reason: clarification and correction of terminology
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Old May 15, 2021, 08:46 PM   #48
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Gotta let this go dead, re-flagellating the deceased equine again, and again, and
Quote:
I'm not a lawyer
... operative

Quote:
It wouldn't hurt Larry Potterfield to pick up the phone and call Mike Harvey
yeah, my whine over and over again. It was actually my request of Cimarron "Mike" to light up Chiappa. Nada, zero, zilch, nada.

Quote:
And I second the motion to report the gun as stolen.
[Sleepy Joe] C'mon Man! [/Sleepy Joe]
File a false report for lousy, rotten, stinking service? Not moi

Amazingly, the day I re- re- re- complained to Cimarron, CSR told me he had *just* called Chiappa the day before. [coincidence number 7,346? <--sarcasm] and miraculously they were done with the gun, after cuddling it for another month+. Thanks for the timely follow up It would be soon re- re-sent to Cimarron who would then forward it to me. Stolen? nah. Lousy, worthless follow up on a brand new purchase - yeah. As I suggested earlier: Ruger? S&W? Even fleekin' Jennings?

Good luck with your business model Cimarron. Sell a POS, blame it on "the factory," offer no replacement nor refund and blame 3rd party. That's a winning strategy. <-- sarcasm x 10

-jb, out for like the 17th time
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Old May 15, 2021, 10:37 PM   #49
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Please post when it finally comes home, to let us know if they fixed it.
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Old May 16, 2021, 01:53 AM   #50
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One thing for sure, I seriously doubt that any of us that read this thread would ever buy a rifle from Midway.

When I worked in bike shops we were told that a happy customer might tell someone. An unhappy customer will tell every one. I think Midway just shot themselves in the foot on this one...

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