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Old December 23, 2020, 11:48 AM   #51
Tennessee Gentleman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
If so, be scared.
Trump in four years managed to implement more anti Second Amendment actions than Obama did in eight years.
I am scared. Biden may take a page out of the Trump playbook and direct the BATFE to begin to redefine things as the Shockwave which was a rather liberal interpretation of current definitions?
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Old December 23, 2020, 02:34 PM   #52
dogtown tom
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zoo One must have the specific intent described in the corpus delecti (elements) of the statute to be guilty of the crime. We’re talking about pistol braces, right?
Wrong.
The judge/jury decides if the accused had specific intent and his guilt. If it makes it that far the accused has already spent considerable $$$ on his defense. So the ride may be expensive.

Just because you don't plan to use your shoulder stock as a shoulder stock doesn't change the law.

Not just pistol braces are at issue.





Quote:
Being prosecuted when following the letter of the law is clearly a case of unlawful shenanigans on the part of a tyrannical authority.
While the accused may think they were following "the letter of the law", I'll bet 99% of those who bought "arm braces" never read a single paragraph of ATF regs or the NFA, instead relying on the information provided by the manufacturer. And that's scary.

Since 1934 the NFA has required a tax on pistols with a shoulder stock. So "the letter of the law" is eighty six years old. The manufacturers and sellers of "arm braces" are relying on an ATF determination letter that represents ATFs current opinion on the legality of the arm brace design that was submitted.

Those determination letters are not law or regulation and subject to change at any time. There are literally hundreds if not thousands of these determination letters and believe it or not.......no central file, registry or database where they can be viewed. Why would they not be published or part of public record? I believe because ATF would be embarrassed at the conflicting opinions they are giving out.

Often a determination letter is issued only to have one a few months or years later with a different determination. Being an FN/Browning Hi Power collector I'm aware of these conflicting determination letters on attaching a shoulder stock to certain Inglis Hi Power pistols:
1981 letter saying reproductions are okay:http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/atf_letter58.txt
1999 letter saying reproductions require NFA tax: http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/atf_letter70.txt

More than a few Hi Power collectors hold to the belief that the 1981 letter is law and conveniently ignore the 1999 letter.





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To accuse the victims of such unlawful prosecutions of taunting the system is the equivalent of blaming rape victims for being raped, AB.
I disagree. That's a common statement when someone points out that the victim of a property crime might bear some responsibility for the actions that made them a victim.

Man next door sends $5000 via Western Union to a Nigerian prince to get his inheritance.
Kid leaves his bike in the front yard, bike is stolen.
Store owner leaves his doors unlocked, store is ransacked.
Gun show seller leaves his guns unsecured, someone walks off with one.
Rich guy who's had too much to drink, with a bankroll and a Rolex leaves a bar in a sketchy area, gets robbed in the parking lot.
Dad leaves his loaded pistol in nightstand, four year old finds it and a tragedy occurs.

Not a one of us would say "You can't blame the victim!!!" in the above examples. Yes, there is a victim in each, but there is an assumption of risk, a negligent act or lack of action in each of those. That's wholly different than rape or sexual assault where the overwhelming majority are NOT committed by strangers.
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Old December 23, 2020, 02:51 PM   #53
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoo
...To accuse the victims of such unlawful prosecutions of taunting the system is the equivalent of blaming rape victims for being raped....
Nope --
  1. What "unlawful prosecution"? Your opinion that prosecution under certain circumstances would be unlawful is irrelevant. That a question for a court, not you, to decide.

  2. The "don't blame the victim" meme merely means that the victim's failure to take appropriate care for his/her own safety doesn't excuse the criminal liability of the perpetrator.
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Old December 23, 2020, 04:54 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoo
One must have the specific intent described in the corpus delecti (elements) of the statute to be guilty of the crime. We’re talking about pistol braces, right?
Right. "Pistol" braces.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoo
Being prosecuted when following the letter of the law is clearly a case of unlawful shenanigans on the part of a tyrannical authority. To accuse the victims of such unlawful prosecutions of taunting the system is the equivalent of blaming rape victims for being raped, AB.
How do you arrive at the conclusion that using something that was approved for a "pistol" brace as a shoulder stock -- thereby creating a short barreled rifle as defined by federal law -- is "following the letter of the law"?
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Old December 23, 2020, 07:37 PM   #55
dogtown tom
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And just like that it's over for now.....

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ge...20pdf/download
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Old December 23, 2020, 09:03 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by dogtown tom View Post
Thanks Tom.
The operative words being "for now".
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Old December 23, 2020, 11:09 PM   #57
Frank Ettin
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If it starts up again, so can we. But for now we're done.
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