July 8, 2010, 01:35 PM | #201 | |
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There will no doubt be regulation that will satisfy the applicable test. But some of the more outlandish regulations, like a two round magazine capacity limitation, most likely will not be sustainable. |
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July 8, 2010, 01:54 PM | #202 | |
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Right.... but the discussion has been that the right is specific to self defense, particularly in the home. The "bear" issue is still to be decided I suppose, but it seems likely to me that if "bearing" goes with SD then the most applicable type of weapon is a handgun. I can easily see the antis saying that bolt action rifles are not "defensive", no rifle is really "bear-able", so they will make all sorts of restrictions. This is not to say that I believe that they will hold up to scrutiny, but it will take years to find out... in the mean time, we'd be SOL.
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July 8, 2010, 02:28 PM | #203 | |||
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Heller and McDonald both sued because they claimed they wanted to keep a gun at home for self defense. The Court said, that because the Second Amendment describes an individual right to keep and bear arms (not connected with service in a militia), and because the Second Amendment right to keep and bears arms is fundamental, and because the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms is fundamental and applicable, through the 14th Amendment, to the States, neither the District of Columbia (in Heller), nor the City of Chicago (in McDonald) can completely bar Heller or McDonald from doing so. But go back to post 139 Quote:
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But if also often happens that after a significant court decision, legislative bodies start to become reluctant to enact laws that are unlikely to survive challenge. It's not perfect, but there does seem to be some synergistic effect -- court decision tend to discourage the enactment of laws which would fail to survive legal challenge based on those court decisions. |
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July 8, 2010, 02:57 PM | #204 | |
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These are the things that worry me.
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July 8, 2010, 03:04 PM | #205 | |
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Fiddletown:
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July 8, 2010, 03:28 PM | #206 | ||
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But we shouldn't despair either. Of course everything didn't change overnight with McDonald, but it wasn't going to either. And we will have a lot of work to do for a lot of years. But we now have two powerful new tools to help us do that work -- Heller and McDonald. |
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July 8, 2010, 09:17 PM | #207 |
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McDonald is not the end, it is a beginning. It is a foundation on which to build. A foundation to use to educate the general public that the RKBA is a fundamental individual right. A foundation from which to litigate against unconstitutional laws. A foundation from which to pressure legislators to acknowledge the RKBA. A foundation with which to hold the mass media and talking heads accountable.
I too feel frustration at the obstructionism practiced by politicians and gun control advocates and government bureaucrats. But as has been said, we are winning, and we must continue the fight. "If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without blood shed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves." Churchill That quote reminds me of all those who fought for freedom - when their victory was not assured - when it meant taking up arms - when many paid the ultimate price to win or preserve liberty. Speaking only for myself - I have no room to complain - this is the work of liberty - and my burdens are surely light compared to my fathers and fore-fathers and those today who take up arms in defense of our nation and our homes. When I think of McDonald, I do not think only of the court case, I think of Mr. McDonald himself - a genuinely humble, honest, decent, and honorable man. I think of the man I met and the effect this simple man has had on our country and our fight for liberty. I know that Mr. Gura and the ISRA/SAF brought this case and that without them the would be no decision - but Mr. McDonald sought out the ISRA for help - he found them and they recommended him as a plaintiff to Mr. Gura. Mr. McDonald has been an inspiration to many people before and after this case - even the main stream media - predisposed to paint him as an uncle tom - were disarmed upon meeting him - as his real humility, sincerity, and dignity shown through. His example reminds me that we all may have an important role to play, that we all must be willing to put our shoulders to the wheel of freedom and push. Thus, when I feel frustrated or discouraged - I remember the sacrifices and the work done by those who have gone before - and I remember that it is not just the powerful and privileged who make a difference - but also the humble, honest, and sincere. |
July 9, 2010, 08:38 AM | #208 | |
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We are going to restore at least one facet of freedom, but it will take hard work. Nothing will be easy. There are still very powerful forces aligned against us. They will use every tool in their own arsenals to try and roll back our freedoms. We must continue to be wary and continue our hard work. We've got some sunshine on our backs for now. Let us take advantage of it and move forward. I hear a new lawsuit has already been filed against Chicago's new ordinance. We already have a thread discussing it. This is the synergy that we must continue to exploit against the anti-gun and pro-gun-control forces. While still feeling a bit uneasy regarding the future and the 4 justices aligned against us, I'm also feeling emoldened by our recent successes. Add to that the increasing number of states with liberalized concealed carry laws, and the fact that several states have already told the feds that any guns built entirely within those states are out of reach of federal gun control statutes. That battle will be fought eventually, but our side is already locking and loading. That's a good sign. I believe the fear of defeat has started to shift towards our enemies, and away from us.
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July 9, 2010, 11:26 AM | #209 | |
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Yes, the "respectable" arms could be banned but the political will to do so would have to follow the long process of removing those "evil" self defense arms. Politically it is not possible with the current rulings and landscape.
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July 9, 2010, 11:33 AM | #210 | |
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July 9, 2010, 11:54 PM | #211 | |
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We "won" Heller.. how many handguns are in DC? A year later?
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July 10, 2010, 12:25 AM | #212 |
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Pete. Where is all this negativity stemming from? Dude! Quit the gloom! In this moment in history where the tide is turning against the anti gun movement and two of the biggest cases concerning the 2nd Amendment have set the cornerstones and foundation for much further progress you ferrously, repeatedly and furiously adhere to such negativity?
Rome was not built overnight. |
July 10, 2010, 03:16 AM | #213 |
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peetzakilla, you have to be a little patient. Heller and McDonald were great victories, but you can't expect social change overnight.
Just to put it into perspective, Brown v Board of Education outlawed school segregation in 1954, but George Wallace vowed "segregation forever" nine years later in 1963 and schools weren't actually segregated until the mid 60's. There's a lot of social inertia to overcome. The gun bigots in Chicago and DC will drag their feet as long as they can, but the tide has turned and they will eventually be defeated. |
July 10, 2010, 09:08 AM | #214 |
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You guys are seeing this backwards....
I'm not all doom and gloom and impatient. I'm trying to temper the over-excitement of the people who act like we just won the war and there'll be high-cap handguns on every hip in Chicago by next weekend. Philosophically, Heller and McDonald are a big deal. Practically, for a good while, they're meaningless. "Foundation", "building blocks", "Rome wasn't built in a day", yes. Rome will be a great place, for our children. That's great, but there's no reason to get all up in a tizzy about it today. I'd be surprised if I can still see well enough to shoot by the time there's a major change on the ground, and I'm 35.
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July 10, 2010, 10:38 AM | #215 | |
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July 10, 2010, 10:55 AM | #216 | |
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July 10, 2010, 11:02 AM | #217 | |
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Philosophically, huge. Practically, "foundation" "cornerstone" "building blocks" "...Rome..."... all great. All without practical significance until the rest is built.
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July 10, 2010, 11:17 AM | #218 |
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Pete you say you're not doom and gloom but you're making a tougth case against yourself. Vive la diference.
Last edited by Maromero; July 10, 2010 at 11:35 AM. |
July 10, 2010, 12:16 PM | #219 |
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You call it "Doom and Gloom", I call it realism.
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July 10, 2010, 12:19 PM | #220 |
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And you are entitled to call it anyway you like. Great nation that guarantees the right to free speech. It wasn't allways like that you know. Great nation indeed.
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July 10, 2010, 12:44 PM | #221 | |
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July 10, 2010, 08:07 PM | #222 | |
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July 10, 2010, 09:19 PM | #223 |
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I am also cautiously optimistic that some jurisdictions may turn out to be more rational than Chicago and D.C. Some of the states that are currently "may issue" could easily be looking at the fine print in both Heller and McDonald and recognizing that "may issue" may not pass muster if/when challenged. Not every such jurisdiction is ruled by demagogues like Daley and Bloomie -- some of them may decide on their own initiative that it would make more sense to get with the program and make their permits "shall issue" rather than engage in lengthy (and costly) court battles they're virtually guaranteed to lose.
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July 11, 2010, 11:34 AM | #224 | ||
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http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/11/op...ml?ref=opinion
This is a strange editorial in some senses. First, the Times denies the right to keep and bear arms for the citizen. However, since it is settled law (for now), the Times criticizes Chicago's new rules as they shift training and selling out of the city to the burbs. See: Quote:
But they get back on track! Old women can't defend themselves and should just call the law: Quote:
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July 11, 2010, 12:24 PM | #225 | |
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Consider just the fees and costs aspects of the DC and Chicago laws. Both cities have built structures that effectively attempt to make guns too expensive to own. By going overboard, they tempt the courts to find the aggregate fees and costs to be an unconstitutional tax on the exercise of a right. Starting with more modest fees and costs would not present us with a good opportunity for such a result. |
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