Open Carry Vs. Concealed carry

[Wildalaska]

There are times and places where it is not appropriate.

In other words, mature, reasoned judgement.

IMHO, that does not include "educating the sheeple", among other things.

WilditsnottheactitstheattitudeAlaska TM

[Tanzer]

Doug,
Let's shake and make up. Just don't accuse me of being unintelligent - Brings out my Irish. Sorry if I got cranky.

[Tanzer]

Did I mention I'm quitting smoking???

[DougO83]

haha...the smoking comment was meant to be tongue in cheek, you replied before I went back to edit in smileys

[Tanzer]

I was just being a wise guy - we'd better get back on topic or the mods will be upset.

[Capt. Charlie]

The answer is quite simple actually... What used to be commonplace no longer is. What is not commonplace is viewed/deemed to be somewhat anti-social or even deviant behavior.

Sad but true, Al. Back in the mid-60's and I was in my late teens, I didn't have a car. The only place to shoot was way too far to walk, so we simply got on a public bus with our .22 revolvers riding in OC holsters, rode to the city limits, and walked the other half mile to where we could safely shoot.

Few gave us a second look, and those that did, simply asked what we were carrying. Today, there are very few that wouldn't totally freak out .

I was just being a wise guy - we'd better get back on topic or the mods will be upset.

I still smoke, Tanzer, so I don't get upset .

[Al Norris]

I remember those days well. I was living in Long Beach, CA. at the time and had to ride my bike 11 miles to Pasadena to shoot. Or if my buddy in Van Nuys could go out, I'd take the RTD to his house. Then we would walk a mile or so, out to Sherman Oaks and shoot there.

No one ever gave us a second glance.

[JohnKSa]

OC people dont go pushing there views down anyones throats. were just trying to educate people on the fact that, it is a lot more comfortable then cc, and is faster to draw from and is a visable deterent to crime.

I seriously doubt that there is anyone who CCs who doesn't already know all these things. But if there is, I think that educating them is going to be very difficult...

Yea, there are instances of oc citizens getting robbed, i never said there wasnt.

Actually, you said "All you anti OC people out there, please post links and cites of CITIZENS not leos but citzens, being target number one or shot first becuase they open carried." I gave you a cite showing a guy who was robbed for his OC gun. He shouldn't count because they just held something to his head instead of shooting him? He was targeted because he was open carrying and just got lucky that they bluffed him instead of shooting him.

The bottom line is that it is WELL KNOWN that criminals consider firearms a highly desirable item and are willing to risk encountering armed persons to acquire them. Matix and Platt (the notorious Miami Shootout robbers) did this at remote ranges, it's not uncommonly done in gun shops, and I provided another instance.

You mention gun stores, and i think they are a special circumstance. The robbers know they will be armed, and usualy there is more then 2-3robbers instead of the 1-2 robbers normaly seen on other crimes.

The ONLY possible reason I can think of for this objection is that it is highly injurious to your claim that robbers are automatically deterred by OC. Clearly robbers would know an OC'er is armed and the instance I provided shows that 2 guys can pull it off against an OC'er--and without even resorting to gunplay.

Same with oc citizens, they just get comfortable, and relax there guard and thats when stuff happens, which is probably the case in your cited example, he was just not paying attention.

Paying attention helps, CC'ing would have been even more helpful in his case.

I see that you (at least tacitly) agree that an OC'er can become a target simply BY OC'ing.

you countered one of my arguments, saying some guns do have adaquate caliber and capacity

Some do, some don't. Some people CC full-sized guns, some people OC compact guns. My main point was that saying "some" CC guns were (insert any characteristic here) wasn't really all that meaningful since it's easily countered by saying that obviously some aren't.

This also applys to our rights with regards to carry methods. I support the right of people to oc and cc, as i hope the cc'ers support my right to oc and cc.(even tho you dont agree, any carry is better then no carry at all)

I've already said that I think it should be legal, and have explicitly posted at other times on this forum that I believe in the right to OC.

I think that in general it's not a good tactic, both from a PR/gun rights standpoint and also from a self defense standpoint but it does have its place.

[Axion]

IMO open carrying is WAY too much of a "hey look at me" move and I just assume anyone who is open carrying is trying to look cool/tough. I mean why the hell would you want everyone to know you're carrying? All you're gonna do is make a lot of people uncomfortable and lose the element of surprise in a confrontation. If you want to look tough hit the gym, but keep that gun concealed.

[xnavy]

Since I live in Texas I don't have the right to OC unless on my own property, but if I had the choice I would OC some of the time. I too beleive it is a deterrent to crime.

Lets say bad guy is looking for an easy target and is trolling for a victim. Bad guy sees two individuals he needs to decide on one. One guy is OC while the other guy appears to be unarmed (not OCing). Common sense tells me that bad guy chooses the 50/50 may or may not be armed guy verses the guy who is definetly armed.

We can all make up scenarios to support our positions. Someone who OC's IMHO does not portray a weak and willing vicitm which we know the Bad Guys like to look for.

I just think that we need both choices.

[JohnKSa]

We can all make up scenarios to support our positions.

Except that I didn't make anything up. What I posted about really happened. They not only chose the OC guy, it's almost certain that they chose him BECAUSE he was OC'ing.

Someone who OC's IMHO does not portray a weak and willing vicitm which we know the Bad Guys like to look for.

Not all bad guys look for weak and willing victims. Some of them rob gun shops or hit OC'ers over the head for their pistols.

[gattsuru]

It takes little to conceal a weapon.

That's probably true. But it takes more than a little to conceal legally.

I'm in Ohio, right now. I've paid 150 USD for classes necessary for a CCW. I spent months finding a respectable place within reasonable driving distance that offered the needed class outside of work hours. I've watched as my name, home address, license plate, and gun ownership have been forever connected. I've been fingerprinted like a common criminal, and given a series of photographs just to find one that was considered acceptable. The local and adjacent county sheriff's offices remain open only within very limited hours, requiring me to take time off work. The licensing fee itself added another 55 dollars onto the list, and may later have more costs added on if the police feel like running an FBI check. At least, I'll be putting 205 dollars down, more than the price of a six-month membership at a nice range. This is, by the way, to carry a two hundred and fifty dollar gun.

And I haven't gotten the permit, yet, two weeks later. Under state law, it may take up to forty-five days. As I have neither the time, the money, the lawyers, or the inclination to piss off local police, however, they can realistically take as long as they want. Even when I get it, the fun isn't over.

I will have lost any chance in hell of a knock-included warrant. I am required to announce my carry status to any police officer and passengers at a traffic stop. Anyone borrowing my car, including coworkers or relatives, must be told to do the same.

Why am I paying through the nose, giving up some of my fourth amendment protections, and making things so difficult, just to get follow through on a 'privilege' that not only the Ohio Constitution and United States constitution, but also the Ohio Supreme Court, recognize and protect as a right?

Well, legally the places around here are just messy as hell without a permit. Legally speaking, if I go three hours north or three hours west, my choice is a CHL or a pepper spray key-ring. There is no lawful open carry in a vehicle without a permit. While Ohio's preemption law and Supreme Court cases make legal open carry regardless of county or city ordinances, I do not have the time, the money, the lawyers, or the inclination to prove it to the police. For that matter, I'd rather avoid being slammed into walls or provided several new nine millimeter holes.

Socially and privately, many gun shops ban open carry and only permit (announced) concealed carry. Other stores may only actually ban one or the other, but won't think about or recognize CCW while they might panic about open carry. CCW is also less likely to result in termination of employment than open carry near an antigun employer.
And, yes, open carry exposes your tactical choices a good deal more.

Note that it's not to avoid being seen as 'rude' or 'low class'. If that's what something recognized as gentlemanly by our nation's founding fathers is, I'll take the status willingly. It's not like I'm tactful and high class otherwise. It's not about compensation. A piece of paper won't add onto my manhood. It's not about 'mall ninja'. A nickeled Bersa in a MOB holster doesn't get less ridiculous or noobish when it's covered by a shirt. It's not about showing off, or playing vigilante, or any other goofy psychobabble. It's about dealing with a very hard choice in the best manner possible.

Trying to call it something "little", like putting on a coat or untucking a shirt, really ignores the other argument.

[xnavy]

Not all bad guys look for weak and willing victims. Some of them rob gun shops or hit OC'ers over the head for their pistols

Your point is the exception to the rule. Just because I used the term " Make up" doesn't mean that a crime isn't prevented somewhere everyday because someone chooses to OC. In fact I would say that my point has a very good chance of happening knowing what we know about bad guys, that the majority of the time they look for easy targets not individuals who will put up a fight.

OCing is not for everyone, just like Concealed Carry is not for everyone. We should have the option to choose what is best for us and our individual needs.

[Al Norris]

We've had these discussions before. This thread in particular. I posted my views here and most especially, here and here.

[mordis]

John, i may have not have been very clear with some of my posts, and that may be a source of our confusion. I didnt intend my gunstore argument as a last ditch offence intended to save my original argument, i honestly believe that anyone who robs them knows what there up against and prepares for it.

I came off like i always oc, which i dont, I also know when it is appropriate to cc, like when i go to church, or the bank, or one of my left winger families houses.

What it comes down to is that honestly the truth regarding oc is somewere in the middle. OC'ers and Cc'ers are both right and wrong in there stances.
OC'ers believe that oc is a great deterent to crime, when the truth is its probably less then 75% effective(my guess, i have no way to confirm this), becuase despite the visable deterent that would disswade criminals of lesser constitution, it wont hinder the hardened carreer criminals at all. CC'ers correctly say that there method hides it from view and gives them the ability to decide where and when and if they respond with a gun, that the slower draw speed is made up with the tactical advantage of the hidden gun. But there have been instances of people who have Concealed weapons, and needed them but were unable to draw them intime to save themselvs.

So ya, as i said, its a comprimise, and one needs to choose which comprimise that fit the given situation that he is packing for that day. The truth of the matter is lies in the middle, both are right and both are wrong. Either way, were all on the same side, and John despite our disagree ment, i still respect you as a poster here, your opinions and knowldge are valuable. I hope we can still be Internet friends(LOL)

[Mr. James]

Thank you, Mr. Norris - you expressed so much, and so much more eloquently, than I ever could. I believe we are in accord on this subject, and I will carry on (pun intended), even here in Northern Virginia.

[spacemanspiff]

At least 80% of people wouldn't even notice if a person has a gun openly visible on the hip or under the shoulder.
Occasionally I will OC just because I feel like it. Actually, on weekends, I tend to OC when I get off work from the bar and am going to the store or a diner. Course, I still have the cuffs, spray, flashlights all dangling from my belt, and am still wearing body armor. In fact, I prefer to holster up with the muzzle inside the right side of my vest about nipple level, since my belt is full of other toys and goodies.

[Wildalaska]

You mall ninja you

WildheylooksitsspiffAlaska TM

[ooreach]

Don't want to freak the grandma out at the store (or the cashier) and why advertise to any possible bun stealing opportunistic bad guy. Your showing yours but he might not be showing his and then when your back is to him...Concealed, always.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I don't want anyone stealing my bun when my back is to him.

1. OC may deter some predators. It might attract others. Clearly, if one want to take a gun away from an OC person, it is easy. Just draw and shoot him or her without announcement. It happens to police.

2. Some want to OC as a demonstration of rights. That's fine. Some are suspected of wanting to show off. That's not fine.

3. It should be legal and one should be aware of the pluses and minuses.

[Tanzer]

Answered:

Sad but true, Al. Back in the mid-60's and I was in my late teens, I didn't have a car. The only place to shoot was way too far to walk, so we simply got on a public bus with our .22 revolvers riding in OC holsters, rode to the city limits, and walked the other half mile to where we could safely shoot.

Few gave us a second look, and those that did, simply asked what we were carrying. Today, there are very few that wouldn't totally freak out .

Boy is that true,
JR high school, early 1970's - wood shop. I had a pellet pistol with a broken wooden stock. I brought the whole gun, not just the stock, into woodshop. The teacher helped me break it down, repair it, stain it and reassemble it. He even helped me re-knurl the grips. I walked down the corridor with it!
High school, Late '70's - Archery class in gym. I was allowed (may lightning strike me if I'm lying) to bring in my compound bow. That is, until it went through the target, split the tripod, then skipped off the running track into the grandstands. Then he let me bring in flu-flu arrows (big "parachute" feathers). Narely a second look.
I'm not saying the good old days were always good, but times were different. Kids weren't shooting other kids either. Well, we did make little pellets out of crayons and shoot them at each other, but we were just little brats.

A gun is no longer a common sight, especially in my state. Someone mentioned that region plays a role. After all my replies to this thred, I would still defend your right to OC, but if you came to visit me here in RI, I would STRONGLY suggest you cover it up. You'd NEVER pass a cop without being questioned, and EVERYONE would have a reaction. You could easily enough tell them to mind their own beeswax, but you'd get sick of saying it before the day was through.

[Stetson 33]

I always carry concealed.Why give up the advantage and why bring all that unwanted attention on you.That's not for me.

[Groundhog]

Concealed since I can't do open here. I would not do open unless I lived in some small town where it was common at any rate. In most big cities you just scare the poo out of the sheeple when you do that.

[WhiteFeather93]

Not to re-hash this argument but for my curiosities sake. I read a lot of "I don't OC but I support it." And "Back in the day OC was what everyone did."

Two questions:

How can you protect a right you don't exercise? That whole a right unexercised is a right lost. If your state's supreme court system brought up a bill to ban OC would you protest? And would you protest while concealing?

If everyone prefers to conceal how do you alleviate fears of the common man carrying to protect himself? Or in lamens terms, how can a society learn that guns are not to be feared and it is not uncooth for a man to carry a firearm for protection?

I by no means hope to ignite a blaze of fighting and mindless teeth nashing. And I know its a little off topic so feel free to delete if felt that this subject is better left alone.

[Al Norris]

Good questions WhiteFeather93.

How can you protect a right you don't exercise?

You can't protect it... I give you the right to drive, a corollary of the right to freely travel. All it took was for people to buy into a regulatory and taxation scheme by the States (that started as a means to regulate and tax commercial activity) for that right to disappear.

If everyone prefers to conceal how do you alleviate fears of the common man carrying to protect himself?

Again, you don't. Until or unless common folk become re-used to people carrying, they will continue to fear those who do carry. I would advance this a further step - that those who CC, are in fact helping to bring about complete the disarming of the people. I see this as becoming a more commonplace view with each passing day.