DA/SA help.

[arquebus357]

Now things are beginning to make sense.

If the striker fired pistol has no de-cocker but racking the slide does not fully cock the striker I guess you could consider that automatically de-cocked and it needs a double action trigger. I do think that's a stretch though.

[pblanc]

Originally Posted by arquebus357

Now things are beginning to make sense.

If the striker fired pistol has no de-cocker but racking the slide does not fully cock the striker I guess you could consider that automatically de-cocked and it needs a double action trigger. I do think that's a stretch though.

Yes that is pretty much it.

Although there are a few oddballs as Walt Sherrill mentioned, with the great majority of striker-fired pistols the slide cycling either partially or nearly completely tensions the striker. I say nearly completely, because most stock pistols whether hammer-fired or striker-fired have positive sear engagement angles as a safety measure. That means that when you pull the trigger to release the sear, the action will tension the striker or hammer just a tiny bit more before the hammer is released. This reduces the likelihood of the hammer dropping or striker releasing as a result of sear bounce.

Also, for the great majority of striker-fired pistols, if the striker is tensioned partially or completely, the only way to "decock" the striker is to pull the trigger. That is why you need to pull the trigger to release the striker tension before you can field strip a Glock. Also, after releasing the striker by pulling the trigger, either while dry firing or in the event of a light primer strike, the trigger does not reset. That is why the vast majority of striker-fired weapons have no second strike capability, even those with relatively longer trigger pulls that call themselves DAO like Kahr pistols. If you want to practice dry firing most striker-fired weapons, you must pull the slide back at least a little to reset the trigger.

[arquebus357]

Excellent explanation.. I guess a striker spring compresses much easier than a hammer spring.

Many thanks

[HighValleyRanch]

I just qualified yesterday for my carry renewal with my HKP2000sk, and out of twenty people, I was the only shooter with a DA/SA pistol!
But then again, I was shooting my LCR's snubby revolvers with more precision than the majority of the striker fire pistoleero's, LOL.
My love of revolvers led me to the change from striker to DA/SA platform. I think it's a purely personal decision, but for me, carrying AIWB, I feel much more relaxed and comfortable carry my DA/SA HK than my glocks. Regardless of the fact that they are both safe as long as your finger is off the trigger, for me it's realizing that I was much more comfortable carry my revolvers AIWB than my Glock so I switched over to a hammer fired platform. Your personal decision may vary from my, but that's why Todd Green help to develop the glock gadget pointed out in post #13.

But I will admit that it take a greater degree of training as the decocking and variation from DA to SA trigger has to be mastered. The P2000 series version 3 has the decocker on the rear of the slide and no safety. So it is a hammer drop decocking system. So in training it takes a little more memory to remember when to decock and then again transition from the two triggers.

It was surprising to me when one of the range officers (a good friend of mine and very excellent shooter) told me to sell that piece of junk DA/SA and get a better gun. Get a better gun than an H&K????
This might be a indication of the mindset of current trends, but then again he is more of a competiitive action shooter rather than SD minded, so the speed of a trigger system is more important to him.

[marine6680]

Excellent explanation.. I guess a striker spring compresses much easier than a hammer spring.

Not really... The reason a Glock can have a partial tension mechanism and relatively light 5-6lb pull, is because there is a spring that, in effect, helps you pull the trigger. The spring is stretched when the trigger is at rest, meaning its force is in the direction of trigger pull.

Without that spring, the pull increases a good deal.

The S&W SD line of pistols is a DAO striker system, and it has a very long and heavy pull.

[Doc Holliday 1950]

Boogie,

There are some of the finest members of this forum that will & can answer any question on arms.
Would you mind telling us what type of Pistol/revolver that you are inquiring about.???
Then the Forum can really give you the best info.

[Cosmodragoon]

I grew up on DA/SA so I might be biased. However, I think there is merit in it. See, I don't like manual safety controls. The way I see it is that in a life or death situation where seconds are too long and the adrenaline might be flowing, I want to worry about as few fiddly buttons, levers, or switches as possible. The smallest number is one: the trigger. Double action does build in a degree of safety not unlike a double-action revolver. Single action then kicks in and gives you lighter, easier follow-up shots with a trigger that might otherwise be too light for comfortable carry. All the while, I'm only really using the one control. Sure, complications could arise but that's true in any system. Even then, dropping back down to double action for a second strike may be the first step in troubleshooting and that's still using the one control.

As with double action revolvers, practice your DA shooting. Just as with most of those wheel guns, you can probably thumb-cock it for longer, trickier shots if you have time. In most cases where you actually have to defend your life in a hurry, your most important shot is likely to be in double action. Just spend time with it and you'll be fine.

[JC57]

I've got a couple of Bersa semi-autos which are DA/SA. I believe the OP bought a Bersa. I learned how to shoot on DA revolvers back in the 70s, and my first semi-auto was a S&W Model 59 from the same era, which was DA/SA, so I'm rather used to them.

I've owned an SA-only Colt 1911 Commander and a variety of striker fired semi-autos (Gen 1 Glock 17 in the 80s, and a couple of Gen 4s now).

Just like any firearm, you need to practice with it and get familiar with the manual of arms. If it's all you are used to, and you spend the time with it, it will become completely natural to you.

I do suggest practicing a number of 2, 3, and 4 shot drills starting with gun hammer down each time, to get used to the DA pull since that will be your first up from a draw, and you want to make sure that first shot hits. From then on, the next rounds are easy-mode.

The Bersa doesn't have an option to carry "cocked and locked." You can engage the decocker as a "safety" while the gun is hammer down, which blocks the firing pin and disconnects the trigger from the cocking mechanism, but if the gun is cocked, then moving the decocker to "safe" decocks the gun and drops the hammer safely (but still point it somewhere safe just in case).

There is proabably an advantage to having a gun where every trigger pull feels the same as the first, but if you practice with a DA/SA it's not that much of a trick to learn it and get used to it.

[arquebus357]

To be safe, I guess you should have handguns which pretty much all operate the same way.(Revolvers excepted) You could spend some time to familiarize yourself with your gun but we don't want to be accused of fondling our firearms do we.

Then again people seem to be a little fussy these days. Reading reviews for the Ruger American (yes, I have one) I came across one where the reviewer was upset about the trigger. It seems that the stupid trigger "safety" leaf can be depressed below the face of the trigger. This left the reviewer's little trigger fingie having to deal with the edges of the "safety" leaf pocket. "Oh the humanities"

[Skans]

My bottom line with DA/SA - I'm simply more comfortable carrying with one in the pipe and a DA trigger pull, but I like the ease of shooting SA for follow-up shots. Yes, I prefer DA/SA to SAO, DAO, or Glock-trigger.

[bamaranger]

My agency went with double/single SIG pistols in about 1995, and I carried a P220/.45 acp daily for about 20 yrs. SIG .40 and 9mm pistols were also authorized. I was involved with the transition training, and was instructor for my agency/district throughout my career. Here are some things I observed:

-overall, scores improved, and most all shooters shot better with the DA/SA pistols as opposed to the DA revolvers used previously. I attributed this to the fact that marginal shooters did better with the lighter single action pull of the SIGS as opposed to all DA shooting with revolvers. Also, the .357 load used in the revolvers was just too much cartridge for some, and the step down to 9mm was benefical.

- the decock feature of the SIGS was a concern to folks were not "gun people" and sometimes even with those who were. Failing to decock when holstering, especially after shooting understress, was an issue. This was especially true with the old school revolver shooters, much accustomed to simply returning to holster w/o manipulating the pistol.

-I took my P220/.45 and duty rig into IDPA competition while I was still working. There I found the initial DA pull a disadvantage to other single stack .45 shooters, especially on a smaller demanding target, like a plate at 15 yds+, or a headshot. I had to consciously slow down to make a demanding shot at more than 10 yds or so with DA. Not a whole lot, but enough that I was slower than the SA only crowd. And if I missed DA, I was usually on target with the follow up SA shot. I found myself "shot cocking" on certain occassions.

-when I retired, I bought a Glock 34 and competed with it. My Glock 9mm scores in IDPA were generally superior to my SIG/.45 scores if I was shooting OK otherwise (I am succeptible to mental meltdown on long strings of fire, not good regardless of what you shoot).

- At one match, I broke out the SIG .45, cause I had ample ammo and little
9mm. I found the DA pull of the SIG a real challenge, but I had not shot the SIG in over a year. Previously, (trained up, and shooting only the SIG) I had never found the transition from DA to SA a real issue, but after a year of shooting the Glocks with their consistent intermediate trigger pull, I was way to heavy on trigger with the second shot with the SIG at that match and not scoring as well as I felt I should with second shots. Basically, I was out of practice with that pistol.

-I believe you can "train around" any of the argued shortcomings with the double/single pistol, though I am not a fan of the hammer dropping safety on some models, and favor hammer droppers instead.

[5whiskey]

DA/SA designs are fading in popularity quickly. I haven't seen anyone in LE carry one in years. Many DA/SA guns once popular are no longer in production and I don't see them making a comeback.

Don't tell this to Sig. Their LEO sales are second only to Glock, and that is thanks to their p series da/sa firearms. I read a source recently that claims they're actually cutting into glocks market share. I don't know if its reliable, but I can say my agency recently purchased SIG p227s. We were trading in p220s with 14 years on them (twice your average life of LEO pistols). From what SIG gave us on trade-in, and the price they gave us on the p227s, switching to Glock would have saved us nothing. Knowing this, I can believe their picking up more LEO contracts.

Da/Sa takes some getting used to. You must train to it. I learned to shoot pistols on the platform via beretta 92s, so I guess its no big deal to me. That being said, though, you are doing yourself an injustice by discounting the platform. There's almost nothing like a cajunized CZ p01

[dgludwig]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the DA/SA pistols just the way they are.If you can't shoot one well you need more practice.

I agree with this statement completely. It might take a little more training and practice for some people to become equally proficient with a DA/SA system when compared to other action configurations, but I've long believed that way too much emphasis has been put on the supposedly insurmountably difficult transition from the da first shot to subsequent sa shots.

I concede that my training with Smith & Wesson "third generation" da/sa pistols over a couple of decades before retiring may contribute to a bias in my opinion, but I'll be sticking with traditional da pistols to save my hide if things ever come to that.

[doofus47]

I prefer DA/SA pistols. I carry a Walther p99cAS and I carry a service p99AS when in the woods. I prefer the longer first trigger pull, I prefer the very quick reset and smooth pull of subsequent shots.
I have had SA, DAO and hammer-fired DA/SA pistols previously. I have two pistols that are striker-fired pre-set only, or "Glock-like", if you prefer. I like those for being so thin but nothing makes shooting easier than the SA trigger and the DA makes it more safe, although good handling procedures are your safest bet for not having issues with negligent discharges.
Just offering one opinion.
Happy shooting.

[OldMarksman]

I became DA/SA fan more than half a century ago. I was intrigued with the P38, and Elmer Keith was very high on the S&W Model 39.

Part of his reason was the way it pointed, but he thought that it was inherently much safer than the 1911 (but that's another story).

I bought one in 1964. The fact that it would not function reliably with JHP ammunition, together with the fact that parts that broke could not be replaced, caused me to sell it. I had not been aware of the reliability problems that the ISP had had with theirs.

I shot it at the range, and I kept it in the bedroom, but I never carried it, and I never trained with it.

After taking some good defensive pistol training, I decided that for me the long DA first pull, followed by the shorter, lighter SA pull would be far from ideal in what Rob Pincus calls a "dynamic critical incident".

But the safety of the mode of operations is obvious. If one can consistently draw and fire, say, four shots into the area of the upper chest of a moving target at ten feet or so in a second or a second and a half, it would serve well.

It's not for me, though.

[TunnelRat]

Two weeks ago I did a reflexive shooting class. There were people there with DA/SA pistols that did just that.


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[44 AMP]

Well, I read through the technical discussion about what parts do which and what to call them. Interesting, but I find my self asking, why it freakin' matters????

What I mean is, when it comes to shooting the gun, what matters is how the trigger works the way it does, not why the trigger works the way it does.

What the shooter feels when pulling the trigger is what matters, not how many parts, in what order and degree are activated by pulling the trigger.

it's not something most beginning shooters can relate to. They don't know, don't understand, and in many cases don't care about it. What they care about is what they can relate to, which is what the trigger feels like when being pulled.

SA,DA,SAO(?? why add "only" when SA means it does only one thing, to begin with?? dept of redundancy dept ???), DAO, DAK, ABC, and XYZ, or what ever letter group you pick, with all the differences in designs, it gets confusing.

Why not just name the pistol(s) being discussed? Particularly when the pistol under discussion doesn't seem to fall easily in any one traditional definition.

The DAK (Double Action Kellerman) was a SIG Sauer trigger mechanism that SIG now seems to be phasing out.

Perhaps they are phasing it out because they finally realized what a poor choice of name they picked for it. For me, and many of us DAK only means one thing...

Deutches Afrika Korp

When I heard SigSauer was marketing a DAK pistol, I expected it to have a palm tree with a swastika embossed on the grips!!!

I was rather disappointed...

This thread reminded me of a few other things, as well...

Jeff Cooper once said that the double action semiautomatic was an ingenious solution to a problem that didn't exist.

Mas Ayoob felt that a DA/SA pistol (Sig P220) was a superior police gun than an SA pistol (1911A1). And I can find no fault in his reasoning, which was, essentially, a soldier sees the enemy, and then shoots them. The SA semi auto (1911A1) works really well for this.

The POLICE officer often has to hold a suspect at gun point, under threat, but without shooting them. And, no matter how well you train your officers, Someone IS going to put their finger ON the trigger in that situation, and therefore, the long, heavy DA trigger pull is an additional safety feature, because it makes an accidental shot less likely.

This thread also reminded me that I am not a police officer, and my military days are decades behind me. SO, therefore, what is important to military and/or police use isn't all that important to me, because I'm not them, and I have different priorities.

I have several hammer fired SA semi autos. I have a couple of DA/SA hammer fired semi autos (P.38 and Sig P220). My striker fired pistols are P.08 Lugers. I've shot GLocks and others with different kinds of "DAO" triggers.

My personal opinion is that if you are going to die in a gunfight because of the all the extra time it takes to pull a longer heavier DA trigger, then you are going to die in a gunfight, no matter what kind of trigger you have.

[pblanc]

Well now, you can't really blame Mr. Kellerman for his last name.

Everyone knows Jeff Cooper hated DA/SA pistols and called them "crunchentickers". Hickok 45 feels pretty much the same.

Of course a lot of people do call guns like cowboy revolvers and model 1911s "single action" instead of "single action only". I think some people add the "only" simply to differentiate this type of trigger action from the single action mode of firing a double action revolver, or DA/SA pistol.

Here is another guy's take on the different trigger actions:

http://patheyman.com/choosing-handgu...ction-updated/

[Jim Watson]

So he bought the gun his coach said not to.
What is a "closed hammer?" Autocorrect in the wrong direction after he misspelled "cocked" perhaps.

Or he could study under E. Langdon who says "Fear Not the Double Action Shot."

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

What the shooter feels when pulling the trigger is what matters, not how many parts, in what order and degree are activated by pulling the trigger.

If you have a round that doesn't go bang and you're in a life-and-death situation, you can always rack the slide... but at the range you MIGHT choose to just pull the trigger a second time if the action allows it.

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

it's not something most beginning shooters can relate to. They don't know, don't understand, and in many cases don't care about it. What they care about is what they can relate to, which is what the trigger feels like when being pulled.

If the beginner is shopping for a first or new handgun, he or she might want to KNOW and understand the difference before the purchase.

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

SA,DA,SAO(?? why add "only" when SA means it does only one thing, to begin with?? dept of redundancy dept ???), DAO, DAK, ABC, and XYZ, or what ever letter group you pick, with all the differences in designs, it gets confusing.

Because they don't make DAO/SA or DA/SAO guns, but they do make DAO, SAO, and DA/SA and SAO guns? (We both know that nobody calls a SA as SAO gun, but we do see DAO guns identified by that longer acronym.)

How the trigger pull changes from the first and second shots is different between true SA guns and DA/SA guns. A beginning shooter might not understand the differences, at first.

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Why not just name the pistol(s) being discussed? Particularly when the pistol under discussion doesn't seem to fall easily in any one traditional definition.

Good point, but again, we don't seem to have a common way of naming or explaining the differences between some of the striker- and hammer-fired guns that require slide movement before the gun will fire. Some "beginning shooters" (and even folks who have been shooting for a while but who have experience with only one action type might want to know the functional differences if they're looking to buy a new handgun.

[scoobysnacker]

Originally Posted by pblanc

Yes that is pretty much it.

Although there are a few oddballs as Walt Sherrill mentioned, with the great majority of striker-fired pistols the slide cycling either partially or nearly completely tensions the striker. I say nearly completely, because most stock pistols whether hammer-fired or striker-fired have positive sear engagement angles as a safety measure. That means that when you pull the trigger to release the sear, the action will tension the striker or hammer just a tiny bit more before the hammer is released. This reduces the likelihood of the hammer dropping or striker releasing as a result of sear bounce.

Also, for the great majority of striker-fired pistols, if the striker is tensioned partially or completely, the only way to "decock" the striker is to pull the trigger. That is why you need to pull the trigger to release the striker tension before you can field strip a Glock. Also, after releasing the striker by pulling the trigger, either while dry firing or in the event of a light primer strike, the trigger does not reset. That is why the vast majority of striker-fired weapons have no second strike capability, even those with relatively longer trigger pulls that call themselves DAO like Kahr pistols. If you want to practice dry firing most striker-fired weapons, you must pull the slide back at least a little to reset the trigger.

Sort of on-subject question here...

The old Savage 1907 pistol is a striker-fired pistol, with a hammer-like "cocked" indicator. When you rack the slide, it looks for all the world like a hammer is cocked. Based on my understanding of the setup, the "hammer" is merely an indication that the striker is cocked, and doesn't actually impart any force to the firing pin, just moves in conjunction with it.
When dry-firing, it seems possible to lower the hammer down, or "decock". You hold the hammer back, pull the trigger, and gently lower the hammer.

Would this be possible with the 1907, to decock? I haven't actually tested it, because if the striker were to still fire, I would have my thumb directly behind the slide when the gun fired, something I don't want to do . Even with "just" a .32 acp, that would bang the heck out of my thumb.

[Jim Watson]

I think if you decock the Savage it will rest the striker on the primer.
Don't do it.

[scoobysnacker]

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

I think if you decock the Savage it will rest the striker on the primer.
Don't do it.

ok thanks.

I understand it would not be a safe way to carry, was actually curious if it would physically control the striker, and prevent immediate discharge... or if the striker would still fire.

[marine6680]

what matters is how the trigger works the way it does, not why the trigger works the way it does.

How and Why are inextricably linked... They dictate each other.

You can ignore the mechanics and get by... But I believe that to be a truly good shooter, one needs to have at least some knowledge of the mechanics.

And while someone fairly ignorant of how a gun works, can use it, and a new shooter, with limited knowledge, can pick a gun at the store and do fine...

To be an informed owner and purchaser, knowing how something works, or at least understand the differences in functionality between models, on at least a rudimentary level, is important.

[44 AMP]

To be an informed owner and purchaser, knowing how something works, or at least understand the differences in functionality between models, on at least a rudimentary level, is important.

I won't disagree, but discussion of whether the striker is cocked, or only partially cocked, and similar technical minutiae is beyond a rudimentary level.

Millions of drivers can't tell you how a fuel injection system works, or how it's different from a carburetor. and, they don't need to, in order to drive their car.

It makes no difference to them what the valve body in their automatic transmission does, or how it does it. All they need to know is they put the lever in "D", the car goes forward. Put it in park, and the "safety" is on...(kind of)

Discussions about what term is properly applied to which system because of which parts do what, when, is a technical matter. And that's FINE. But it doesn't help a beginner much, if at all, and may only confuse them.