Serial numbers

[Doc Hoy]

Folks,

There is a lot of information about Colt serial numbers. But Colt pistols represents only a small percentage of the BP revolvers in use.

I look at the various serial numbers on the Italian pistols (oops....Belgian too) and they mean nothing. I have begun to accumulate a small supply of individual parts which I am assuming originated in pistols which were disassembled and spread to the four winds.

When you examine the various serial numbers you can see that they have a different character and I assume this is because different manufacturers put their serial numbers on the pistols in different ways.

In some pistols, the numbers line up nicely, while in others they appear to have been carelessly stamped using individual number punches by a worker who appears to have been under some time pressure.

On my Belgian and on my Colts, the stampings are relatively consistent in their depth. The punches that were used appear to have flat ridges rather than "Vee" shaped ridges. The size of the punches appear to be different from one manufacturer to another. And of course the serial numbers don't reveal a pattern or sequence in the small number of pistols I have.

I am not certain why I think this is important. But I can tell you that the issue came to a head when I was examining a Colt style frame last night. I got this frame separately and wondered who the original manufacturer was. I examined the serial number as a way of finding out. I figured I would compare it with other frames in pistol for whom the manufacturer is known to me.

It would be nice to know the serial number ranges of pistols manufactured overseas in the last 30 or 35 years. It would also be nice to be able to identify a manufacturer not only by the value of the serial number but by the characteristics of the numbering operation.

I know this is a tall order but my guess is that the info is out there somewhere.

Any thoughts?

[mykeal]

I know of no resource that contains the information you seek.

Further, it's unlikely that people will provide serial number data on guns they own. One very interesting characteristic of the internet community of gun owners is that they keep such information very closely held. I've heard two reasons for this, one that they fear the government is secretly tracking who has what, and the other that they fear they may have a stolen gun and someone will recognize the number and take action to take the gun away from them. I have no information or belief that either position is reasonable, that's just what I've heard.

Anyway, I fear you are going to be frustrated in your search.

[Hawg]

I fear you are going to be frustrated in your search.

Likewise

[Doc Hoy]

Thanks for the insight. I think I will post some observations on the forum just in case someone might be interested.

I admit this will be just a snapshot and many simply won't care, but as you well know, that never stopped me before.

I do acknowledge the reluctance of individuals to reveal what they perceive to be sensitive information. I suppose I am too.

More later.

[madcratebuilder]

I do acknowledge the reluctance of individuals to reveal what they perceive to be sensitive information. I suppose I am too.

I have read several threads about posting of serial numbers. Many people are reluctant to post a full number thinking a unscrupulous person may use that number for a stolen gun report and their gun end up on the stolen list. Personally I don't care, I have a data base on my guns with photo ID.

A data base of Italian gun serial numbers would be a huge undertaking. Anyone have any idea of the number of Italian guns imported to the USA? Millions??

There is a huge variation in font style and location within the same manufacturer depending on year of manufacture. 2nd and 3rd gen Colts and the Centaure are consistent, but even they have minor font changes.

[Doc Hoy]

MCB,

I do agree that the undertaking would be huge. I have no intention of making that my life's work.

It sure would be nice if there were some consistency in the way European manufacturers serialized the weapons.

I lived in Italy for about a year and while I have a great respect and high regard for the nation and the people, there is a seat-of-the-pants mentality that prevails in a lot of what I saw.

I visited again last year.....Nothing has changed.

[Fingers McGee]

Serial numbers and serial number ranges used as an indication of when an Italian repo was made is pretty much and exercise in futility. I've got Ubertis made in 1991 and 2007 that all have a SN prefix of A, and 2001 models with a prefix of X.

All Italian repos have a date code stamped on them that translates to a date of manufacture and makes tracking serial numbers kinda pointless.

IINM, The Centaures can be tracked by SN as can the 2nd Gen Colts. Sig Series Colts are another matter all together - I don't believe anyone even knows how many of them were made, much less when.

FM

[arcticap]

One would think that the major manufacturers would have the serialization information recorded and stored.
And the proof houses should also have records of what they proofed.
That doesn't mean that either of them would ever release the information, but they could be asked.
If neither of them have already created a cumulative list then it could be an expense to put one together.
Maybe some maker could be convinced to sell the information.

[Doc Hoy]

I am not so much concerned about when the parts were made. More with who made them. It would be nice to be knowledgeable enough to be able to tell by looking at the way the serial number was applied to the pistol who made it.

In point of fact this really is a fools errand. Here is why.

When I was looking at the frame last night, I was thinking about using it to replace the one that I pulled the arbor out of during that chain fire deal a while back. It is hard to detect any difference in frames by looking at them externally. Some have bevelled edges on the bottom between the front of the trigger guard and the barrel lug. Others don't have this feature. The feature has no impact on fit or operation. Just some have it and some don't.

Anyway, I looked at my Sheriff's model (with the loose arbor) and the two frames seem to be very similar, but there is a big difference in the appearance of the serial number stamping. It just got me wondering if the nature of the serial number stamping, (size of the numbers, number of digits, type of punch, care taken to mark the pistol) could be used to identify the manufacturer.

I decided it probably could but what would be the point? Who would care?


So I figured I would just worry you guys to death about it.

Tnx,

[n5lyc]

Here is a list to decode the stampings on some pistols to find dates of manufacture.



Using Roman Numerials, starting with 1954 as 'X'.

X = 1954
XI = 1955
XII = 1956
XIII = 1957
XIV = 1958
XV = 1959
XVI = 1960
XVII = 1961
XVIII= 1962
XIX = 1963
XX = 1964
...continues without skipping until

XXVI = 1970

Then, for some reason not really explained, they switched to:
XX7 = 1971
XX8 = 1972
XX9 = 1973

Then back to:
XXX = 1974

Then it changes to a letter code. Should be simple, but they skipped various letters throughout the "A" code, then decided to skip OTHER letters through out the "B" code. Didn't want to make it too easy I guess.

AA=1975
AB=1976
AC=1977
AD=1978
AE=1979
AF=1980
AH=1981 (notice they skip AG)
AI=1982
AL=1983 (skipped AJ and AK)
AM=1984
AN=1985
AP=1986 (skipping AO)
AS=1987 (skiping AQ and AR)
AT=1988
AU=1989
AZ=1990 (skipping AV,AW,AX, and AY)

BA=1991
BB=1992
BC=1993
BD=1994
BF=1995 (skipping BE)
BH=1996 (skipping BG)
BI=1997
BL=1998 (skipping BJ and BK)
BM=1999
BN=2000
BP=2001 (skipping BO)
BS=2002
BT=2003
BU=2004
BV=2005
BW=2006
BX=2007
BY=2008 (Bought a Pietta 1860 new in dec. 08 with this code)

Do not know how the letter code continues...or why they selected the letters to skip.

There will be proof marks (usually two). One of them will be a PN marking...this is a black powder proof. Have had people show that to me and claim that their gun is nitro proofed (thinking PN is for Proof Nitro)..it is not...that's a black powder proof.

Will USUALLY be a maker's stamp...but not always. In the early years, was common to have whoever improrted the gun supply whatever stamps they wanted..Navy Arms, Replica Arms, Sile, CVA, etc. But it all boils down to a few makers. Common ones are: (aside from writting the company name out):

Pedersoli usually uses "DAP" or "dp".

Uberti usualy uses a "U" surroumded by an octogon outline...the octogon to represent a barrel outline.

Pietta Usually uses a "FAP" in a horizontal diamond outline.

Palmetto (who made a lot of Dixie Gun Works reproductions) uses a palm tree in a circle.

Armi San Palo uses a DGG..this is also found on EuroArms (as they are more or less the same maker now). OFten harde to figure out as they overlap the DGG.

Armi Sport will usually use a "AC" in a circle.


The Colt first and second generation guns were made in Italy as well...but only as rough parts, the fit and finish by Colt, so only Colt's marking are on the guns.

To add to the fustration, have run across black powder guns without any marks at all...some with Japanese symbols...and some with what is either Pakastani or Alien heiroglyphs.

------
The location of the marks changes over the years...and the good news is that the more recent Uberti guns (2004) are more subtle. Thee is also a tendency in newer guns to serial number mor5e parts..old Uberti's had one serial number (on the frame's bottom at the junction with the barrel)...now they have both the barrel and frame serial numbdered as well as the barrel wedge. The Born-on-date is stamped next to these serial numbers (smaller, but still following the pattern of letter codes).

[robhof]

Thanks for the great info, I recently bought a pietta remington pocket that was new old stock. Thanks to the chart I now know it was actually made in 1990.

[madcratebuilder]

Sig Series Colts are another matter all together - I don't believe anyone even knows how many of them were made, much less when.

CBAC planned on 2500 units per model, most models did not come close to that figure with the exception of the Walker and some of the Dragoons. 3rd gen serial numbers generally began where the 2nd gens ended. The 3rd gens with no 2nd gen counterpart started approximately where the 1st gens stopped. Special editions had there own set of #'s.

The 51's and 60's where made from 94-02, most others ran 96-02 or 98-02.

The Colt first and second generation guns were made in Italy as well...but only as rough parts,

Uberti supplied rough barrels, cylinders and in some cases grip frames. Frames and small parts came from in-house or USA venders.

The location of the marks changes over the years...and the good news is that the more recent Uberti guns (2004) are more subtle. Thee is also a tendency in newer guns to serial number mor5e parts..old Uberti's had one serial number (on the frame's bottom at the junction with the barrel)...now they have both the barrel and frame serial numbdered as well as the barrel wedge.

Uberti has really improved the looks of their revolvers by a more discreet marking. ASM is also good about marking the under side of the barrel and frame and not turning the revolver into a bill board.

[mykeal]

I have a slightly different set of date codes, especially with respect to the early 21st century dates:

I'd like to see a picture of that 'BY' code if you can publish it.
My Cimarron (Uberti) 1862 Pocket Navy has a BZ for 2005, the year it was purchased new (it is a little faint, but it's clearly NOT a BV):

My 1861 Colt Navy, bought in 2006, has a CA stamp:

My Uberti 1847 Walker has a CB:

as does my Lyman (Investarms) GP Rifle:

both were purchased new in 2007.

[madcratebuilder]

I have the same chart as mykeal.
CA 2006
CB 2007
CC 2008
CD 2009

The few newer revolvers I have are marked in with the "C" series from 2006 and newer.

[Fingers McGee]

I have the same chart as mykeal.
CA 2006
CB 2007
CC 2008
CD 2009

The few newer revolvers I have are marked in with the "C" series from 2006 and newer.

+1 My new (arrived in country in July 09) MWNN '51` Navies have a CD date code

FM

[n5lyc]

Sorry for my out dated info, i copied it from another site that has it as a sticky.
i traded the brass frame 1860 to a friend 2 weeks ago, but i asked him to send me a closeup of the date stamp.

you sure know how to make a guy feel welcome here.
i tried to give a little helpful info that was somewhat incorrect, and you pound my balls flat with a hammer.

thanks alot.
Ian

[Smokin_Gun]

Welcome to the Club Ian, ain't nothin' I don't get heard myself in forums most times :O)
Now you're a Veteran Forum Talker/Walker ... enjoy have some fun.
SG

[mykeal]

n5lyc -

Apologies for any slight. It was not intentional. I had different information and felt it was important to point that out. One of us is incorrect; I'd like to know if it was me. I don't believe my post was offensive, but again, I apologize if you felt it was.

In the mean time, I would really like to know if there's an error in my database.

[Hawg]

In the mean time, I would really like to know if there's an error in my database.

It checks out with the guns I've had to the best of my knowledge. I've been going by the same data for a few years now and never been called on anything.

[n5lyc]

I wish i could get new guns all the time,

i have only gotten 3 (NEW) black powder guns in my whole life, and 1 was my first 1858 remmy in 1975 as a christmas present, 2 was a wedding gift from my brother in 1995 a cabelas target remmy, and the 1860 in question of the dates.

I have owned dozens, but they were used, just (New to me).

i tend to buy other luxury items, like food, or medicines..

Ian

[madcratebuilder]

Ian, welcome to the forum, flat balls and all. It's just life at the firing line. If anyone of the members here inadvertently posts incorrect info, it well be corrected. It's happened to almost all of us at one time or another. It's how we all learn.
Lot of members here have been collecting black powder rifles and revolvers for many years. Hundreds of years of combined experience.