Federal case reload 308 hard to close bolt

[Reloadron]

HiBC, you know I never gave it much thought till you mentioned it, so on a lighter side and sadly not gun related:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4TVDSWuR5E

Then after the cans are made and printed they are shipped where the rest of the story happens:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1fyfYa1MiE

OK, finally bullets but I thought the cans were pretty cool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hkr1NS7bEUU

HiBC, thanks for a seriously very good post which I saw as right on target.

Ron

[std7mag]

HiBC,
I think i'm following you.
I was brain farting, thinking of the case and die as a sealed unit.
I didn't even think of flow upwards.
Much like me forming 6.5mm Rem Mag from 7mm Rem Mag casings. (annealing is your friend there!)

[F. Guffey]

I didn't even think of flow upwards.

After all of these years; there was a time I would ask if it is stretch and or flow or is it both? And I insist it is impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has case body support.

HiBC, thanks for a seriously very good post which I saw as right on target.

No fewer than 10 years ago reloaders were insisting the Wilson case gage was a drop in gage. And then there was the Digital Head space gage. the brain trust did not recognize it as a Dial Indicator stand and the rest failed to recognize it as being a comparator at bets.

The point? You failed to have enough experience and knowledge to recognize a post that is on target. From the beginning Wilson gave reloaders more credit than they earned. Wilson suggested reloaders use a straight edge, to make it easy on reloaders in the beginning Wilson identified a straight edge as 'the pocket rule' carried by most individuals with shop skills. Years later I suggested reloaders become familiar with the feeler gage.

I knew I was crowding them but I also suggested they use a flat surface and I snuck in the lay-out/set-up table as being a flat surface.. I have never failed to identify the Wilson case gage as being a datum based tool. Reloaders have not included 'datum' in their vocabulary beyond being a line until recently; I am wondering which one of you is going to start claiming that?

I can not say anything flattering about HiBC because he can not explain how he moves the shoulder back with a die that has case body support. I can not be more honest. I find it impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has case body support.

And then there is body bump and shoulder bump dies. That nonsense broke out on another forum; as I asked, "How do you do that?" I called Redding and asked about there bump, body bump dies and I asked them how they did that because I found it impossible" and then I explained why. The man of the phone replied; "I know that and you know that etc. etc. etc."

And then there are bushing dies, reloaders were going goo bobble and glick over those; they could not handle it because I said I have been sizing cases without sizing the necks for years. I guess in a few years one of the brain trust will go back and invent the die before the bushing die.

F. Guffey

[Jsnake711]

Just an update, resizing this batch of brass has corrected the problem.

[Reloadron]

Well go figure, a happy ending.

Ron

[F. Guffey]

And is it safe or should i pull them and run them through the sizing die and then reload them. Just looking for some advice.

If I chamber a round and then find the bolt is difficult to close I determine the cause. If it happens to someone else I have to wonder why they did not find the problem before they closed the bolt on the loaded round.

I do not believe there is an excuse for a reloader not being able to determine the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face and I do not believe there is a good excuse for a reloader not to be able to determine the seating die has too much crimp.

A reminder: The sizing die has case body support, the bullet seating die dies not have case body support meaning the reloader can bulge the case at the case body/shoulder juncture when the bullet is locked/crimped to the neck if the neck is lowered whole crimping.

It was Lyman that said crimping can be a bad habit; Lyman said crimping can reduce bullet hold. All of that was before tension was invented.

F. Guffey

So: Why is it impossible for a reloader to determine the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face before they find out a size case will not allow the bolt to close?

[F. Guffey]

And is it safe or should i pull them and run them through the sizing die and then reload them. Just looking for some advice.

If the neck of the case is too long for the chamber the neck can not expand to release the bullet. Me? I want the running start, I want my bullets to have that 'jump'.

F. Guffey

[LineStretcher]

After all of these years; there was a time I would ask if it is stretch and or flow or is it both? And I insist it is impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has case body support.

There are two common types of rifle caliber dies. Neck sizing which only sizes the neck for the sole purpose of ensuring proper neck tension and full length which size the neck and shoulder to return them to SAMMI spec's.

When brass is annealed it is only done from slightly below the shoulder to the neck. You do not want annealed brass anywhere near the head or you invite case/head separation.

When the round is fired in the chamber it becomes fire formed and if properly annealed the brass will spring back after firing approximately .001 allowing for removal from the chamber. Because it is expanding during firing the case will shrink in length. If you wisely trimmed your cases to trim length before reloading then it will be shorter after firing.

Since the body and head of the case is not annealed other than at the factory, the brass pushes upward when doing any type of sizing. it's far less with neck sizing than it is with full length neck and shoulder sizing. In other words, case length shrinks when firing and grows when re-sizing which is why they make case trimmers.

Still, some brass does get pushed back towards the head. After many neck sizing's it may appear as a doughnut at the base of the neck. It's an indicator that a full resize is in order.

My preference is to neck size and full length resize until the case grows to max case length from recommended trim length or If at anytime I notice a bright ring near the head. At either point I discard the brass.

[F. Guffey]

Still, some brass does get pushed back towards the head. After many neck sizing's it may appear as a doughnut at the base of the neck. It's an indicator that a full resize is in order.

Linestretcher, (forgive) I would be hard pressed to find a reloader on this forum that understands what you just posted and then there is the scary part, those are the ones that believe you.

I said I have chambers that will never cause a donut. I said I have chambers that, by design create/cause donuts and I said I form cases that form donuts in the forming/sizing process. I said I form a few wildcat cases that form a donut that completely closes the closes the neck before finished.

I understand that is a mind boggling thing but for me I have to get started early on those cases; I have to start removing the donut whole there is room in the neck to run a reamer and or drill bit through it.

Try it? Take a 30/06 case down to a 22/6MM Remington wildcat improved.

F. Guffey

[RC20]

Yep

Thank you for coming back and letting us know.

It allows people to sort out who understands the issues , who makes good responses and those who do not.

Even if I am a head space heretic

[Unclenick]

Originally Posted by Jsnake711

resizing this batch of brass has corrected the problem.

This is why:

Originally Posted by Jsnake711

...ram all the way up, screw die in till it touches the shell holder and lock it down.

As I expect you have discovered, the the force needed to resize a rifle case is enough to stretch the press a little, and the die has to be turned in enough additional distance to compensate for that stretch. The classic way to tell is to lube a case and run the press ram up to its peak height and then look horizontally across the junction of the die mouth and shell holder to see if there is a crack of light between the two. Assuming there is, you then lower the ram and turn the die in down until a case run up into it no longer creates that gap. You need to recheck with the next several cases, as the previous partially resized one will have taken less sizing effort on the second pass than it did on the first try. You don't fix the lock ring position on the die until that stretch compensation is accomplished for all the cases you are running through. The die instruction to turn in and additional eighth or quarter turn (or more with aluminum presses) is supposed to get you safely past that point, though it does stretch the press a little more than necessary. Most are built to handle it.

Some of the cam-over press designs had enough ram rise when backing up from the full handle-forward position that the gap is gone after the initial die contact setup and while the ram is at the top of its stroke. Those don't always need the additional turning-in of the die. Those with handle stops before the ram passes its highest point of travel will always require at least a little of it.

Once the die is set up, you will find running brass through it a second time will typically reduce the head-to-shoulder length another thousandth or two. It's useful to know that if you get a few cases that are just a little larger and more springy than others.

[mehavey]

Head Space Grand Inquisitor: One who enforces religious "Cases have no Headspace" dogma
Head Space Heretic: One who knows that cases -- nevertheless -- have a headspace dimension




.

[Unclenick]

Naw. They have a headspace fill dimension. The difference between it and the chamber headspace (aka, cartridge headspace, as I was surprised to learn this year) is the excess headspace. In the case of a compressed fit, the latter is a negative number. See how simple it is?

[mehavey]

Why does this scene always come back at this point . . . ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcxKIJTb3Hg

[Jsnake711]

Lmao

[Reloadron]

Seriously funny stuff.

Ron

[BBarn]

Originally Posted by F. Guffey

I say it is impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has case body support.

I can shorten the length of the case from the shoulder of the case to the case head, again I insist I can not shorten the case from the shoulder to the case head by moving the shoulder back.

Semantics and terminology are clearly at play here. Mr. Guffey could explain what he is saying, but would seemingly rather repeat the same old statements. I don't understand why he doesn't simply explain how the "new" shoulder, that is closer to the case head, is formed.

Perhaps he thinks it's some sort of secret that as the case is full length sized, a small amount of case material is moved toward the mouth, with the a bit of the old body now forming the base of the new shoulder, and the base of the neck now containing a bit of the "old" shoulder. And as a result of that sizing process, the neck may have grown enough to need trimming.

Referring to this process as setting or bumping the shoulder back is harmless, especially considering the potentially harmful mistakes a reloader can make.

[RC20]

Referring to this process as setting or bumping the shoulder back is harmless, especially considering the potentially harmful mistakes a reloader can make.

Its good to have company on the rack! Care for a pedicure?

[F. Guffey]

Naw. They have a headspace fill dimension. The difference between it and the chamber headspace (aka, cartridge headspace, as I was surprised to learn this year) is the excess headspace. In the case of a compressed fit, the latter is a negative number. See how simple it is?

I off set the length of the chamber with the length of the case. Again, Wilson introduced the case gage 70+ years ago. They listed it as being a case gage. reloaders labeled the case gage being a drop-in gage. I always thought Wilson was brilliant. They designed the Wilson case gage as a datum based tool because they designed the Wilson case gage with a datum that has a radius that can be verified.

Sinclair/Hornady made a tool that has a datum with a radius and has to be verified with a head space gage. If not verified the Hornady tool can be used as a comparator, it has taken reloaders years to figure that one out.

F. Guffey

[mehavey]

Originally Posted by UncleNick

See how simple it is?

Muaaaaaaah-ah-ah

[LineStretcher]

Originally Posted by F. Guffey

Linestretcher, (forgive) I would be hard pressed to find a reloader on this forum that understands what you just posted and then there is the scary part, those are the ones that believe you.

I said I have chambers that will never cause a donut. I said I have chambers that, by design create/cause donuts and I said I form cases that form donuts in the forming/sizing process. I said I form a few wildcat cases that form a donut that completely closes the closes the neck before finished.

I understand that is a mind boggling thing but for me I have to get started early on those cases; I have to start removing the donut whole there is room in the neck to run a reamer and or drill bit through it.

Try it? Take a 30/06 case down to a 22/6MM Remington wildcat improved.

F. Guffey

The scary part is that you don't understand yet profess to be an expert. I'd hang it up if I were you, it's impossible to be the resident expert in all subjects guns and otherwise. Eventually you'll run out of Wikipedia articles to quote and cut and paste.

[Jsnake711]

What the heck is this donut thing

[RC20]

Something to do with sizing and squeezing the neck.

I have not seen it so it does not exist (up in flames I go) .

[F. Guffey]

What the heck is this donut thing

Jsake, I will assume you are asking a question; For years and years I have said there is a lot about the sequence of events that take place between pulling the trigger and the bullet traveling down the barrel.

Still, some brass does get pushed back towards the head. After many neck sizing's it may appear as a doughnut at the base of the neck. It's an indicator that a full resize is in order.

'The above quote is from Linestretcher'. Before that we had a reloader that claimed he did not understand 'that thing' about the shoulder. I said my shoulders do not move; I made it very clear the shoulder I start with is not the same shoulder I finish with. I said the shoulder I start with becomes part of the case body and the new shoulder is formed from part of the shoulder and neck.

Dearly beloveds; it was not my intension to lock up the entire claims department but if they can not keep up and or they do not have enough indignation I should not have to explain to them why they are members of the claims department.

Reloaders have a ruff time dealing with accepting the fact they have spent years and years thinking they can move the shoulder back and from some where they got a new work called 'bump', they had no ideal bump was a function of the press; the new phrase was "I bump' as in bump the shoulder back. And that is it, everything you ever wanted to know about sizing a case.
It is not easy to accept the fact the first sizing short cut they take is not correct. I say it is impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has full body support.

And now you ask about 'the donut'.

Semantics and terminology are clearly at play here.

And now the big copout. Reloaders in the claims department get into a bind and the only responses they can come up with is childish and immature. If the reloaders is not able to understand it is impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has full body support talking to them about donuts is a waste of time because sizing the case is a complete package.

F. Guffey

[Reloadron]

What the heck is this donut thing

While I do not have any good images of the effect a Google of "case donuts when resizing" will get some good images. This link affords a few pretty good images of the effect. Post #14 by Unclenick I believe covers it well with some good images. Seeing the effect of "the dreaded donut" is really not that common. I did read a little and a few claime that bushing dies do not run the full length of the case nech, shoulder finish to case mouth and when not setup correctly can cause the effect but while I see that as possible I have never personally experienced it.

I hope the link from an old forum thread helps you understand the term. The illustrations used by Unclenick are really very good and on target.

Ron