Stay out of it if it's not your fight

[ctdonath]

From time to time there are arguments over whether one should get involved when a third-party fight is going on. Some cite the imperative of saving lives, while others cite the imperative of saving one's own life.

I just learned a fellow Kali (Philipine stick-fighting) student was at a rave ("techno" dance event, 90's version of "peace & love & music") when a fight broke out. He watched as someone tried to break up the fight - and get fatally stabbed for the effort. The stabbing was even coordinated, with someone holding the victim.

Moral of the story: stay out of it unless you can't avoid it or it involves your own. You don't want to die for a stranger's fight sparked by an unknown reason.

BTW: while learning to survive fights, also learn first-aid. In this particular case, it was not obvious that the victim was bleeding from two major cuts, chest & arm. A "combat medicine" course might be in order for many of us.

[Doc Hudson]

I wish I could honestly say that the event you spoke of was a rare and unusual event. Truth is it is not. Some times it seems as if Casey Stengle was right when he said, "No Good deed goes Unpunished."

But our Society has fallen to the depths of modern life because people have not gotten involved. If more people got involved like you fellow student, perhaps he would not have been alone and out numbered when the people he tried to separate turned on him.

Perhaps if more people got involved, there would be fewer rapes, beatings, assaults, and robberies occuring in plain site of bystanders who don't even want to get involved enough to give a discription. Perhaps there would be fewer cops killed on the streets without a single hand raise to help them.

I can not say your advise is not reasonable, or even intelligent. But I will continue to become involved. If it costs me my life, so be it. It will not happen until God wills it. Not to offer you insult, or belittle you in any way, but I prefer to risk my life than to sacrifice my sense of duty to my fellow Man.

Maybe one day there will once again be a majority of people who share my feelings and not only will people behave in a more civilized manner, but criminals will once again be in fear for their lives.

Doc Hudson

[tuc22]

As a matter of pure personal safety, the best thing is to recognize and avoid the human propensity to even watch the fight and make your exit or retreat. It's like people driving down the freeway and seeing an accident in the opposite lanes where 95% of drivers have to look, sometimes the rubberneckers rear-end the car in front of them. Why? Because they lose awareness of their personal surroundings and the next thing you know, BOOM! Always remember to consider the fact that the environment has turned dangerous whenever there is a fight or unstable person about. Use this information to alert your senses and engage your intelligence to make decisions to get you out of danger.

[Arizona Fusilier]

While I can't necessarily agree with these exact circumstances (I'm not sure I've made up my mind), I will spare both of us Monday AM quarterbacking and state unequivocally; I agree wholeheartedly with your philosophy. If enough good men do the right thing enough times, we can make a difference.

[student2]

WWI was not our fight WWII was not our fight untill after pearl harbor, Korea, Vietnam, Samolia, I can go on but I think the point is made. Not all ended well and blood was shed.

Did you friend help after watching the stabbing? Did anyone help after watching the stabing? What does this say about them?

Do we accept this as a apart of living where we are?

How would you feel if a group of people decided that you did not fit in and decided to hurt you and averyone just stood and watched? It is not their fight.

I'm with you Doc. The criminals should be the ones who are afraid not the good samaritan.

student2

[ctdonath]

oops

[ctdonath]

I did phrase it a bit harshly, for a reason. Too many of us may tend toward the mindset of "seeing evil being wrought, I shall draw my Talisman 1911 and slay/intimidate the demon with it" without considering the full impact of you could die. Even a basic brawl can suddenly turn deadly for anyone intervening. It's hard explain to a loved one that you're dead because you tried to break up a barfight between two willing strangers. I'm not saying never get involved, I'm saying pick your fights VERY carefully - the consequences can be very high.

Remember: the Good Samaritan did his work after the muggers left.

[SB]

Hey, finally someone who agrees with me.

I guess I've been around one too many people who has the Superman Syndrome: Nearly invincible, and ready to take on evil-doers everywhere.

Of course, I've broken up fights before. I think it just really depends on the situation. For the most part though, I've never acted outside of what I felt was utterly necessary. Beyond that, people can do what they like. I'll just contact the proper authorities and let them take care of it.

[Jhp147]

I have worked one homicide where a 16 year old breaking up a fight wound up with a Buck 110 through his heart for the trouble. This happened at a dance, too. The two fighting were human trash, he was a good kid trying to do right. I have been involved with other circumstances as discussed. I don't think making a blanket do always help\don't ever help statement is possible, the circumstances are all too varied and variable. Helping is great, saving a life greater, but a live witness can be of more assistance than a "hero" who died without succeeding in accomplishing anything. Who is it in the "gun business" that talks about "the futile noble gesture (FNG)? That being said, perhaps the best thing to say is be as prepared as possible and as willing as possible to help when the circumstances arise and are right. I think that is what CT means by "picking your fight carefully."

[Spectre]

It is not my duty to "break up fights", but I'll be damned if I let someone-say, the woman who was beaten to death, surrounded by others, in NYC some years ago- just be killed nearby without intervention of any sort on my part. We must all follow right action as we understand it; I understand that life is terminal, so must follow my duty as I see it.

[Doc Hudson]

CT,

If I came across as some one with a Superman Complex, I apoloize. I'm just a fat old fart who is sick of hearing "I didn't want toget involved" as an excuse for a person allowing another person to be killed or injured without trying to stop the attack.

But you are right. We do have to pick our fights carefully, and be prepared or all eventualities, up to and including taking or laying down a life. Some fights are not worth either cost. We must make a judgment call on each individual case, and act according to our judgment.

Doc Hudson

[LASur5r]

CTDonath,
Hi, long time no post.
Unfortunately, in our formative years when we are sorting all of this stuff out, we do not have the wisdom of our later years.

Many had the bravado and the willingness of our training and not the experience, thus the wisdom. We had been taught in Christianity that we were to help our fellow man. Every year we heard the parable of the Good Samaritan...so how do you fight all of that teaching? You are taught that it is the right thing to do in Hawaii, we had many examples of when it was for the good of the community when we helped the ones that needed help while putting ourselves in harm's way.

Have we gone that far that we have kind of given up that sticking up for our fellow man?

Unfortunately, I have come to the conclusion that in our society in general....many of us have. The system has been crafted to destroy this wanting to get involve...now we can be sued for being a Good Samaritan, getting involved in a mutual combat situation can get you killed and sued where both parties can sue you. We as a society are slowly sliding.

Are we destined to behave like that time in New York where the girl was raped and beaten several times then finally murdered in the courtyard of an apartment complex and no one came to help or even called for help even though she begged for someone to call for help?.

Where I see a situation with mutual combat...I say let them have at it while I call the cavalry on my cell.
Someone in need? That's the tough one...I don't have a hard enough heart yet to not help.

Each man must come to his own conclusion...'nuff said.

[Karsten]

I am sorry for the loss of your friend and I am sure everyone here is as well.
Your friend did what he felt he was capable of doing and that was break up a fight. He felt that he was doing right in helping another and I, as well as countless others would jump in and do the same thing. Maybe armed in a diffent way, clothed different but the GG is Out there. I am sorry about your friend.

Karsten

[Edited by Karsten on 02-15-2001 at 03:13 AM]

[Steve Smith]

I look at this the same way I do the UN. I think a lot of us are concerned that the UN will begin telling us what to do in our own country, and "what if" they brought their own forces in to "control" an uprising of the people. The UN folks would catch more greif than the original recipient. The same has happened in Somalia and other countries...a country is fighting amongst itself, we the US comes in to "bring peace" and everyone teams up against us. They want us to leave them alone, because their fight is none of our business...


I say leave 'em alone.

[ctdonath]

I, as well as countless others would jump in and do the same thing.

My point was DON'T!

The basic brawl that you're tempted to break up consists of two roughly equal and generally willing combatants. DON'T GET INVOLVED except as an observant witness and as a first-aid provider after (even then, be careful). The combatants are bent on harming each other, and will harm others to achieve that goal - in this case, there may have even been a coordinated attack ("you hold him, I'll skewer him") on the well-intentioned victim.

[ctdonath]

Several here seem to be viewing two different situations as one. Don't confuse them - they are very different.

A brawl ("mutual combat" in NY law) involves generally willing participants of roughly equal ability.

A mugging involves an unwilling participant of inferior ability.

The Kitty Genovese case alluded to by several here is the latter. The dance-floor stabbing I referred to stemmed from the former. They are different situations, legally, morally and tactically.

If you see an incapable innocent being attacked, feel free to nobly protect the innocent - but realize that you might lose your own life, and know the impact on your loved ones.

Two guys beating on each other in a bar or dance floor are likely both willing - don't risk your life trying to stop two assailants from doing each other in.

Remember that the Good Samaritan cared for the victim AFTER the attack - not during.
Remember that Moses got in big trouble for breaking up a fight (and offing the primary offender in the process). (Exodus 2:11-15)

[The Observer]

student2:

I am touched with your posts, it made a man thinks high of himself. There are instances where it is not our own fight but we must meddle if needed by the circumstances like an act of helpfullness, savings one's life and citizen obligations to stop a crime. But then we must see to it that in some situations we have the ability to neutralize or stop the situation.

Recently, I have no part to a case but I involve myself acting as the guidance counselor or adviser and to the extent that I help financially and physically. I just wanted that the victim whom I know he is innocent can get justice.

"Not all the time we ignore things that are not our own fight." There were times we do charity and lend our hands.

[handgun357]

First you need to determine if both people fighting were willing participants, or if only one of them was trying to be the agressor.
I would not get involved if they both were willing participants.
At this point in my life I would not get involved anyway.
I have too much to lose and my family is counting on me to be there and provide for them. I have a wife, a 6 year old boy, and a 4 year old girl. I am not going to jeapardize their right to grow up with their father. When they are old enough and on their own, maybe my priorities will change.
I may sound selfish, but that is the way it is.
I had to grow up without my father around and I'll be damned if I will make my kids go through that.
I think that, when possible, we should help our fellow man.
But I don't feel that I have the right to gamble with the future of my kids, when it can be avoided.
My 2 cents............
Have a good day all............

[student2]

maby I over reacted to the original post. But I am getting sick of people saying it is not my buisness or I can not make a difference so why try. Yes I did get torqued reading the original post.

" fellow Kali ... student was at a rave ... when a fight broke out. He watched as someone tried to break up the fight - and get fatally stabbed for the effort. The stabbing was even coordinated, with someone holding the victim."

If I read this correctly he watched someone get killed and did nothing.

Then to top it off, the moral of the story:

"Moral of the story: stay out of it unless you can't avoid it or it involves your own. You don't want to die for a stranger's fight sparked by an unknown reason."

this means to me they fight you or your friends then its worth dying for but anyone else to Heck with them.

No, if I saw a fist fight between people that I don't know, I would not run in between them like some maniac. But I would hope that if I saw some one being stabbed to death I would have the gutts to hold back the arm of the attacker. Yes this is easy to say on the net and no I don't know exactly how I will react in real life. What kind of people have we become? By passivity you are agreeing with the attacker, He is saying I can beat or kill some one and it is accepted therefore OK. You in the society have also lost.

Your action may bring others into action or jar the focus of the attacker into realinzing what he is doing and where.

Now if you do not agree with me. you are welcome to watch stabbings, rapes, beating, etc. And you probably should not vote in any election or complain about the society where no one will help anyone, including you.

Student2

[SB]

I think we're trying to overanalyze the situation too much? I think our common sense should be sufficient as the situations presents itself. After all, different people with different values, mindset, and skill levels will react differently to similar situations.

The fight I broke up most recently was two teenagers in a mall. I didn't have time to figure out the details. All I knew at the time was that one of them slammed the other into a huge floor to ceiling glass. Now, looking back at it, perhaps the glass was durable enough to withstand the two slamming into it. I don't know. But at the time, all I could see was the glass shattering and cutting them to pieces, along with their "friends" and anyone else standing by. So, I jumped in.

Like I said before, I think it depends. As a policy, I believe in non-involvement. But if it's necessary....

[ctdonath]

student2-
Yes I did get torqued reading the original post. "fellow Kali ... student was at a rave ... when a fight broke out. He watched as someone tried to break up the fight - and get fatally stabbed for the effort. The stabbing was even coordinated, with someone holding the victim." If I read this correctly he watched someone get killed and did nothing.

The fatal attack was fast. There was no time for my friend to get involved. Stab-slash-done. Yes he tried to help the bleeding-and-in-shock victim.

this means to me they fight you or your friends then its worth dying for but anyone else to Heck with them.

One must evaluate whether it is worth dying for a stranger. Sometimes yes...often no.

No, if I saw a fist fight between people that I don't know, I would not run in between them like some maniac.

Well then you agree with my original point! THAT is what I was getting at: when two strangers engage in mutual combat, getting involved (i.e.: breaking it up) can get you killed, and that's just not worth it in this case.

But I would hope that if I saw some one being stabbed to death I would have the gutts to hold back the arm of the attacker.

Would you really? Would you know what to do? Can you hold back that arm without getting stabbed yourself? Could you have moved into position fast enough in this case? Have you studied knife fighting, particularly empty-hand (you) vs. knife (him)? In this case, the whole thing was over in at most five seconds.

What kind of people have we become?

That's what worries me and why I posted this thread: (very broadly speaking) we've become a bunch of armchair warriors, confidently declaring personal nobility, skill and indestructability when faced with poorly-described and poorly-understood situations, quick to declare righteous indignation at anyone who would not immediately be involved, save the innocent and vanquish the dragon.

I started this thread (apparently with inadequate wording) to point out that getting involved in someone else's fight can get you killed really quick for no good reason. Somebody had to explain to this kid's mother that he died trying to break up a fight between a couple unknown jerks - not exactly the noble end a mother would hope for (saving an innocent damsel in distress, maybe, but certainly not standing between two goblins mutually bent on harm).

Subsequent to having the victim bleed to death in his arms, my friend desired training in knife disarms. He watched how blindlingly fast a lethal blow was delivered - there was no time for a third party involvement, nor time to run away. Ultimately, only the victim had any opportunity to stop the assailant...and lacked the training necessary.

Student2, I highly recommend you take at least an introductory knife course. It's hard to comprehend how fast a knife can appear and the fight be terminally over, and how little time you have to act inbetween those points.

By passivity you are agreeing with the attacker,

NO I AM NOT. (For some people your point may be true.) I am instead agreeing that my relationship with my loved ones is more important than my relationship with a stranger who made a bad choice.

Your action may bring others into action or jar the focus of the attacker into realinzing what he is doing and where.

A grave falacy. When the weapons are out and in use, the time for reflective contemplation is past.

Now if you do not agree with me. you are welcome to watch stabbings, rapes, beating, etc. And you probably should not vote in any election or complain about the society where no one will help anyone, including you.

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[Spectre]

Carl, I think we're in agreement, here.

People fighting it out: let 'em "have at it." In fact, if I see a fight, I won't even call police, unless (perhaps) someone is getting fed bricks. OTOH, if I see an obvious victim, or witness an obvious mugging, I will intervene, unless I am with others I am charged with protecting.

On the subject of knife usage: it is good to understand how to use a knife lethally, so one knows where one is vulnerable. The whole point of employing a blade is as a force multiplier that should not be obvious until the threat is no longer threatening.