Scenario: Unarmed assailant advancing

cracked91 · July 28, 2011, 07:20 PM

This thought crossed my mind while at work today, and though I doubt this happens often in real life, what would you do?

Scenario : You are fishing off the shore at an isolated lake in the mountains, in the distance you see a man approaching you. You are openly carrying. He has no apparent weapons, and is walking rapidly, but not in a necessarily threatening manner. As he gets close to you, you turn to face him, and he continues approaching, closing in closer than 7 yards. You tell him to stop, he continues approaching, as if he did not hear you. You draw your weapon and point it at him while yelling at him to stop. He continues approaching.

There could be many, many variants of this scenario. This popped into my head when I thought about my girlfriend who will occasionally OC while we are hiking/fishing in the mountains. She is proficient with handguns, and has a solid head on her shoulders. She is not by any means weak, but could definitely be overpowered by a large male assailant. And I believe she, as well as I, could/would be stumped by the situation.

It seems that firing would be fairly shaky legal ground with no witnesses and the aggressor unarmed, while not firing could be fatal. Running could be a very serious gamble.

What would you do?

Buzzcook · July 28, 2011, 08:32 PM

Retreat if possible. If you honestly feel your life is threatened shoot.

Legally it's better to be wrongfully convicted of manslaughter then to be dead on a lake shore.

secret_agent_man · July 28, 2011, 08:34 PM

Put yourself in his shoes. He is a deaf mute, out walking. Some guy in front of him is waving his arms wildly and appears to be shouting. Suddenly, he pull a gun on the deaf mute. Knowing full well he can sell that to a jury and walk, the deaf mute aims raises his right arm and discharges a round from the Kel Tec P32 he always carries in the palm of his hand. The guy who hesitated is struck in his thorasic triangle and goes down immediately. The deaf mute has a cell phone and dials 911, but can't tell the operator anything. However, his call is documented and later used in court to show the deaf mute had compassion for his attacker. The "man with a gun" and wavy arms who was shouting in a threatening manner according to eyewitnesses bleeds out and dies before medical help arrives.

Ain't like a beach.

9mm · July 28, 2011, 08:36 PM

Pepper spray, toss can a side after spray is out, go for gun if suspect doesn't retreat. This way you wouldn't get charged with brandishing or something stupid, you used pepper spray to try to stop someone, and they kept coming at you and you had to fire.

Now if I had a taser, but not for $1000....

Edward429451 · July 28, 2011, 08:52 PM

Tasers are only 450 now, I've been looking at them lately. The civilian model shocks them for 30 seconds! There is a large grey area between I don't like that guy's attitude, and he's forcing me to shoot, that a Taser would seem to fill nicely.

45Gunner · July 28, 2011, 08:58 PM

Each and everyone has personal space and for each and everyone of us that space varies with our particular area of comfort.

If someone violates your personal space, you have two options: 1. retreat to retain your space, or 2. challenge the other person to leave your personal space.

Only you can analyze the situation that you have created as you are the one looking into the fictitious person's eyes. Suddenly you realize the person is a figment of your own imagination, can breathe easy, and go back to enjoying the fishing. But wait, is that fish swimming towards you with an open mouth? Do you hear music? Would you run from the water or take out your gun and shoot the fish that you were just trying to catch when in reality he is trying to catch you? Did you check for bears before you entered that area of the lake?

OHMYGOSH......they're all out to get you. Run, Forest....run.

teeroux · July 29, 2011, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Tasers are only 450 now, I've been looking at them lately. The civilian model shocks them for 30 seconds! There is a large grey area between I don't like that guy's attitude, and he's forcing me to shoot, that a Taser would seem to fill nicely.
__________________

Yeah they are nice I even recommended one time when someone didn't want to have a gun and when they work they are the best thing since sliced bread. They have there downfalls however. Taser inc. has took it upon themselves to make them more restrictive than firearms, they are more expensive than a decent concealable gun, and you only have one shot. If you ever fired a taser you know how difficult a good shot is to get, you have to take the path of two projectiles into account. Last but not least the cartidges do fail every once in a while. I have seen 2 failed deployments of an X26 because the lead wires birdnested upon firing. One more when one of the leads went in the person he straightend out for a second and his jeans pulled one out, and they can also be defeated by heavy clothing or someone holding a shirt, jacket, or other similar sheet of fabric in front of themselves.

IMHO I think they are best in use as a compliment to a firearm and not as a replacement.

Ringolevio · July 29, 2011, 12:14 AM

Move laterally off the line of his approach to you and see what happens.

Does he change his course to continue approaching you?

C0untZer0 · July 29, 2011, 12:40 AM

Officer Jared Reston's Taser failed, so he ended up engaging the suspect in hand to hand combat - and then got shot in the chin with a .45 that he wasn't aware that the suspect was carrying...

Reston sued the makers... Taser Corp? (I can't remember) But it is a case where a Taser, if it had worked, would probably have saved at least one person's life (the suspect who Jared shot in the head), and it would have saved Officer Reston a number of serious surgeries... not to mention that he still has a bullet in him left over from that gunfight.

cracked91 · July 29, 2011, 12:43 AM

Quote:

OHMYGOSH......they're all out to get you. Run, Forest....run.

I don't think you've ever had to deal with a giant nasty trout on PCP.

I am not talking about turning around and someone is walking past you. Etc. I am talking about a person whose attention is focused directly on you, closing space rapidly toward you, who ignores all commands to stop. The cause of this could be sinister intent, drug usage, mental retardation, etc.

The point being this person is approaching touching distance, refuses to stop, and you do not know why.

Im sure many of us have encountered the beggar types that make a beeline for you as soon as they see you walk out of the gas station. I am also sure you have heard of the robbery/mugging schemes that can be attached to that type of behavior. So why wouldn't it make sense that someone might try to employ a similar tactic in an isolated area where there is little to no chance of being seen or heard by a third party? Talk there way in close, or just get close while talking so you don't shoot them, then take you down?

It just seems like a good way to get within knifing/wrestling distance of someone with a gun with a low probability of getting shot. I realize it is very uncommon scenario, but I believe it is entirely possible.

Many people here claim that the primary reason they carry in the outdoors is for 2 legged threats. So how does a 2 legged threat deploy itself in the deep woods? Run toward you through the woods wearing a ski mask and carrying a machete?

I would not put it above true predatory criminals, such as rapists, serial killers/malicious murderers, etc, to employ such a ruse (such as pretending they can't hear you, talking loudly over you as they close space, etc) in order to get close enough to strike.

Pepper spray does sound like a fair option, and would probably look better in a court room if you did end up using your firearm.

TheNocturnus · July 29, 2011, 01:39 AM

Make eye contact with them, ask how they are doing and if you can help them with anything. Assuming you get no response just a dead stare, get ready. If they are still rapidly approaching my alarms would be going off. I would step out of the walking line of the individual and if they adjust course to get to you then something is definitely up.

If the individual gets within 7 yards and does not stop, you warn them what may happen (Stay back bud, for your own good sort of thing). If they still advance, draw and take aim, last warning. If they still advance with a gun pointed at them, they are either really dumb or up to some sinister plan... open fire then call the authorities.

Also, don't go out in the woods or any remote area by yourself. That's just asking for trouble.

MLeake · July 29, 2011, 02:36 AM

The lady and I watched National Geographic: Caught in the Wild last night.

One of the segments I found most interesting involved a dive tour off South Africa, where the divers were intentionally in the water with several Tiger sharks, to take pictures and video.

The sharks would swim toward the divers, but as long as the divers kept eye contact, and their calm, the sharks would turn away and circle.

One diver got nervous, and started back-pedaling and rising toward the surface when a large Tiger closed. That shark followed the diver. This only stopped when the diver realized he had changed the dynamic, and was displaying prey behavior. When the diver stopped swimming backwards and climbing, the shark finally turned away.

The point is, body language is something to which predators of all sorts pay heed. Use discretion, and avoid situations where possible, but do not act like prey or you are that much more likely to become prey.

Einar84 · July 29, 2011, 04:33 AM

If there are bears or other dangerous animals in your country carry a bear spray, can be useful also for a like this "just in case" situation with a 2 legged problem, and on the other hand you have always the gun too

zincwarrior · July 29, 2011, 06:16 AM

You better believe you are on fairly shaky legal ground. You just committed a felony. If you shoot you just committed murder.

zincwarrior · July 29, 2011, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Only you can analyze the situation that you have created as you are the one looking into the fictitious person's eyes. Suddenly you realize the person is a figment of your own imagination, can breathe easy, and go back to enjoying the fishing. But wait, is that fish swimming towards you with an open mouth? Do you hear music? Would you run from the water or take out your gun and shoot the fish that you were just trying to catch when in reality he is trying to catch you? Did you check for bears before you entered that area of the lake?

Those fish are tricksy they are. Per my grandad, the only appopriate response is massive retaliation in the form of old school cherry bombs. Plus your fishing is done in two minutes.

Mobuck · July 29, 2011, 07:21 AM

If the water is no more than knee deep, I'd go as far as to take a few steps into the water. No one, regardless of their mental, cognitive, or physical problems is likely to follow me into the water unless they intend to make contact. If the aggressor is bigger, younger, or appears stronger than me, I'm going to make some noise.

jhenry · July 29, 2011, 07:37 AM

You can use deadly force ONLY when the potential assailant has the means, opportunity and intent to cause death or great bodily harm. The scenario does not meet the standard. He may have the means if there is some disparity of force due to size but this is not mentioned. He does have the ability because of proximity. He has demonstrated no intent, none.

Skans · July 29, 2011, 07:56 AM

In that scenario, I'm not about to pull my gun out. Some guy out in the woods approaching you???? It's pretty unlikely he's going to try to rob or harm you. Maybe he's lost, looking for directions, needs help with something or just came upon you suddenly - all of these more likely than him wanting to harm you.

FWIW, I spend a good amount of time camping and hiking in the woods. I've come up upon folks unexpectedly - it just happens, and I often carry a pistol in the woods. I sure would hate to have someone think that I was threatening them in some manner, pull a gun and start taking shots at me. Personally, I've never come across anyone when I'm out in the woods who isn't out there enjoying nature, doing the same thing I am.

Glenn Bartley · July 29, 2011, 08:09 AM

Cracked91,

I strongly suggest, that before you ever go on a fishing trip or a hike or a camping trip, you take a course or three in armed self defense, including instruction on how to judge a situation and how to react properly before needing to draw and possibly fire your weapon. The scenario as described by you is very indicative that you are unaware of how to properly react and then act once such a situation may arise and that you do not even know what signs to look for that an attack may be imminent and therefore you would testify, in essence, against yourself if you ever went to trial and decided to take the stand. Just to have drawn your gun because someone walked up to within 21 feet of you, without you doing anything else to take precautions and to avoid trouble, except telling him to stop, is very telling that you are not knowledgeable enough about: self defense, the legality of when you may threaten someone with deadly force, what to do if you perceive a threat, what constitutes a potential threat, how to describe the threat, how to react to a threat, how to change reaction into action, and by extension - when you can use deadly force.

Sure, in the scenario as first described, you should have your hackles up but draw your gun? There were a lot of other things you could have and should have done had you been in a situation like that before drawing a firearm. Commanding someone to stop may be one of them, but why didn't the person in your made up scenario move to safety, move to put cover between himself and the other person, describe what else about the guy such as height, weight, actions such as avoiding eye contact but always watching your hands and your gun (before you drew), crouching a bit as walking as if stalking you, clenched fist or clenching and opening and clenching again, long steps, or short very determined steps, walking quietly even though the ground was littered with dry twigs and other debris, hands up in a ready to fight position as opposed to him with hands folded twiddling his thumbs, what he did when you moved (if you moved did he adjust to keep coming at you), what he did when you started to walk away faster (if you did walk away faster, did he speed up).

Your scenario is seemingly that of a scared person, a very scared person who thinks the gun is the answer to everything as you described. The fact is, as others have mentioned, there could be many reasons this guy was approaching you other than with nefarious intent. For you to think up such a situation and for you to allow the scenario to develop to the point that it did, without the person who felt endangered first having made numerous other observations and assessments and without that person having taken appropriate other actions before drawing, shows me that you are ill prepared to be in such a situation. That may sound harsh but the reality is based upon what you have told us and if that is truly the way you think, I believe you need to get a better education about being an armed citizen than you could do at this forum. I also base my assessment upon well over 30 years of carrying a firearm for self defense, several training courses I have taken, several articles I have read by experts in the field of firearms and self defense, several real life situations I have read about in the news, situations I have winessed first hand, situations that have arisen both on and off my job, having been in several situations wherein I realized I was in danger, having also been in situations where I realized I was not only in some type of possible danger but that I was about to be seriously harmed or possibly killed if I did not act properly, having been in several situations where I had to fight actually to protect myself - including using weapons to defend myself, and including once having to shoot someone. Based on all that and what I can assess of your mindset as evidenced by your scenario, and your follow-up post, I strongly recommend you take some good self defense with firearms courses, or that at least you read some good self defense with firearms books, ones that cover the basics of how to recognize danger, how to avoid it if possible, if not then how to react to it, whether or not you should go to your gun or something else first, how to act to take control of the situation legally and safely.

All the best,
Glenn B

Willie Lowman · July 29, 2011, 08:42 AM

I have been the mysterious approaching man in Cracked91's scenario. It was a little more like this...

Quote:

You are hunting deer in the hills of SE OH, in the distance you see a man approaching you. You are holding your compound bow/Remington 1100/whatever. He has no apparent weapons, and is walking rapidly, but not in a necessarily threatening manner. As he gets close to you, you turn to face him, and he continues approaching, closing in closer than 7 yards. You tell him to stop, he continues approaching, as if he did not hear you. You draw your weapon and point it at him while yelling at him to stop. He continues approaching.

You begin waving your weapon around like an idiot because you think anyone who walks up to you in the woods is a serial killer when the mysterious man tells you to "Get the hell off of my property. You don't have permission to hunt here and if I catch you here again I will call the game warden on you."

Or something like that.

AH.74 · July 29, 2011, 10:00 AM

Quote:

You better believe you are on fairly shaky legal ground. You just committed a felony. If you shoot you just committed murder.

Zincwarrior, you really are caught up in this mentality, aren't you?

I think you are not accurate in this way of thinking. Not all cases are the same, and not all cases are an immediate undertaking of a crime. In the OP there is the element of being attacked, again.

If it was a crime every time someone pulled a gun from a holster we'd be operating under a whole different set of circumstances with regard to being able to carry guns at all.

secret_agent_man · July 29, 2011, 10:09 AM

I would run away, perpendicular to his approach vector if possible. If he then follows, he is not after a light. Retreat accompanied by further pursuit is one of the best indicators of the necessity to defend.

Also watch is eyes. If he suddenly looks side to side while closing, he trying to determine to what extent he is being watched by potential witnesses. It's a known indicator a predatory individual is about to strike his target.

Ringolevio · July 29, 2011, 10:24 AM

This is a scenario fraught with ambiguity and confusion (not that it wouldn't be exactly so in real life).

I'm wondering if a warning shot might prove useful? If the person ignores verbal challenges and continues to advance? I'm thinking of a warning shot as an alternative to drawing and aiming at the person.

My understanding of armed citizen SD doctrine is that a warning shot has no place. But, just like a tree falling in the forest, would a warning shot be a bad move when there's only you and the "threat" to hear it?

Don P · July 29, 2011, 10:26 AM

One would think that when the advancing person saw a handgun being pulled and pointed at him/her and they have/had NO ILL intension's they would stop in there tracks (no more advancement). If they do not stop advancing while having a handgun pointed at them that tells me and this is my opinion that they ILL INTENSION'S toward me. Time to shoot.

MLeake · July 29, 2011, 10:37 AM

Only thing is, what justified drawing down in the first place? As described in the OP's scenario, the stranger's actions are not directly threatening. Weird, maybe, but probably not enough to justify the draw, let alone a shooting.

Learn body language, both how to read and how to project. Learn some physical contact skills. Learn your local SD laws.

July 28, 2011, 07:20 PM	#1
cracked91 Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Posts: 385	Scenario: Unarmed assailant advancing This thought crossed my mind while at work today, and though I doubt this happens often in real life, what would you do? Scenario : You are fishing off the shore at an isolated lake in the mountains, in the distance you see a man approaching you. You are openly carrying. He has no apparent weapons, and is walking rapidly, but not in a necessarily threatening manner. As he gets close to you, you turn to face him, and he continues approaching, closing in closer than 7 yards. You tell him to stop, he continues approaching, as if he did not hear you. You draw your weapon and point it at him while yelling at him to stop. He continues approaching. There could be many, many variants of this scenario. This popped into my head when I thought about my girlfriend who will occasionally OC while we are hiking/fishing in the mountains. She is proficient with handguns, and has a solid head on her shoulders. She is not by any means weak, but could definitely be overpowered by a large male assailant. And I believe she, as well as I, could/would be stumped by the situation. It seems that firing would be fairly shaky legal ground with no witnesses and the aggressor unarmed, while not firing could be fatal. Running could be a very serious gamble. What would you do?

July 28, 2011, 08:58 PM	#6
45Gunner Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2009 Location: Boca Raton, FL Posts: 1,902	Each and everyone has personal space and for each and everyone of us that space varies with our particular area of comfort. If someone violates your personal space, you have two options: 1. retreat to retain your space, or 2. challenge the other person to leave your personal space. Only you can analyze the situation that you have created as you are the one looking into the fictitious person's eyes. Suddenly you realize the person is a figment of your own imagination, can breathe easy, and go back to enjoying the fishing. But wait, is that fish swimming towards you with an open mouth? Do you hear music? Would you run from the water or take out your gun and shoot the fish that you were just trying to catch when in reality he is trying to catch you? Did you check for bears before you entered that area of the lake? OHMYGOSH......they're all out to get you. Run, Forest....run. __________________ 45Gunner May the Schwartz Be With You. NRA Instructor NRA Life Member

July 29, 2011, 01:39 AM	#11
TheNocturnus Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2011 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,097	Make eye contact with them, ask how they are doing and if you can help them with anything. Assuming you get no response just a dead stare, get ready. If they are still rapidly approaching my alarms would be going off. I would step out of the walking line of the individual and if they adjust course to get to you then something is definitely up. If the individual gets within 7 yards and does not stop, you warn them what may happen (Stay back bud, for your own good sort of thing). If they still advance, draw and take aim, last warning. If they still advance with a gun pointed at them, they are either really dumb or up to some sinister plan... open fire then call the authorities. Also, don't go out in the woods or any remote area by yourself. That's just asking for trouble. __________________ My EDC: Gun Wallet Brain (Use this one the most) Last edited by TheNocturnus; July 29, 2011 at 01:48 AM.

July 29, 2011, 07:37 AM	#17
jhenry Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2006 Location: Ozarks Posts: 1,840	You can use deadly force ONLY when the potential assailant has the means, opportunity and intent to cause death or great bodily harm. The scenario does not meet the standard. He may have the means if there is some disparity of force due to size but this is not mentioned. He does have the ability because of proximity. He has demonstrated no intent, none. __________________ "A Liberal is someone who doesn't care what you do, as long as it's mandatory". - Charles Krauthammer

July 29, 2011, 08:09 AM	#19
Glenn Bartley Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 283	Cracked91, I strongly suggest, that before you ever go on a fishing trip or a hike or a camping trip, you take a course or three in armed self defense, including instruction on how to judge a situation and how to react properly before needing to draw and possibly fire your weapon. The scenario as described by you is very indicative that you are unaware of how to properly react and then act once such a situation may arise and that you do not even know what signs to look for that an attack may be imminent and therefore you would testify, in essence, against yourself if you ever went to trial and decided to take the stand. Just to have drawn your gun because someone walked up to within 21 feet of you, without you doing anything else to take precautions and to avoid trouble, except telling him to stop, is very telling that you are not knowledgeable enough about: self defense, the legality of when you may threaten someone with deadly force, what to do if you perceive a threat, what constitutes a potential threat, how to describe the threat, how to react to a threat, how to change reaction into action, and by extension - when you can use deadly force. Sure, in the scenario as first described, you should have your hackles up but draw your gun? There were a lot of other things you could have and should have done had you been in a situation like that before drawing a firearm. Commanding someone to stop may be one of them, but why didn't the person in your made up scenario move to safety, move to put cover between himself and the other person, describe what else about the guy such as height, weight, actions such as avoiding eye contact but always watching your hands and your gun (before you drew), crouching a bit as walking as if stalking you, clenched fist or clenching and opening and clenching again, long steps, or short very determined steps, walking quietly even though the ground was littered with dry twigs and other debris, hands up in a ready to fight position as opposed to him with hands folded twiddling his thumbs, what he did when you moved (if you moved did he adjust to keep coming at you), what he did when you started to walk away faster (if you did walk away faster, did he speed up). Your scenario is seemingly that of a scared person, a very scared person who thinks the gun is the answer to everything as you described. The fact is, as others have mentioned, there could be many reasons this guy was approaching you other than with nefarious intent. For you to think up such a situation and for you to allow the scenario to develop to the point that it did, without the person who felt endangered first having made numerous other observations and assessments and without that person having taken appropriate other actions before drawing, shows me that you are ill prepared to be in such a situation. That may sound harsh but the reality is based upon what you have told us and if that is truly the way you think, I believe you need to get a better education about being an armed citizen than you could do at this forum. I also base my assessment upon well over 30 years of carrying a firearm for self defense, several training courses I have taken, several articles I have read by experts in the field of firearms and self defense, several real life situations I have read about in the news, situations I have winessed first hand, situations that have arisen both on and off my job, having been in several situations wherein I realized I was in danger, having also been in situations where I realized I was not only in some type of possible danger but that I was about to be seriously harmed or possibly killed if I did not act properly, having been in several situations where I had to fight actually to protect myself - including using weapons to defend myself, and including once having to shoot someone. Based on all that and what I can assess of your mindset as evidenced by your scenario, and your follow-up post, I strongly recommend you take some good self defense with firearms courses, or that at least you read some good self defense with firearms books, ones that cover the basics of how to recognize danger, how to avoid it if possible, if not then how to react to it, whether or not you should go to your gun or something else first, how to act to take control of the situation legally and safely. All the best, Glenn B __________________ When I look in the mirror, I am happy to see, some of that nine year old boy, who used to be me. http://ballseyesboomers.blogspot.com/ Last edited by Glenn Bartley; July 29, 2011 at 08:25 AM.

July 28, 2011, 08:32 PM	#2
Buzzcook Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2007 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 6,126	Retreat if possible. If you honestly feel your life is threatened shoot. Legally it's better to be wrongfully convicted of manslaughter then to be dead on a lake shore.

July 28, 2011, 08:34 PM	#3
secret_agent_man Junior member Join Date: March 25, 2011 Posts: 463	Put yourself in his shoes. He is a deaf mute, out walking. Some guy in front of him is waving his arms wildly and appears to be shouting. Suddenly, he pull a gun on the deaf mute. Knowing full well he can sell that to a jury and walk, the deaf mute aims raises his right arm and discharges a round from the Kel Tec P32 he always carries in the palm of his hand. The guy who hesitated is struck in his thorasic triangle and goes down immediately. The deaf mute has a cell phone and dials 911, but can't tell the operator anything. However, his call is documented and later used in court to show the deaf mute had compassion for his attacker. The "man with a gun" and wavy arms who was shouting in a threatening manner according to eyewitnesses bleeds out and dies before medical help arrives. Ain't like a beach.

July 28, 2011, 08:36 PM	#4
9mm Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2011 Location: Land of the Free Posts: 2,834	Pepper spray, toss can a side after spray is out, go for gun if suspect doesn't retreat. This way you wouldn't get charged with brandishing or something stupid, you used pepper spray to try to stop someone, and they kept coming at you and you had to fire. Now if I had a taser, but not for $1000....

July 28, 2011, 08:52 PM	#5
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	Tasers are only 450 now, I've been looking at them lately. The civilian model shocks them for 30 seconds! There is a large grey area between I don't like that guy's attitude, and he's forcing me to shoot, that a Taser would seem to fill nicely.

July 29, 2011, 12:14 AM	#8
Ringolevio Junior member Join Date: March 30, 2011 Location: Where the Kaw meets the Mighty Mo Posts: 241	Move laterally off the line of his approach to you and see what happens. Does he change his course to continue approaching you?

July 29, 2011, 12:40 AM	#9
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	Officer Jared Reston's Taser failed, so he ended up engaging the suspect in hand to hand combat - and then got shot in the chin with a .45 that he wasn't aware that the suspect was carrying... Reston sued the makers... Taser Corp? (I can't remember) But it is a case where a Taser, if it had worked, would probably have saved at least one person's life (the suspect who Jared shot in the head), and it would have saved Officer Reston a number of serious surgeries... not to mention that he still has a bullet in him left over from that gunfight.

July 29, 2011, 02:36 AM	#12
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	The lady and I watched National Geographic: Caught in the Wild last night. One of the segments I found most interesting involved a dive tour off South Africa, where the divers were intentionally in the water with several Tiger sharks, to take pictures and video. The sharks would swim toward the divers, but as long as the divers kept eye contact, and their calm, the sharks would turn away and circle. One diver got nervous, and started back-pedaling and rising toward the surface when a large Tiger closed. That shark followed the diver. This only stopped when the diver realized he had changed the dynamic, and was displaying prey behavior. When the diver stopped swimming backwards and climbing, the shark finally turned away. The point is, body language is something to which predators of all sorts pay heed. Use discretion, and avoid situations where possible, but do not act like prey or you are that much more likely to become prey.

July 29, 2011, 04:33 AM	#13
Einar84 Junior Member Join Date: July 24, 2011 Location: northern Italy Posts: 14	If there are bears or other dangerous animals in your country carry a bear spray, can be useful also for a like this "just in case" situation with a 2 legged problem, and on the other hand you have always the gun too

July 29, 2011, 06:16 AM	#14
zincwarrior Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2011 Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex Posts: 2,259	You better believe you are on fairly shaky legal ground. You just committed a felony. If you shoot you just committed murder.

July 29, 2011, 07:21 AM	#16
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	If the water is no more than knee deep, I'd go as far as to take a few steps into the water. No one, regardless of their mental, cognitive, or physical problems is likely to follow me into the water unless they intend to make contact. If the aggressor is bigger, younger, or appears stronger than me, I'm going to make some noise.

July 29, 2011, 07:56 AM	#18
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	In that scenario, I'm not about to pull my gun out. Some guy out in the woods approaching you???? It's pretty unlikely he's going to try to rob or harm you. Maybe he's lost, looking for directions, needs help with something or just came upon you suddenly - all of these more likely than him wanting to harm you. FWIW, I spend a good amount of time camping and hiking in the woods. I've come up upon folks unexpectedly - it just happens, and I often carry a pistol in the woods. I sure would hate to have someone think that I was threatening them in some manner, pull a gun and start taking shots at me. Personally, I've never come across anyone when I'm out in the woods who isn't out there enjoying nature, doing the same thing I am.

July 29, 2011, 10:09 AM	#22
secret_agent_man Junior member Join Date: March 25, 2011 Posts: 463	I would run away, perpendicular to his approach vector if possible. If he then follows, he is not after a light. Retreat accompanied by further pursuit is one of the best indicators of the necessity to defend. Also watch is eyes. If he suddenly looks side to side while closing, he trying to determine to what extent he is being watched by potential witnesses. It's a known indicator a predatory individual is about to strike his target.

July 29, 2011, 10:24 AM	#23
Ringolevio Junior member Join Date: March 30, 2011 Location: Where the Kaw meets the Mighty Mo Posts: 241	What about a warning shot? This is a scenario fraught with ambiguity and confusion (not that it wouldn't be exactly so in real life). I'm wondering if a warning shot might prove useful? If the person ignores verbal challenges and continues to advance? I'm thinking of a warning shot as an alternative to drawing and aiming at the person. My understanding of armed citizen SD doctrine is that a warning shot has no place. But, just like a tree falling in the forest, would a warning shot be a bad move when there's only you and the "threat" to hear it?

July 29, 2011, 10:26 AM	#24
Don P Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2005 Location: Swamp dweller Posts: 6,187	One would think that when the advancing person saw a handgun being pulled and pointed at him/her and they have/had *NO ILL intension's* they would stop in there tracks (no more advancement). If they do not stop advancing while having a handgun pointed at them that tells me and this is my opinion that they *ILL INTENSION'S* toward me. Time to shoot. __________________ *NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate* *As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.*

July 29, 2011, 10:37 AM	#25
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Only thing is, what justified drawing down in the first place? As described in the OP's scenario, the stranger's actions are not directly threatening. Weird, maybe, but probably not enough to justify the draw, let alone a shooting. Learn body language, both how to read and how to project. Learn some physical contact skills. Learn your local SD laws.