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Old October 16, 2009, 08:45 AM   #101
NRAhab
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I was talking to a fellow writer a while ago about this whole "point shooting" nonsense, and he finally figured out why it came into existence. Have you seen the sights on the pistols that were around during the Fairbairn/Sykes era? To call them "vestigial" would be overly complimentary; adjectives such as "abhorrent", "wretched", and "an insult to sighting systems" would be more appropriate. Which is why this whole "you don't need the sights thing" kind of makes more sense when you couch in the terms of the weapon systems that were around at the time. It was so much that you didn't need the sights, but rather that the sights on pistols of the period were just so ridiculously bad that they offered no advantage in their use.

The problem is that now that we have better, faster sights on our guns, instead of moving forward into the future people are still clinging to an technique designed for 80 year old guns.

Completely unrelated, this is probably one of the best examples of circular logic that I've seen in a while:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Tempkin
But their greatest asset was the large scale training they provided to thousands of men/women who were going into military & police combat
By that reasoning, we should trust their training systems because they trained a lot of people with their training system. Awesome.

Editorial note: I have no dog in this fight. It's fun to watch Matt and Deaf spar over this though, but for my purposes (YMMV) point shooting is pretty much useless. You don't win matches if you don't use the sights.
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Old October 16, 2009, 11:06 AM   #102
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Quote:
You don't win matches if you don't use the sights.
True.

But I don't carry a gun to win a match.
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Old October 16, 2009, 12:33 PM   #103
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Ohhhhhh, now you've done it.

What, pointshooting vs sighted fire wasn't controversial enough for you?

(Seriously -- if you guys are going to head down the competition vs self defense road, please take it to another thread. Preferably one where some other moderator will be the one on the hook! )

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Old October 16, 2009, 01:27 PM   #104
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No worries, the "match" thing was more a disclaimer than anything. I was more interested in the historical observation that point shooting seems to have sprung out of finding a method to compensate for the mechanical deficiencies of period firearms more than any sort of tactical expediency.
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Old October 16, 2009, 04:23 PM   #105
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It was not because the sights were small that point shooting was adopted by Fairbairn & Sykes for the SMP.
After all, they themselves placed shotgun beads on their pistols, yet still taught point shooting as a vital skill.
If better sights were the answer--and they were readily available back then then-- I am sure that all SMP pistols would have been so equipped and point shooting dropped for aimed fire only.
Then again, Applegate died in 1998 and was well aware of improvements in sights, optics and lasers, yet he still felt that point shooting was a vital skill for combat.

PS to Pax--I have never seen anyone who preaches point shooting ever dismiss aimed fire in conjunction with threat focused skills.
To me it is not VS but two vital skills that should be mastered and then let the situation dictate which method should be used.
PPS: D.R. Middlebrooks has used his system of point shooting to win quite a few matches.
Here is a link to his forums
http://www.tacticalshooting.com/

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Old October 16, 2009, 08:48 PM   #106
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But do remember guys, Tom Givens DOES have over 50 documented shootings by his students. At the Polite Society, were alot of trainers give lectures and demos, he gave a power point presentation of 10 of them. The 10 were NOT cherrypicked. He used the 10 because he had very exact information, not only from the police but the students themselves, and thus gave a very detailed view of each shooting.

And in the presentation he showed how to use flash sight picture. Something a lot of people seem to have misconceptions about.

The next conference will be at United States Shooting Academy, Tulsa, OK, April 24-25, 2010. I have no doubt he will have the presentation, hopefully expanded, at the conference.

The Polite Society ain't IDPA or any kind of match. It's totaly about self defense.
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Old October 16, 2009, 09:28 PM   #107
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mddevildog,
I shoot just as good with or with out the laser and practice both ways. The laser just provides a quick visual confirmation of where the weapon is pointed. It also helps solve problems when using it in conjunction with snap caps while practicing. I’m sure that extreme stress or the immanent fear of death will override any hesitation concerning the laser or sight alignment.
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Old October 16, 2009, 10:31 PM   #108
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Quote:
To me it is not VS but two vital skills that should be mastered and then let the situation dictate which method should be used.
the problem I have with your position is I can't think of a situation where point shooting at 50 feet would be the right answer.matter of fact can you give me a situation where point shooting would be the best answer at a distance beyond what would be concidered retention drill distance?
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Old October 17, 2009, 07:02 AM   #109
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There is no best answer to your question.
I have point shot at 15 yards or so just to see if it could be done--and was very pleased with the results.
The only time I "had" to point shoot at 15 yards was when I was shooting to score at my NRA police instructors class back in 1994.
I was shooting my Model 10 at 15 yards ( aimed fire) when, after 3 shots, the target began turning because the allowed time was running out.
Figuring I had nothing to lose I dropped into a crouch and got off three rapid shots from the two handed, point shoulder position.
After I was done my instructor, who was observing through field glasses, commented that my last two shots went through the same hole and the third one would have been close except it bounced off the side of the target which had already turned.
I too was amazed at the distance/pinpoint accuracy that two handed point shooting allowed.
I have had students get back to me with some amazing point shooting results in actual combat.
One, a police training SGT in a large Ohio department told me of one of his charges ( who he trained in point shooting) took out a rifle armed bad guy--at night--at 20 YARDS by point shooting his 9mm pistol.
A Swedish police SWAT officer who I trained used his AimPoint equipped MP5 to point shoot and kill a rifle shooting bad guy at 100 meters.
Turned out that his dot was set to it's highest setting and fully covered the bad guy at such a long distance.
So he looked over the sight, focused on the bad guy's chest and fired a few shots on semi automatic, all of which struck home.
Another Swedish police officer who was trained by one of my students was working patrol when he stopped a car.
When he was reaching in the open window to grab the driver's papers ( yes, big mistake) the driver took off with the cop still stuck in the door and being dragged away. ( In fact the officer was airborne)
The officer took out his Sig 225 and point shot at the only target he was focused on--the drivers foot which was on the gas pedal--which found it's mark and caused the driver to stop the car and surrender.
Although I have never fired a shot in anger I have been in my fair share of armed encounters.
Until one has "been there" they do not realize how fast these situations develop, and what happens to the body under stress.
It is IMHO that to dismiss point shooting because it does not work in competition ( even though quite a few combat sport shooters admit to not using the sights at 3 yards or so) is a mistake.
The fact that point shooting can be mastered in such a short time and low ammo count makes not looking into it more so of a mistake.
Again, just IMHO.

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Old October 17, 2009, 09:28 AM   #110
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Quote:
It is IMHO that to dismiss point shooting because it does not work in competition ( even though quite a few combat sport shooters admit to not using the sights at 3 yards or so) is a mistake.
inside 10 feet IMHO is retention drills.and practicing shooting without any sight reference at ranges much greater than that is IMHO (and apparently other's as well) a mistake might as well grind the sights off if your not going to train with them.

BTW I once shot a sparrow off a phone line with a 10/22 at well over 200yards I just held the crosshairs way over it so we should employ this training to our snipers and get rid of all them range finding gadgets.
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Old October 17, 2009, 09:37 AM   #111
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I was going to ask you what distance you consider retention shooting to be, and we will have to agree to disagree on this.
For the record, I do not call retention shooting retention shooting unless the distance is less than two feet or so.
To me retention shooting is with the gun held way back, probably in contact with your body.
I would not use this out to 10 feet, but would go into to a type of hip, semi hip or point shoulder position instead.
Again, why would I grind the sights off my gun when I fully understand there can and will be situations when a sighted shot is required?
Then again, since a vast majority of handgun encounters happen within 10 feet you are making a very good case for point shooting.

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Old October 17, 2009, 09:46 AM   #112
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Here is a partial review of a class that I taught for Gabe Suarez in 2007.
As you can see, those who have trained in the subject will disagree with the many doubters here:


Quote:
Originally Posted by gojira357
Sighted fire has widespread appeal and point shooting is put down as voodoo science, I think because every aspect of sighted fire can be quantified and explained. Point shooting is more ambiguous, but I can tell you that within its envelope of effectiveness, point shooting is accurate, and more importantly, FAST. It really shines when the shooter is behind the reaction curve and have to deal with a bad guy who has intitated action. Funny, that sounds like what most private citizen shooting scenarios entail.

The class will dispel a lot of myths that are circulating around. "Point shooting is no good at distances further than arm's length." "You can't point shoot while you're moving." "Point shooting is spraying and praying."

Point shooting is a controversial subject in the shooting community, and having experienced it firsthand, I am ready to make my own controversial statement. Ready? Here it is:

Point shooting is not for p@#$#@

There, I said it. Now let me explain.

What does this mean? It's not that the "techniques" are only for HSLD secret squirrel He-Men. It's not that there's some secret, that once revealed, will be so shocking that your hair turns white and your heart will stop in three days. What it means is this: the key in owning this and doing your best using point shooting as taught in this class is pure aggression. If you take this trying to learn techniques, or taking each exercise as only a drill to sharpen skills, it will only take you so far. However, if you apply it by taking the fight to the enemy without thought you will achieve almost superhuman feats.

Okay, now I sound like I've joined the Point Shooting Cult. All I can say is that the targets don't lie. Matt was trying to clarify the statement that point shooting was "instinctive." As a twist to that, in light of what I said above, I would add that point shooting is primal. You can't think about. You can't be timid about it. Put on your warface and just do it.
Can I get an AMEN?!?!?

This was a revelation for me in this class - the essential, heartfelt attitude that I WILL KILL THIS SONOFABITCH NO MATTER WHAT - EVEN THOUGH I MIGHT DIE IN THE PROCESS, I WILL NOT FAIL. Unleashing this primal, controlled fury is the heart and soul of combative point shooting. It's not about punching nice, small groups in a target from a distance - it's all about KILLING YOUR ENEMY BEFORE HE KILLS YOU. Even though your enemy might be represented by a piece of paper, you still unleash the beast within and KILL YOUR ENEMY.

Once Matt finally kicked the Modern Technique out of me after Day One, I shocked myself by squaring off on a photo target at about 3 yards and watching a hole appear as if by magic when Matt blew his whistle - right in the heart where I was focused, and I didn't care where my sights were. It got even better when I planted several more shots within 3 inches of the heart, shooting one-handed from 3/4-hip, at 7 yards.

But, what was REALLY cool was watching Gojira357 drill his target one-handed, again and again, two shots sounding like one, all the way out past 12 yards, WITHOUT USING HIS SIGHTS...ALONG WITH 6 OF 8 OTHER SHOOTERS ON THE SAME LINE.

You can learn the exact same material that Matt taught us from reading Fairbairn and Applegate, and you can try it for yourself within the restrictions of your local range...and you might get disappointed because your groups are so much bigger than your sighted-fire groups, and give up on combative point shooting. Matt WILL NOT let you give up, and he WILL instill the attitude of focused aggression in you, and you WILL succeed in hitting without using your sights in positions, situations and distances that you never imagined you could have before
.
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Old October 17, 2009, 09:59 AM   #113
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Quote:
To me retention shooting is with the gun held way back, probably in contact with your body.
I would not use this out to 10 feet, but would go into to a type of hip, semi hip or point shoulder position instead.
call it what you want still same thing.
Quote:
Then again, since a vast majority of handgun encounters happen within 10 feet you are making a very good case for point shooting.
yes, But I still contend that you don't need to practice it, as it is muscle memory that will naturaly occur with sighted practice as I said earlier in this thread.And yes I have tried it and have no issues hitting COM even out past 7 yards matter of fact I can from a low ready raise the gun and find COM with my eyes closed.
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Old October 17, 2009, 10:02 AM   #114
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Quote:
Okay, now I sound like I've joined the Point Shooting Cult. All I can say is that the targets don't lie. Matt was trying to clarify the statement that point shooting was "instinctive." As a twist to that, in light of what I said above, I would add that point shooting is primal. You can't think about. You can't be timid about it. Put on your warface and just do it.
oh I see you agree.however if point shooting is "instinctive" what exacticly do you teach?
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The starter gun on the "Fat man's mad dash tactical retreat."

Last edited by mavracer; October 17, 2009 at 10:27 AM.
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Old October 17, 2009, 10:49 AM   #115
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the357plan

"I’m sure that extreme stress or the immanent fear of death will override any hesitation concerning the laser or sight alignment."

Actually, that statement, to me, opens up areas for argument. The original point of my post to you was, if in fact you were using the laser and if in fact you did not see the dot on your target, would you hesitate somewhat, for whatever reason. You say not, but to my way of thinking, your mind would not allow you to just slap the trigger anyway. I'm not saying lasers are inappropriate in all circumstances, but if you are attempting to use it and it fails, or is off target, in an environment where you can clearly see your adversary, and there is no clear and absolute bullet stopper directly behind your target, do you shoot anyway? Or does your statement mean because of the stress generated from the possibility of death, you're just going to point and shoot even if you don't see the laser, or the sights. Is that not then "point shooting"? Maybe I misunderstood your previous post, maybe you are a proponent of point shooting and you were just stating you had lasers on all your carry guns as an option. Maybe I'm just being argumentative.
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Old October 17, 2009, 01:22 PM   #116
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mddevildog,

Quote:
The original point of my post to you was, if in fact you were using the laser and if in fact you did not see the dot on your target, would you hesitate somewhat, for whatever reason.
Honestly, I won't know until I've had that experience (which, I hope is never). However, I keep everything in good working order and the laser is always tested prior to strapping on a CCH or before I go to bed.

My preference? The flash sight picture. I was using it (or something similar) thirty years before I ever heard of it. I’ll also admit that when using the laser, I’m primarily point shooting. I think the laser pays off in extremely dark, low light encounters. For Example: In the middle of the night, when my night vision is good, the laser will light up my bedroom and makes it very easy to get the gun on target fast (and I don’t care if the BG gets a heads-up that bad things are about to happen to him).

I think the most hesitation I will ever have is with the evaluation of: Is this really a bad guy? Is this really a bad situation? Once I decided the answer is yes, whatever happens will be fast.
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Old October 17, 2009, 01:24 PM   #117
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I never claimed it was instinctive--that was the student's perception, not my statement..
The only instinct is the ability to point one's finger at an object.
That's it.
As to what I teach see my home study course located here:

http://kilogulf59.proboards.com/inde...lay&thread=114


yes, But I still contend that you don't need to practice it, as it is muscle memory that will naturaly occur with sighted practice as I said earlier in this thread.And yes I have tried it and have no issues hitting COM even out past 7 yards matter of fact I can from a low ready raise the gun and find COM with my eyes closed.

If this is what you believe then we will have to agree to disagree and move on.
I have stated all I can on this matter and now it is up to the lurkers to decide for themselves.
Have a good one.

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Old October 17, 2009, 06:45 PM   #118
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Quote:
But I still contend that you don't need to practice it, as it is muscle memory that will naturaly occur with sighted practice
After my first point-shooting training experience with S.I., I made the comment:
Quote:
I don't think I would have did as well if I didn't have the experience of thousands of rounds aimed downrange.
Since then, I've seen amateur shooters brought to an impressive level of point-shooting ability in a couple of one- and two-day class, Now I think muscle memory has little (if anything) to do with it.
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Old October 18, 2009, 04:29 AM   #119
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Quote:
Since then, I've seen amateur shooters brought to an impressive level of point-shooting ability in a couple of one- and two-day class, Now I think muscle memory has little (if anything) to do with it.
I'm not sure how you would get my saying you don't need to practice point shooting IF YOU PRACTICE SIGHTED FIRE A LOT to mean practicing point shooting won't make you better at it, because that is just stoopid of course practice (esp. with instruction) should make improvements.
I'm saying I agree with blackwater that to actually dedicate training to not using your sights is teaching a bad habit. sure retention drills are a good thing so you learn to not shoot your weak hand or cause a malfunction from having slide hit your body. However getting hits at the ranges these skills should be used at should be no problem for anyone who has enough sighted training that they should be adding this skill. you should to learn to walk first.
Also for a good example of practicing shooting wrong and being good at it watch Tom Knapp some times I'm sure shooting guns up side down is a skill I don't need for SD but he's damn sure good at it.
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Old October 18, 2009, 06:11 AM   #120
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Quote:
I'm not sure how you would get my saying you don't need to practice point shooting IF YOU PRACTICE SIGHTED FIRE A LOT to mean practicing point shooting won't make you better at it, because that is just stoopid of course practice (esp. with instruction) should make improvements.
You read a lot into my post that isn't there.

You said
Quote:
But I still contend that you don't need to practice it, as it is muscle memory that will naturaly occur with sighted practice...However getting hits at the ranges these skills should be used at should be no problem for anyone who has enough sighted training that they should be adding this skill.
And all I added was that amateurs can get very good hits with point shooting after a one or two-day class. How do the new students do this, if they are beginners, and haven't had time to develop 'muscle memory' from 'sighted practice' or 'sighted training?
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Old October 18, 2009, 07:16 AM   #121
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Quote:
How do the new students do this, if they are beginners, and haven't had time to develop 'muscle memory' from 'sighted practice' or 'sighted training?
it's one or two days instructed training muscle memory so that you train your muscles to point the gun where your looking.
proper grip will become muscle memory same for sighted fire training.
proper stance will become muscle memory again same as sighted fire training.

Bottom line if your going to get hits your going to have to have the sights lined up on target might as well use the sights. If you don't have time pull the trigger he's too close and you won't need sights.
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Old October 19, 2009, 07:55 AM   #122
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How can using sights be as fast as point shooting if I don't have to bring my gun to eye level to fire?

Do/can fractions of a second equal living or dying in a shootout?

How important is getting the first hit in?
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Old October 19, 2009, 09:47 AM   #123
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Quote:
How can using sights be as fast as point shooting if I don't have to bring my gun to eye level to fire?
you can't miss fast enough to win anything.
Quote:
Do/can fractions of a second equal living or dying in a shootout?
no less than missing does.

Quote:
How important is getting the first hit in?
extreamly important. that why it's important to train to use the sights.
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Old October 19, 2009, 09:58 AM   #124
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My old friend Threegun....threegun....threegun.....You can't effectively hit your target point shooting. Oh...wait a minute...I forgot...I've seen you shoot. YOU can hit consistently whilst point shooting. I guess practice does makes perfect.
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Old October 19, 2009, 10:59 AM   #125
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Quote:
you can't miss fast enough to win anything.
Statement while 100 percent correct assumes a miss is guaranteed with point shooting and a hit guaranteed with sighted fire. Consistent and good hits are easy at close ranges point shooting with practice.

Quote:
no less than missing does.
Again you assume a PS miss and a SF hit.

Quote:
extreamly important. that why it's important to train to use the sights.
I train to use my sights as well. However I refuse to disregard a tactic that allows me to put lead on target faster. I must ask why would you disregard such an important tactic?

BTW my 10 year old son can point shoot and consistently hit silhouette targets with good hits out to 3 yards. Its not hard it just requires a bit of practice.

Now at retention distances out to 3 yards if you refuse to acknowledge the benefits of point shooting thats fine......you are responsible for you. I know what I can do with point shooting. I know what friends can do with point shooting. I know what my boys can do with it. It with out a doubt is a valuable tool in my box. Not the only tool mind you. I just don't understand why some folks refuse to acknowledge the benefits of this tactic when used within its limitations.
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