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Old August 13, 2019, 06:20 PM   #1
poing
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Mass Shootings: A Better Solution

Hi Everyone,

I joined the forum to discuss an idea I have to address mass shootings.
Something better than federal legislation or other measures that chip away our Second Amendment rights.

While background checks or red flag laws prevent criminals from legally purchasing firearms, they don't actually address the underlying issue.
The mental health and stability of a gun buyer.

I hope to reach the gun sellers, present my idea, gauge receptiveness, and hopefully find people (in the US) willing to champion the idea. Since I'm and Expat living in Japan.

Plus, I'm hoping someone can articulate and communicate the idea better than I can.

It's still just a rough idea and anyone is welcome to provide input.

It's pretty simple idea and it does not infringe on The Second Amendment rights of the people. The key word there is "people", as in the community.
Although it might blur the line between a collective right versus an individual right.

The general idea is, the buyer of a firearm requires friends (or family members) to condone a purchase.
Firearms with a high capacity/high rate of fire would require the buyer to have more friends condone the purchase.

Consider it a simple way to gauge the mental health of the buyer.
If they are not able to bring friends or family to a (gun shop, gun show, private sale) that will condone a purchase, maybe they shouldn't own certain types of firearms.

The gun seller is not rejecting the purchase, their own community is.

I picture a simple form with check boxes and a personal details block for the condoning individuals. ID's should be always be checked.
Where the firearm buyer would need a friend to condone specific criteria of a firearm.
A different person for each of the following characteristics the firearm meets:
  • Handgun
  • Semi-Automatic
  • Magazine Capacity Over 6 Rounds
  • Magazine Capacity Over 10 Rounds
  • Magazine Capacity of 30 or More Rounds
  • Fully Automatic? Bump Stock?

Anyone would be able to purchase a Mossberg 500, Remington 700, and many other models used for hunting without needing anyone to condone the purchase.

To purchase a Derringer or .357 Magnum "six shooter" one (1) friend would necessary to condone the purchase.
Two (2) would be needed to condone the purchase a Smith and Wesson TRR8.

While the purchase of a Glock 26 w/ 33 Round Magazine -or- AR15 with a 30 Round Magazine would require the buyer to bring in five (5) friends to condone the purchase.
And let's not forget that missing the target using "spray and pray" is a good laugh to be enjoyed with friends.

I hope gun sellers might be willing to voluntarily implement something alone these lines throughout the country.
Instead of waiting for legislation dictating the rules for gun sellers, let the gun sellers bring a better solution forward.




Sincerely,
Brian LaVallee
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Old August 14, 2019, 02:11 PM   #2
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Ok - but - -this is exactly like every other "solution".

The problem isn't guns - nor is it knives, or explosives or large trucks or pump up garden sprayers filled with gasoline/dishwashing liquid mix or gasoline spread on the stairway of an upper floor after hours club and lit with a BIC lighter.....

The problem is - - the whacked out people that commit these acts of sensless violence.

Stamp out the source of the problem and it goes away. Concentrate on the symptoms of the problem & they'll just change to something else.
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Old August 14, 2019, 02:20 PM   #3
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Since this thread is not about any law, existing or proposed, it's off topic for this discussion area.

From the rules for the L&CR discussion area:

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Discussions in this forum will be centered upon legal issues as they relate to the 2nd Amendment and other Civil Rights. Constitutional law (which would encompass separation of powers, the impairment of contracts clause, the full faith and credit clause, etc., as well as the Bill of Rights) will also be on topic. Straight political discussions or partisan politics will be off topic. Our primary test for partisan politics in this forum is the mention of candidate's or party names. While some political discussion will necessarily crop up as an adjunct to the civil rights issue(s) of the individual thread(s), we expect that this will be a much smaller part of the discussion at hand.
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Old August 14, 2019, 02:20 PM   #4
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Welcome to TFL, poing!
Quote:
Originally Posted by poing View Post
. . . .It's pretty simple idea and it does not infringe on The Second Amendment rights of the people. The key word there is "people", as in the community.
Although it might blur the line between a collective right versus an individual right. . . . .
Aaaand you've already lost me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by poing View Post
....
The general idea is, the buyer of a firearm requires friends (or family members) to condone a purchase.
Firearms with a high capacity/high rate of fire would require the buyer to have more friends condone the purchase....
That's not "blurring the line" between collective and individual rights. While it does not (at this point) appear to be a governmental mandate, it subjects my rights to the whims of those in my social circle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by poing View Post
....Consider it a simple way to gauge the mental health of the buyer.
If they are not able to bring friends or family to a (gun shop, gun show, private sale) that will condone a purchase, maybe they shouldn't own certain types of firearms....
Or maybe they're perfectly stable, but have a thoroughly despicable personality. Some days, that describes me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by poing View Post
. . . . . Instead of waiting for legislation dictating the rules for gun sellers, let the gun sellers bring a better solution forward....
A seller would get exactly one chance to tell me that I need my friends' permission to decide how I spend my hard-earned money. I'd go to a different seller and never look back.

With all of that said, AB is right. Off-topic and closed.
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Old August 15, 2019, 04:26 AM   #5
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After some discussion among the moderating staff, we have moved this discussion to "General Discussion" because the topic isn't appropriate in 'Law and Civil Rights," and we have re-opened it for discussion.
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Old August 15, 2019, 05:57 AM   #6
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Quote:
Firearms with a high capacity/high rate of fire would require the buyer to have more friends condone the purchase.
This would work well for gang members.
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Old August 15, 2019, 07:00 AM   #7
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Thanks for reopening this thread. It's a bit "off beat". But we do need to expand our thinking and conversations. Lord knows offering "thoughts and prayers" and more "restrictive laws" is not getting us anywhere. All ideas should at least be heard; not necessarily endorsed. I propose an immediate ban on "Gun Free Zones".
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Old August 15, 2019, 07:25 AM   #8
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Are friends/family exposed to any liability? Would friends/family be authenticated? Would it be illegal to pay someone? Would it be possible to form a "buyer's club"? Would employees of a particularly large FFL be excluded?

Are derringers or "six shooters" used in less crime? Are $1329.00 (MSRP) TRR8's used in so much crime that we need more people to vouch for their buyers?

How many buyers would it take for a Glock 26 without a magazine? 2 or 5? Is that excessive for a subcompact?

Why are full autos included? It's so difficult and expensive to lawfully own fully automatic firearms that they have only ever been used in a small single-digit number of crimes. Does that matter?

How are bump stocks included? They are generally illegal for a common person to own and have only one been used in one, single, very high profile crime. Are you now proposing some degree of legalization if I can round up some shooting buddies?

Why aren't the number of required patsies proportional to the amount of crime?
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Old August 15, 2019, 08:44 AM   #9
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Well, I'm sure any gang member will have enough
"friends" to accompany him/her to the store to
vouch for the purchase of just about anything.

And a well-to-do gent/lady should be able to pay
enough people to swear he/she is fit as a fiddle.

Can you imagine the sight at a gun store, however
large or small, where 20 people are each crowded
around a dozen gun buyers at a time.
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Old August 15, 2019, 09:34 AM   #10
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I do appreciate discussions about "thinking outside the box" ideas. When someone just says "ban ARs" or "ban guns" in general, the discussion is done before it started.

That being said, I can't support this idea. As already mentioned, this proposes your ability to own guns is based on how your social circle is. You can be a completely sane and would never hurt a fly, but are just not very socially skilled. Or people think you're weird. That is not a good reason to deny someone their right to bear arms. And it could be easy to just gather some strangers to be your "friends" for the day.

Even if you take away the friend aspect and make it just family members, there are a lot of people who don't have any family or are not in favor of their family.

So what would be the work around for those with no friends or family that can vouch for them? I'm sure one would say they can get a psych eval from a shrink to say you're sane enough to own a gun. I'm against that too by the way. Shrinks are human too and not all are the same. You could be stuck seeing a shrink who secretly hates guns and will be less likely to call people sane enough to own a gun.

Last edited by TrueBlue711; August 15, 2019 at 10:49 AM.
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Old August 15, 2019, 10:05 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueBlue711
That being said, I can't support this idea. As already mentioned, this proposes you ability to own guns is based on how your social circle is.
Or where you live.

I'm a senior citizen and a widower. My only daughter (adopted) is an adult who lives in another country. I am a "gun guy" (of sorts) who has the misfortune of living in a town that is a suburban liberal enclave, one in which the mayor has gone on record in a public meeting with the statement, "We don't like guns here." She got reelected, so people must agree with her. The town attorney didn't even know that the laws of our state allow the use of deadly force in self defense; he stated at a public meeting that the law did not allow the use of deadly force for self defense. [Note: it does.]

The people I knew from high school have pretty much all died or moved out of the state. My brother and sister live in other states. People move into and out of town so often these days that I only know one of my neighbors, and we're not friends -- we're just neighbors who have each other's phone numbers if we need to call about something affecting the neighborhood.

So where am I supposed to find even one person to vouch for me if I just want to buy a .22 caliber plinker? Where am I supposed to find four or five people to vouch for me if I want to buy something uber-deadly? Can I 3-D print them?

You introduced this notion by saying that it "might blur the line between a collective right versus an individual right." I disagree. It doesn't blur the line. You don't understand the line. You appear to think that the reference to "the people" in the Second Amendment is a collective reference to the population. That view has been discredited for many years, and it was shredded and eviscerated by the decision in the Heller case, in which the Supreme Court specifically ruled that the RKBA in the Second Amendment is an individual right.

You also say that your proposal "does not infringe on The Second Amendment rights of the people." [Your emphasis] Please explain how this does not infringe my rights. Today, I can call up my FFL, order pretty much any firearm I want (as long as it's not a full automatic "machine gun"), and pick it up in three or four days when he calls to tell me it arrived. You want me to have to have five people (whom I have zero chance of finding) to go with me to a gun shop and sign a paper attesting that I am not a danger to society, so I should be allowed to buy my new toy. Aside from the problem of what liability this might create for those hypothetical five people I have zero chance of finding ... HOW IS THIS NOT AN INFRINGEMENT OF MY RIGHTS?

If you think this is not an infringement, I respectfully suggest that you get out a dictionary and look up the definition and etymology of the word "infringe."
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Old August 15, 2019, 10:18 AM   #12
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The problem is EVERYBODY gives a damn about random acts of mass killing. They are like a plane crash horrible but a statistical anomaly.

NOBODY gives a damn about the thousands of folks killed in St. Louis, Chicago, Baltimore, Memphis etc. in a given year.

You want to make a REAL difference? Dump money into local PDs. Train them, equip them and put lots of boots on the beat and SUPPORT THEM. Aggressively police, especially violent crime. Shots fired? RUN IT DOWN. Attempted assault RUN IT DOWN. Assault RUN IT DOWN. Don’t wait to dump your resources into actual murder just because Jonny Neck Tattoo hasn’t managed to graduate to actual killing doesn’t mean he’s not on his way. Stop him BEFORE IT HAPPENS.

As for the anomalies crazy does what crazy does. You just had a nut job burn 30 folks to death. So, maybe have 20 friends sign off that you can buy a couple Jerry cans of fuel????

Also we need to look at these folks and see what medications they were on if any. Is there a correlation that bears further research.

Point is if all the folks around me say I am crazy as a loon and I am just looking to kill folks chances are denying me a firearm isn’t gonna make me less crazy and it probably won’t stop me from taking out a bus full of nuns should I desire.

NOTE- DEAR NSA. I HAVE NO DESIRE TO TAKE OUT A BUS FULL OF NUNS NOR DO I THINK I AM CRAZY. AT THE VERY LEAST I HAVE NO DESIRE TO HURT ANYBODY.
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Old August 15, 2019, 10:31 AM   #13
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Quote:
You want to make a REAL difference? Dump money into local PDs. Train them, equip them and put lots of boots on the beat and SUPPORT THEM. Aggressively police, especially violent crime. Shots fired? RUN IT DOWN. Attempted assault RUN IT DOWN. Assault RUN IT DOWN. Don’t wait to dump your resources into actual murder just because Jonny Neck Tattoo hasn’t managed to graduate to actual killing doesn’t mean he’s not on his way. Stop him BEFORE IT HAPPENS.
rant on
While all well and good, it doesn't mean anything when the justice side of the equation pleads them down or out of jail with basically zero consequences for their actions all because "it costs too much". Runs the prisons like they do in third world countries and maybe no one will ever want to go back. Want to eat? Your family better bring you food. No tv, weight sets, libraries; prison is SUPPOSED to be a PUNISHMENT, not a temporary stay on their criminal career path.
Rant over
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Old August 15, 2019, 10:34 AM   #14
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FITASC,

You are absolutely correct. Sorry I sort of meant the whole equation just didn’t articulate.
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Old August 15, 2019, 11:06 AM   #15
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Quote:
This would work well for gang members.
Many good arguments have been offered against this idea, but this is chief among them in my mind.
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Old August 15, 2019, 12:57 PM   #16
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Quote:
It's pretty simple idea and it does not infringe on The Second Amendment rights of the people. The key word there is "people", as in the community.
The community doesn't get a say about your, or my individual rights.
The idea may fly in a more collective minded society, such a Japan, or socialist Europe, but the US is much, much more focused on the rights of the individual.

The Heller vs DC Supreme Court ruling clearly stated that the right to arms is an INDIVIDUAL right, and exists independent of the collective right.


Your idea about needing 1 friend for this gun, and 5 for that one, or worse for the just magazine for that one, are completely arbitrary, and doesn't make sense to me. Also, I know people who have many friends and are not "safe. stable" people who can legally possess firearms. I think the principle is flawed and unworkable in practical terms. Better take a dozen people with you when you put gasoline in your car, so they can sign a document saying you won't, in their opinion, use the gas to commit arson, its the same principle.

Read the Bill of Rights. Look at the places and ways the term "the people" is used. It is used to refer to INDIVIDUAL people's rights.

You don't have free speech only in a group. You don't need to have friends to choose which church, if any, you attend. You don't have to be part of a group to have legal protection from unreasonable search and seizure, or self incrimination. Etc., etc...

Community standards of what is, and is not acceptable behavior are fluid. Some things remain constant, like rape and murder being bad things, but other things change, and sometimes change rapidly and radically.

We see this all the time, in varying degrees about all kinds of things. Relying on community opinion to determine your rights is, essentially, mob rule.

It may seem kinder and gentler than a shouting angry mob with pitchforks and torches, but that just the surface appearance.
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Old August 15, 2019, 01:24 PM   #17
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Not meant to be a joke, but what of the wife that thinks you have enough firearms, or the family member that is anti 2A (I have one)? They easily achieve their agenda by saying you're unfit. What's the next step? Confiscation, because you're unfit to purchase a gun, now makes you unfit to own the ones you have?
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Old August 15, 2019, 03:09 PM   #18
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This type of process actually exists already, but in a different gun related scenario. I can't join any local gun clubs without an NRA membership. I also need a sponsor, and my application has to be approved by a committee.

However I still have access to other ranges that have different requirements. In other words I have choices.

Imagine applying these rules to the 1st Amendment. What if you had to bring a group of friends somehow to create your own blog?

Or what if you had to bring at least one friend or family member with you when you voted? This slope is so slippery it belongs in a waterpark.
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Old August 15, 2019, 03:09 PM   #19
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Unfortunately there is no solution.
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Old August 15, 2019, 03:58 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mainah
This type of process actually exists already, but in a different gun related scenario. I can't join any local gun clubs without an NRA membership. I also need a sponsor, and my application has to be approved by a committee.
Bad example. A gun club isn't the government, and joining a gun club is not a constitutional right. A gun club is, at its root, a private social organization that happens to share an interest in firearms and shooting. In terms of organization, it's no different from a bowling club, a darts club, or a drinking club. Members get to decide on the rules pertaining to their club. If they want to make NRA membership a prerequisite, that's their right. If they want a majority of current members to approve new members, that's also their right.
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Old August 15, 2019, 03:59 PM   #21
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Quote:
The general idea is, the buyer of a firearm requires friends (or family members) to condone a purchase.
Firearms with a high capacity/high rate of fire would require the buyer to have more friends condone the purchase.
OK, but we cannot just stop there. Lets have friends/family condone an individuals ability to purchase alcohol. Cigarettes. Fast food. Birth control. Sports cars. Power tools. Amazon purchases. Garage sale finds.

Some of those are things people purchase or obtain for lawful legitimate reasons. Some are things people with mental health problems indulge in. Ever see the show Hoarders? My 600 lb life? Teen Mom? Catfish?

The media wants everyone to believe that guns, mass shootings, etc are a violent scourge, and that guns are the leading cause of death in this country. They insist that gun control will stop these horrible tragedies, and that lives will be saved.

The statistics they push talk about how many mass shootings happen, one a day, hundreds of school shootings, thousands of casualties, it goes on and on and on.

And while everyone in this country does grieve over those who die at the hands of maniacs and psychopaths, some of us realize that maniacs and psychopaths are amongst us, each and every day. People with evil intent are in our midst.

Know what the real figures look like? In a nation of approximately 325,000,000 residents, and with annual firearm related homicides approximately 12,000; the percentage of firearm homicides takes 0.0035% of our nations population. Heart disease takes 610,000 each year, which is 1.9% of the population.
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Old August 15, 2019, 04:33 PM   #22
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How effective would this process be in actually stopping incidents? If applied to the individual responsible for the Las Vegas shooting, I'd hazard a guess that he would have produced the requisite number of friends to vouch for him. Yet after the fact it appears that not one person had any inkling of his murderous intent, and no motive has ever been found.

Sure this is only one example, but it should have an extremely high rate of success in identifying the bad guys and an extremely low error rate in misidentifying the good guys. Potentially this would involve hundreds of thousands or even millions of transactions, with an extreme number of people involved as character witnesses.
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Old August 15, 2019, 05:27 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by LeverGunFan
Sure this is only one example, but it should have an extremely high rate of success in identifying the bad guys and an extremely low error rate in misidentifying the good guys. Potentially this would involve hundreds of thousands or even millions of transactions, with an extreme number of people involved as character witnesses.
Are you saying that you think this is a good idea, or that you don't think it's a good idea?

How would this scheme have "an extremely high rate of success in identifying the bad guys"? Lots of very bad guys have lots of very bad friends.
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Old August 15, 2019, 05:47 PM   #24
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Regarding gun violence, there's no laws at any government level stating it's illegal for a gun to kill someone.

Once there is, then guns could be arrested, tried, convicted then jailed or destroyed for killing someone.

But then, similar laws need be established to do the same for knives....axes.....baseball bats....etc.....

I've always thought some people were violent. Guns are inanimate things that do nothing on their own.

What about pens that write bad checks?
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Old August 15, 2019, 05:50 PM   #25
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Quote:
Are you saying that you think this is a good idea, or that you don't think it's a good idea?

How would this scheme have "an extremely high rate of success in identifying the bad guys"? Lots of very bad guys have lots of very bad friends.
Given the example I cited, I doubt that it would have a very high rate of success.
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