Gun transfer

[uscfaninaz]

My father in law lives in California, I live in Arizona. He wants to give me and send to me 2 handguns and their ammo. What do we need to do? Can he send/mail/ship these items to me?

[raimius]

NO!
You are residents of different states, so the transfer has to go through a licensed dealer (FFL). (Otherwise you both commit federal offenses.)

One way to legally do it would be for him to find a local FFL, and you to find one as well. Then, he has his local FFL ship them to your local FFL, who would then transfer them to you (and run a background check).

[Spats McGee]

raimius nailed it. That's a big ol' NOPE!

Because you're residents of different states, the transfer has to go through an FFL, by federal law (18 USC 922). Also, because these are handguns, it must be an FFL in the transferee's (your) state of residence. (also 18 USC 922).

Having your father take the guns to an FFL, and having the FFL handle the shipping, will add to the cost, but is the simplest way to get the guns transported. Having your father simply ship or mail you the guns would amount to federal felonies on both your part and his.

[CowTowner]

I think you would also want to check California law as to whether or not you can accept transfer of more than 1 handgun in 30 days.

[Don P]

I think you would also want to check California law as to whether or not you can accept transfer of more than 1 handgun in 30 days.

Hum, sender lives in Cal. and the recipient lives in Arizona so I'm confused

[FITASC]

Or, your dad can drive them to AZ where you both go to your FFL and do the transfer there; or he could ship them to your FFL - the last being expensive because he would have to use either Fedex or UPS overnight.
Those are also legal ways to do this.
Which works out the most convenient and economical you need to decide.

[CowTowner]

Hum, sender lives in Cal. and the recipient lives in Arizona so I'm confused

So am I until my first walk around the block in the morning. I got it wrong.
Please accept my apology.

[kilimanjaro]

Never, ever, ever, ever, put a handgun in the mail except through an FFL dealer. Big time fines, court, lawyer expense, lose-your-house-and-car kind of expenses, and a probable felony record. Then you lose the rest of your guns and have employment issues the rest of your life.

[ammo.crafter]

You should check with your resident state as well. They may consider these transfers the same as new gun purchases which may require specific permits, etc.

The sender should check with the state of California as regards transfer as that state is well known for its oddities and penalties.

Forewarned is forearmed!

Oh, how we law abiding citizens are caused to suffer!

[Reloader54]

Originally Posted by uscfaninaz

My father in law lives in California, I live in Arizona. He wants to give me and send to me 2 handguns and their ammo. What do we need to do? Can he send/mail/ship these items to me?

He can send them to you. But you both need to do it through someone that has a FFL. That is I believe is the only way that he can send them to you under the law. Unless you go and pick them up in person.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by FITASC

Or, your dad can drive them to AZ where you both go to your FFL and do the transfer there; or he could ship them to your FFL - the last being expensive because he would have to use either Fedex or UPS overnight.

But an FFL can mail handguns, and many handguns will fit into an inexpensive, Priority Mail flat rate box. It's often far less expensive to pay an FFL his transfer fee and have him mail a handgun than it is to send it (or transport it) by any other method.

[FrankenMauser]

But an FFL can mail handguns, and many handguns will fit into an inexpensive, Priority Mail flat rate box. It's often far less expensive to pay an FFL his transfer fee and have him mail a handgun than it is to send it (or transport it) by any other method.

Yep.

I always ship handguns through FFLs, unless someone else is ponying up the cash for the ridiculous Next Day/Overnight shipping cost.


The last one that I shipped on my dime would have cost $129 through Fedex or $98 through UPS. I had an FFL ship it Priority Mail for $12. He provided the box and packing materials, took a little slice off the top for his own pocket, and still saved me $86 to $117.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by Reloader54

....Unless you go and pick them up in person.

Wrong. Why do people continue to believe this garbage? It hasn't been legal since 1968 and has been thoroughly debunked on-line so many times over the years.

So, no, he can't legally go and pick them up in person.

Here (for the umpteenth time) is the whole federal law story on interstate firearms transfer (not including the rules for those with Curio and Relic licenses):

1. Under federal law, any transfer (with a few, narrow exceptions, e. g., by bequest under a will) from a resident of one State to a resident of another must be through an FFL. The transfer must comply with all the requirements of the State in which the transfer is being done as well as all federal formalities (e. g., completion of a 4473, etc.).
   
   
2. In the case of handguns, it must be an FFL in the transferee's State of residence. You may obtain a handgun in a State other than your State of residence, BUT it must be shipped or deleivered by the transferor to an FFL in your State of residence to transfer the handgun to you.
   
   
3. In the case of long guns, it may be any FFL as long as (1) the long gun is legal in the transferee's State of residence; and (2) the transfer complies with the laws of the State in which it takes place; and (3) the transfer complies with the law of the transferee's State of residence.C] In connection with the transfer of a long gun, some FFLs will not want to handle the transfer to a resident of another State, because they may be uncertain about the laws of that State. And if the transferee resides in some States (e. g., California), the laws of the State may be such that an out-of-state FFL will not be able to conduct a transfer that complies.
   
   
4. There are no exceptions under the applicable federal laws for gifts, whether between relatives or otherwise, nor is there any exception for transactions between relatives.
   
   
5. The relevant federal laws may be found at: 18 USC 922(a)(3); 18 USC 922(a)(5); and 18 USC 922(b)(3).
   
   
6. Here's what the statutes say:

   18 U.S.C. 922. Unlawful acts
   
   (a) It shall be unlawful—
   ...
   
   (3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph
   

   (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State,
   
   (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and
   
   (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;

   ...
   
   (5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
   

   (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and
   
   (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

   ....
   
   (b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver --
   ...
   
   (3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this paragraph
   

   (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and
   
   (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

   ...

[MurBob]

So I'm a bit confused on this.. Call me stupid but I'd rather ask the dumb question than make a mistake.

Am I to understand that it is illegal for the guy in California to just ship the handgun directly to an FFL dealer in Arizona?

If it is illegal, can someone explain why?? What's the reasoning that goes into the requirement to use an FFL dealer on both sides.??

[2ndsojourn]

No, it is not illegal for someone to send a gun to an FFL in another state. However a lot of FFL's are leery of doing it because they're not comfortable with Xerox copies of ID of the sender.

A FFL can send a handgun by US mail, ...individuals can't. Like stated above, it's often times cheaper to pay a FFL in the sender's state his fees to mail it to another FFL in another state instead of sending it overnight via UPS or FedEx who charge ~$100+.

[MurBob]

instead of sending it overnight via UPS or FedEx who charge ~$100+.

So standard UPS Ground or Fedex ground isn't allowed? I have a UPS account because I ship stuff for my business and the prices I pay for ground service is around 1/2 of what someone would pay just walking into a ups store.

It would probably cost me about $18 to send a handgun from Michigan to California. (assuming its not a stainless steel 44 magnum revolver with a 12 inch barrel that weighs ten pounds)

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by MurBob

So standard UPS Ground or Fedex ground isn't allowed? I have a UPS account because I ship stuff for my business and the prices I pay for ground service is around 1/2 of what someone would pay just walking into a ups store.

Check their tariffs carefully.

The last time I checked, UPS required handguns to be shipped via Next Day Air Saver at a minimum.

Additionally—again, the last time I checked—both UPS and FedEx require an adult signature on the receiving end, and there is a surcharge for this.

[FITASC]

There is nothing against Federal law ab out you using UPS/Fedex ground. HOWEVER, both carriers have in their tariffs prohibitions against it being allowed, so you - as an individual - will have to use overnight services which are expensive; which is why most say to just use your local FFL as he can ship handguns via USPS priority mail.

All of that being said, I have no idea what this scenario is like in CA with all of their new regulations. Perhaps someone can chime in in that regard??

[uscfaninaz]

Thank you all for your inputs. I will relay info ti father in law. I believe best bet is ffl's on both ends. Again, thank you to all.

[Frank Ettin]

California law presents no issues here. The guns are going to an Arizona resident and will need to be transferred to him by an FFL in Arizona.

The only California issue is that the father-in-law might want to file the "no longer in possession" form with the California DOJ to create a record that he has transferred away guns which he might be on record as owning. That's probably a good idea but not legally required.

[62coltnavy]

UMMV with shipping through an FFL. Two I checked out here in northern California believed it was necessary for them to list the gun on their books, and then ship it out overnight. They considered this a "transfer" (since they were taking possession of a firearm) so the fee just to have them ship a handgun was $75 (which is the same fee they charge for any transfer of a firearm not purchased from them) plus shipping. So I went to UPS. No big deal. You have to declare the firearm to the clerk (but not on the package), the firearm must be unloaded and in a locked container, and it has to be shipped to an FFL, signature required upon receipt. It cost me $59 to ship a handgun to my son's FFL in Tacoma. It would have cost me more than twice that to use an FFL here to ship it to an FFL there.

Frank will correct me if I am wrong, but I believe you can ship rifles and shotguns USPS, just not handguns, and again they must ship to an FFL.

[2ndsojourn]

"...the firearm must be... in a locked container, "

Are you sure about that? How does the receiving FFL get it out?

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by 62coltnavy

Frank will correct me if I am wrong, but I believe you can ship rifles and shotguns USPS, just not handguns, and again they must ship to an FFL.

I'm not Frank but I'll bite, as I wrote much of the USPS info in the "How to ship firearms" sticky.

Rifles and shotguns are mailable, but they must meet the definition of Rifle or Shotgun from USPS Publication 52 § 431.4.

431.4 Rifles and Shotguns

A rifle is a shoulder weapon having a barrel that is 16 inches or more in length. A shotgun is a shoulder weapon having a barrel that is 18 inches or more in length. Rifles and shotguns have an overall length of 26 inches or greater and cannot be concealed on a person.

Take note that there must be an appropriate shoulder stock and barrel in the package for the firearm to be "...a shoulder weapon having a barrel that is __ inches or more in length... [and] an overall length of 26 inches or greater". Notably, PGO shotguns and stripped AR lowers and FAL uppers do not meet the definition, although it's perfectly legal to mail an assembled—or disassembled but complete—AR or FAL rifle.

The postal regulations do not require a FFL on the receiving end when the transfer would not require a FFL under other circumstances. It's lawful to mail a rifle or shotgun to yourself, or to another non-prohibited unlicensed person in the same state when not otherwise prohibited by state law.

Lastly, it's worth noting that—unlike UPS or FedEx tariffs—the postal regulations carry the force of law, and the penalties for violations are NOT trivial!

[IANAL disclaimers apply]

[dogtown tom]

62coltnavy UMMV with shipping through an FFL. Two I checked out here in northern California believed it was necessary for them to list the gun on their books,

They are correct.

....and then ship it out overnight...

Not required by law, but a requirement of FedEx and UPS.

They considered this a "transfer" (since they were taking possession of a firearm) so the fee just to have them ship a handgun was $75 (which is the same fee they charge for any transfer of a firearm not purchased from them) plus shipping.

It is a transfer.
You just need to find a better/cheaper FFL.

So I went to UPS. No big deal. You have to declare the firearm to the clerk (but not on the package), the firearm must be unloaded and in a locked container,

No FedEx/UPS/USPS policy or regulation requires a locked container.