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May 31, 2006, 09:39 AM | #26 |
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If you're shooting a Garand, it doesn't really matter whether you want to do a Tac Reload or not
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Semper Fi- David Williams "Sabah al khair -- ismee Dave, ahnee al Shayṭān" |
May 31, 2006, 11:01 AM | #27 |
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Pickpocket - the point is that most of the reload argument is speculative. That's what you just spouted. Hypotheticals and what ifs. None of them are new in the analysis of the reloading debate.
One way to resolve such gun forum debates is to see what works under stress in real incidents or well designed studies (which have been used in many, many other stress situations). The gun world just prefers BS endless debates. Once a BSer decides their position is 'truth' - then they denounce the need for actual data or research. What a yawn! If there was a true lull in the fighting - then the difference in the classic tac or retentiona would mean nothing but still folks blah, blah about it. Like I said - the proof is in the pudding - let's evaluate cases where the different techniques actually did anything or a realistic simulation where it meant something for the police or civilian. Also, if you are an expert - who are you? You claim many incidents. Time to share. My point about the difference between mag safety guns and those without was that all the reload blather impacts gun choice - didn't you get that?
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May 31, 2006, 11:36 AM | #28 |
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Some of you guys are getting off the original subject. I didn't ask if you believed in the TAC reload, I asked what the current technique was among different trainer's.
Each individual can determine for themselves if it is a skill they wish to practice. As for me, I don't think it hurst to have planned for this event. I may never need to do it, but then again I might. |
May 31, 2006, 12:46 PM | #29 | ||||||
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The thread never asked for an analysis of the Tac Reload. Some people believe it's useful, some don't. That's the way of the world. Quote:
This is a circular debate with no real universally accepted truth, and you had to know this going in. Quote:
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I spent two years kicking in doors and clearing houses. I have one 11-day continuous operation under my belt - so at the very least I understand the need to not drop your magazines all over the place because you might just want to reload some of them at some point. Suffice it to say that when you're not sure how many rounds you put through the last three guys and you have to kick in another door, you might want to put in a fresh mag - just in case. Quote:
Please do not take this as insulting, because that's not the intent here, but what I see is that I have formed opinions based on my experience and you seem to be forming them based on the lack of that same type of experience. I'm not saying that your opinion is invalid, just that the experiences that have formed our respective opinions has been different. At the end of the day, the Tac Reload is just another tool. It has its pros and cons, just like any tool. It will fail you if used at the wrong time or in the wrong situation, just like any tool. It will seem unecessary until you need it, just like any tool. The central concepts behind the Tac Reload are to minimize the amount of time your weapon is without a source of ammo and to retain the spent/partially spent magazine in case you might need it later. If we can agree that both of those may be important things to consider, then why does it matter what it's called?
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May 31, 2006, 02:09 PM | #30 |
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I know its not a tactical reload but it is very impressive anyway.
http://www.break.com/index/quickload.html |
May 31, 2006, 03:46 PM | #31 |
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reload
Dump the empty mag while reaching for the fresh mag. slam fresh mag home, release slide stop. DO NOT SAVE EMPTY MAGAZINE. An empty magazine is worthless. If time permits, one may save a partialy loaded magazine. Also, do not waste time saving empty speed loaders, or empty brass. Dead cops have been found with empty speedloaders/brass in their hands, because that's how they trained. They didn't want to have to look for their empties on range day.
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May 31, 2006, 05:12 PM | #32 |
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tshadow6 -
You have a point and I understand it quite well, but remember, this wasn't a discussion on the merits of Tactical vs. Combat reloading, simply a discussion of technique. What you are pointing out is a "administrative" training issue, not a problem with application of a specific technique.
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May 31, 2006, 06:08 PM | #33 |
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Reloads
Everyone here has already said it .What worked for me was to start slowly and very deliberately and just performing them over and over cause you know what they say is smooth is fast and so far has work for me. But heck just mt 2 cents. Be Safe Out There. Kurt
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June 2, 2006, 03:52 PM | #34 |
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As mentioned, lots of theories...
Stryker, forgive me if I'm misunderstanding your desire here. Are you interested in gun handling skills for defense purposes, or are you dealing with shooting games? When I first read your initial question, I was thinking in terms of real world problems. If, however, you are discussing 'gun juggling' skills in order to shoot low times and win competitions, I can't help you.
However, and presuming a real time aspect, allow me this observation: Keep your gun loaded! Ammo is only of use when it is in the firearm. One of the absurdities foisted upon shooters is the 'tactical reload with retention'. I suppose it's great to add in for 'competition' but I fail to see the real world significance. Sadly, it has been incorporated into law enforcement training; along with lower power, high capacity firearms in an effort to replace marksmanship with multiple attempts. I quit shooting in 'combat' matches when the rulebooks went beyond about two pages, the guns grew - stuff and shooters turned into 'athlete competitors'. But I think I'm digressing. Forgive the rant.
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June 2, 2006, 04:23 PM | #35 |
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Archie,
My desire was to know what was being taught out there in other agencies/schools? At no time did I intend this thread to turn into an argument pro/con onthe issue. As I said previously, I will leave it up to individuals to decide the worthiness of the technique. Regards |
June 2, 2006, 06:16 PM | #36 |
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Well, just for the record, the agency for which I work (one of the large federal ones) teaches 'combat' and 'tactical' reloading.
"Combat" reload is from an empty gun; 'tactical' is with retention.
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June 2, 2006, 06:37 PM | #37 |
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June 12, 2006, 07:26 PM | #38 | |
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As Glenn pointed out, if the tactical reload mattered at all outside of long-term military-like operations somebody, somewhere, sometime, would have found an instance where it made a difference. The fact that nobody has ever done so is pretty tellilng. |
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June 12, 2006, 08:30 PM | #39 |
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I don't like them either. But if your going to do it then do the following:
1. FIND COVER. 2. Check six all around back to six. 3. Keep the gun at chest level. 4. Release the mag and put in your pocket, as your hand comes up grab the new mag and load it in the gun. Other things to consider: 1. Does your gun have a magazine disconnect? 2. How many mags do you have on you? Is it time to split or stay and fight? 3. What if your wounded? Now what? 4. How many bad guys are still standing? 5. A New York reload is faster. 6. Carry your spare mag in a decent mag carrier. Not a pocket. Some disagree with the tactical reload and some don't. If you choose to do so, practice until your blazing fast. |
June 13, 2006, 06:22 PM | #40 | |
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I find the notion that people can't afford to learn more than one thing absurd. I would much rather walk through life having learned a skill that I never had to use than find myself wishing too late that I had learned it.
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June 14, 2006, 12:17 PM | #41 | |||
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June 14, 2006, 12:48 PM | #42 | |
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You're right - we'll just agree to disagree.
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June 16, 2006, 08:43 AM | #43 |
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Pickpocket,
Where di you first learn the Tac reload? |
June 16, 2006, 09:08 AM | #44 |
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First learned it in the Marine Corps, with an M-16, and where magazine retention is stressed primarily because of extended operations and little chance of finding a supply depot out in the desert to issue new magazines.
Since then, I've found at least one shooting system that takes the time to explain a variation on the traditional Tactical Reload - which is synonomous with "magazine retention". The C.A.R. system explains this variation as a Tac-Com (Tactical/Combat), which is simply a hybrid of the traditional definitions of both Combat Reload and Tactical Reload. Many people here arguing against the Tac Reload have a very valid point - sometimes magazine retention becomes the primary focus to the exclusion of the real goal: topping off your mag without running to slide-lock. In all honesty, it just doesn't make sense to say "I will ALWAYS retain my magazine". Sometimes, you're just going to want to make sure there's a full magazine in the weapon and you're not going to care about where the old one falls. I hear and agree with the arguments that always worrying about where your spent mags are will end up badly for you one day. But, then again - do ANY of us here advocate ALWAYS doing something the same way, or do we prefer to adapt to the situation? Same here. Koz posted a video earlier in the thread and stated that the example wasn't a Tac Reload. Maybe not, but it certainly does fit the description of C.A.R.'s Tac-Com...dropping a used mag in favor of a new one but not worrying about retention.
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June 16, 2006, 11:22 AM | #45 |
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I also learned with the M-16. We always had to try and keep the mag on us, but if it was dropped we were told to forget about it.
M9 was taught the classic version but never did it during the course basic of fire, however, during advanced courses of fire, we practiced 1 hand, weak hand, rapid, and tactical reloads. These are all techniques I taught for 10+ years. |
June 16, 2006, 05:50 PM | #46 | |
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