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Old October 17, 2020, 10:01 PM   #26
TXAZ
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As a parishioner I would hope the security team was well trained and able to hit a moving threat (and not non-combatants) at the longest possible diagonal distance in the church.

I don't believe a pocket gun is the right weapon for that in any room that has more than 100 square feet in it.
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Old October 17, 2020, 10:19 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
I can't recommend a PP, terrible DA and not as reliable as others.
A Sig P230, P232, or CZ 82 if you just must .380.
Better a 9mm with light fast JHP. My P225 is pretty flat and a P239 is somewhat modernized. Compact CZs shoot well if you will dress to cover the thicker butt.
I do really love CZ’s, but I just don’t know about them and my concealment requirement. I really wish they made a single stack subcompact. It would be my automatic choice.
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Old October 17, 2020, 10:43 PM   #28
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Springfield XDe 3.3 9mm DA/SA with thumb safety decocker 8+1
Just looked this one up, And it seems great. Maybe exactly what I’m looking for! My only concern is how new it is. Do you know if there are any issues? Most new designs have them till they get them worked out. Springfield isn’t a typical da/sa manufacturer to my limited knowledge
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Old October 17, 2020, 11:29 PM   #29
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I was under the impression that Kahr’s were around 7lbs and had more creep than other strikers that have typically 5lbs or even less with the new sigs and the like.
Kahr triggers tend to feel long but are light, smooth and consistent.

The two Kahr triggers I've measured (CW9 & P9) were between 5.5lbs and 6.0lbs in pull weight. By the way, the P9/CW9 size is very shootable--most folks will be able to get all three fingers on the grip.

"Creep", IMO, is a term that does not apply to DA/DAO type triggers. They have takeup and long travel intentionally and unavoidably. "Creep" is a term that has to do with trigger travel prior to the trigger break. In the ideal single-action type trigger, there is no trigger travel at all before the break. Any trigger travel before the break is termed "creep".

Anyway, some people dislike Kahr triggers because they feel long and they are hard to "stage". The trigger pull weight is pretty constant all the way through the pull. A lot of people want to feel a takeup, some easily discernible increase in trigger pull weight right before the break and then a clean break. Kahr triggers tend to pull all the way through smoothly without a lot of buildup to the break.

Also, people who want to shoot from the reset will probably find Kahr triggers irritating. The reset isn't super-distinct, and anyway, you have to pretty much release the trigger completely before it resets.

I highly recommend that you try to handle one if they interest you. It is certainly true that the triggers are sort of unusual, but that doesn't mean they're bad triggers or difficult to shoot well. You might really like how they work. Or you might hate them. Either way, actually getting your hands on one is about the only way to be sure.
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Old October 17, 2020, 11:44 PM   #30
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Kahr triggers tend to feel long but are light, smooth and consistent.

The two Kahr triggers I've measured (CW9 & P9) were between 5.5lbs and 6.0lbs in pull weight. By the way, the P9/CW9 size is very shootable--most folks will be able to get all three fingers on the grip.

"Creep", IMO, is a term that does not apply to DA/DAO type triggers. They have takeup and long travel intentionally and unavoidably. "Creep" is a term that has to do with trigger travel prior to the trigger break. In the ideal single-action type trigger, there is no trigger travel at all before the break. Any trigger travel before the break is termed "creep".

Anyway, some people dislike Kahr triggers because they feel long and they are hard to "stage". The trigger pull weight is pretty constant all the way through the pull. A lot of people want to feel a takeup, some easily discernible increase in trigger pull weight right before the break and then a clean break. Kahr triggers tend to pull all the way through smoothly without a lot of buildup to the break.

Also, people who want to shoot from the reset will probably find Kahr triggers irritating. The reset isn't super-distinct, and anyway, you have to pretty much release the trigger completely before it resets.

I highly recommend that you try to handle one if they interest you. It is certainly true that the triggers are sort of unusual, but that doesn't mean they're bad triggers or difficult to shoot well. You might really like how they work. Or you might hate them. Either way, actually getting your hands on one is about the only way to be sure.
Thank you, I think that rules out the kahr for me. I just don’t want to go that low on trigger weight.
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Old October 17, 2020, 11:46 PM   #31
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HK P2000 and P2000sk come to mind.

Some of the options mentioned seem to me more what I would expect for a personal ccw. If you’re envisioning needing to use this to stop a mass shooter at a church setting, I personally would want more than a PPK.


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Old October 18, 2020, 12:36 AM   #32
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Good Lord. (Literally). This is a dog chasing it’s tail debate.

A small gun will be harder to shoot with accuracy.

Some rounds will over penetrate. Some won’t have enough energy to shut off a bad guy.

I would go with a compact 1911. It has a real trigger that you can hit with. And an off switch to make it safe. Either in .45 ACP with a good hollow point.

Or, a Springfield EMP 4 in 9mm. With an off switch. Again, with a fast expanding hollow point.

But. That’s me.

A 4” S&W Combat Masterpiece would work well.

It really comes down to what you shoot well.

I’m not a big fan of the current crop of cocked and unlocked striker fired guns without an off switch. But, they generally have good triggers.
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Old October 18, 2020, 06:34 AM   #33
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10MM Glock 20, a dot sight, and dress for success.
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Old October 18, 2020, 06:39 AM   #34
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I like the inherent safety of DA/SA for carry. As more guys have discovered AIWB, there seems to be renewed interest in hammer feedback. Jokes aside, I do feel better holstering with my thumb on the hammer.

Unfortunately, the revolution in polymer subcompacts hasn't given us much in the way of DA/SA. As much as I like the Sig P239 or some of the classic metal-framed choices in .380; they still feel heavy versus modern carry guns like the Shield, PPS, or P365. If I had to pick from that category, I'd skip the .380 guns and go with the P239. It's a much nicer gun with respect to some of your requirements. It sounds like anything larger might be off the table here.

In the new class of polymer subcompacts, the Springfield XDE might be the only option. I've avoided it because I have strong feelings about manual safety switches on carry guns. In your case though, that could be a benefit. It's at least worth trying to handle one and see how it feels.

As far as penetration, even lighter calibers like .380 can punch right through walls, doors, pews, couches, etc. They can go through bad guys too. The degree to which you can minimize that by going down in power feels marginal. In fact, you can get the opposite effect as hollow-point expansion becomes less reliable at lower velocities.
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Old October 18, 2020, 07:08 AM   #35
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Ruger Lc9s with the safety and a Galco King Tuck holster. Use the optional pinky extension on the mag and carry an extra mag as well. 9mm, ultra reliable, accurate, very concealable, and with a rubber grip sleeve recoil is not bad. While the trigger is a tad light it’s a long enough pull that coupled with the manual safety it’s not an issue and in fact helps a lot with accuracy. The most important thing with all these smaller handguns is regular practice since they are a little harder to maintain accuracy with than a full size gun. Minimum to me would be a box of ammo twice a month, so 100 rounds per month.
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Old October 18, 2020, 07:41 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by CAPMJUSTICE View Post
Just looked this one up, And it seems great. Maybe exactly what I’m looking for! My only concern is how new it is. Do you know if there are any issues? Most new designs have them till they get them worked out. Springfield isn’t a typical da/sa manufacturer to my limited knowledge
No issues that I'm aware of. I've had mine for 3 years and have never had a failure of any kind. Have read similar reports on the Springfield XD Forum.
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Old October 18, 2020, 09:45 AM   #37
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I have and carry an LC9s, thumb safety version. It is compact and reliable, accurate by pocket pistol standards, but at the bottom edge of what the OP needs.

I had not thought of the XDe but it may be the most applicable of the current crop. There is the dinky 3.3" gun and the 4.5" model which is about the size of my elderly Commander but with "modern" DA/SA and plastic construction.
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Old October 18, 2020, 09:57 AM   #38
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The Federal Air Marshals work in the exact environment you describe.

They carried Sigs in 357 SIG for a very long time.

I usually carry appendix. And, I carry a P239 DAK in 357. As others have alluded to, that longer trigger stroke and exposed hammer gives a margin of safety.

Just a thought.
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Old October 18, 2020, 10:52 AM   #39
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You haven't had much dealings with church internal politics, have you?
Yeah, thank gawd I have never had to deal with that. HOA & management politics is more than enough. The thing is, I wonder how the elders would feel about security trying to shoot a bad guy with a small concealable pistol and nailed someone else? If one is gonna do security work, use the right tools. Otherwise, don't volunteer for a no winner.
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Old October 18, 2020, 12:14 PM   #40
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If you're taking a survey as to which gun you should use to prevent a mass murder in a church you've already got a huge problem.
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Old October 18, 2020, 12:48 PM   #41
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Posting as a moderator, I am reminding everyone that CAPMJUSTICE asked a specific question, and set out specific criteria. I'm sure you all want to be helpful but, since he didn't create the prerequisites, there is nothing constructive to be gained by suggesting that he do something other than what the pastor has called for. So let's not have any more of such discussion. If you don't have something constructive to post that's in line with the established parameters ... save your thoughts for a discussion where they'll fit.

Posting as a forum member, I'll add that those who have not been involved in church politics should consider their words carefully when posting, because you're getting into unknown territory. I have had exposure to church politics. My father was a deacon for many years in the church in which I grew up. More recently, I was involved in the pastor search committee when our minister retired and we needed to find a replacement. And a good friend has been deeply involved in a mostly futile effort to get a security team up and running at the church he and his family attend.

On the surface, the attitude of many church governing bodies appears to be hypocrisy -- they want a security team for "protection," but they don't want guns. If you dig deeper, I think what you discover is that it's not hypocrisy, it's deeply ingrained ignorance coupled with magical thinking. There is a healthy dose of "It can't happen here, we're good people." The recent rash of shootings in churches and synagogues proves that (as a Rabbi said in the title of his book several years ago) sometimes bad things happen to good people. Comparing the results of the two heavily reported church shootings in Texas, the obvious conclusion is that armed, trained security is more effective than reliance on magic.

However, far too many members of the clergy and members of church governing board are still "squishy" on the notion of letting parishioners know there are guns in the church. So it's hardly a surprise to me that CAP's pastor requested that any firearm remain concealed. I would expect that. The subject never came up at the church my late wife and I attended. It didn't come up because I didn't raise it -- I carried, but I didn't even tell my wife. I think she would have been shocked if I had told her. (Disclaimer: since shortly after her death a few years ago I stopped going. Church was one of our "together" activities, and attending without her was too painful.)

My point is, do not discount the effect of church politics. It often doesn't make sense, but "Their house, their rules." My friend's pastor is the same as CAP's -- my friend has made it clear that his pastor doesn't want to see any guns, doesn't want the parishioners to know if/when there are guns in the church, and isn't willing for the church to underwrite any training for a security team. But ... he wants a security team.

That's what I call magical thinking. This leaves my friend feeling like he has been thrown under the bus. He knows what's needed, and he's not allowed to do it.

CAPMJUSTICE is between a rock and a hard place here. We should try to help him by responding thoughtfully to his question, not by suggesting that he try to go up against his pastor or ignore the pastor's clear criteria.
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Old October 18, 2020, 01:01 PM   #42
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Best pistol for childrens church security

I don’t think questioning how large of a pistol is concealable is going against the OP’s criteria. I can understand the firearm needs to be concealed, that’s a critical part of that criteria. I don’t know that this means the largest pistol the OP can use is a PPK or similar. The church shooting in Texas in 2019 that was stopped by an armed parishioner who was the head of their security detail was with, to my knowledge, a SIG P229. Somehow he managed to remain at least concealed enough for his setting. https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/lo...a-c25bf559c20e

While I can also appreciate some background about church politics, I don’t really see it as essential to this post. The question is on a concealed firearm. If we want to keep it to the OP’s question then backgrounds about what church politics might or might not be really don’t matter. Otherwise we should move this to the tactics forum, IMO. For now I think saying that concealment is a firm requirement is good enough. It’s up to the OP to decide what is or isn’t concealable for him.


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Old October 18, 2020, 01:17 PM   #43
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Best pistol for childrens church security

Beretta 84, 85

As a member of a church safety team I take my responsibility seriously (I’m stationed in children’s wing) as well as my choice of firearm, my choice is a M&P9C.

Ignorance about firearms can be cured with education but stubbornness and misguided righteousness can only be cured with prayer, so pray for your church leaders and try to educate them as well.


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Old October 18, 2020, 01:35 PM   #44
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discrete carry

When I MUST be non-printing, I carry my Walther PP ion .32acp.
It's very flat in profile and as others have mentioned, a safe gun and dependable in both SA/DA; a proven weapon with great features.
Mine is circa 1941.
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Old October 18, 2020, 01:53 PM   #45
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Wow, guy asks for advice regarding a small, easy-to-conceal pistol chambered in a cartridge that is unlikely to overpenetrate, and now we've got folks recommending full-sized pistols chambered in .357 SIG and 10mm Auto with red dot sights...

Oh well, at least nobody has suggested that he attempt to carry an MP5, AR Pistol, or a PGO Scattergun beneath a trench coat or something...YET.

Honestly guys, it's for Church Security, he's not an Air Marshall, Secret Service, or S.W.A.T. Yes, Church shootings are a thing, and yes, he ought to be prepared, but the Pastor has already told him to carry something highly concealable so as to not frighten the congregation, and you ought to respect that.

Personally, I carry a SW40VE, a Ruger LCP, and a Cold Steel Ti-Lite VI with a couple of spare magazines everywhere I go, Church included, but if the Father were to ask me to carry less, then I would, and I would have no problem carrying my Walther PPK/S because I carried it for years, shoot it accurately, and it has never let me down. Plus, a .380 ACP JHP absolutely will not overpenetrate, and modern bullets like XTPs expand reliably while still penetrating deep enough to meet FBI/IWBA Specifications, so they will drop a bad guy if you do your part.

@CAPMJUSTICE Bless you for keeping the Pastor's wishes and for having enough faith in the Lord that you don't allow fear to drive you to disrespect his wishes. As previously stated, I think that anything in the Walther PP Series would make for an excellent choice. Folks these days doubt the effectiveness of .380 ACP, but keep in mind that the Walther PP, PPK, and even the PPK/S (among other variations and derivatives of the design) has served Law Enforcement and Military Organizations around the world for decades, so if they weren't relable, effective, or efficient, nobody would have issued them, and most of those were chambered in .32 ACP.

Unfortunately, .380 ACP has a poor reputation here in the United States thanks to the fact that from the 1970s up until about 2010, it was domestically downloaded out of concern for all of the cheaply-made potmetal Ring of Fire Guns floating around on the civilian market, and the Walther PP Series has an undeserved reputation for unreliability because it was designed with hotter full-spec loads and thus would choke on the aforementioned downloaded domestic .380 ACP loads of the time. However, times have changed, so now .380 ACP is no longer loaded for Saturday Night Specials and the Walther PP runs fantastically on everything from target loads to JHP. Or at least my particular PPK/S which was actually manufactured under license by Smith & Wesson does, but it features an improved feed ramp design which is also present in the modern American-Made Walther Arms PPK/S out of Arkansas.
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Old October 18, 2020, 03:51 PM   #46
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For the record, let's recap the specific requirements that CAPMJUSTICE requested input on:

1. SAFETY, no light triggers, I'm looking for DOA OR DA/SA

2. CALIBER THAT IS ACCURATE AND WONT OVERPENETRATE, a caliber with low recoil for accuracy and penetration that is "just" good enough while avoiding overpenetration.

3.MAXIMIZING CONCEALABILITY WHILE STILL HAVING A FULL GRIP, I dont want to scare away parents because I printed too much but I want a full grip for maximized accuracy, so no pocket pistols where the pinky hangs off and the sights are terrible

Quote:
I’m trained in full size da/sa combat pistols but maximizing concealment was a request of the pastor.
Not "Sort of concealed," not "Well, we all know that's a gun but we can't see it" concealed -- maximizing concealment is one of the criteria. He has already stated that he is accustomed to full-size semi-autos and he's looking for something smaller.

Quote:
My pastors literal words were “ look I support this but we need to make sure someone could go to church here for 20 years and never know there were guns in the building “
Once again I will ask nicely that, rather than going off in other directions or making derogatory comments about the OP's qualifications, if you don't have something constructive to offer, keep your fingers off the keyboard.

- - - - - - -
Another suggestion, and one that has been around for awhile: Bersa Thunder 380. DA/SA, .380, and can be had in either a single stack version or a double stack version.

https://bersa.eagleimportsinc.com/be...thunder-series
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Old October 18, 2020, 04:27 PM   #47
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I completely understand the frustration guys. I’m a “big gun” fan. If it were up to me I’d have my AR 10 readily available in all situations. I’m asking for help because these limitations aren’t natural for me. I’m trying to get the most out of the limitations I’m forced with. Personally if these limitations are the only way these kids will be protected, I have to try. It’s not in me to say “if I can’t carry a “real gun” I’m not doing it”. And I promise you once I narrow down the pistol choice, I’m going to train my butt off to be as accurate as possible, to make the most out of the limited capabilities of the pistol that meets these requirements
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Old October 18, 2020, 04:40 PM   #48
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A 4” S&W Combat Masterpiece would work well.
I agree. I carried a 4" Security Six at church for a while (basically the same gun but bulkier and heavier) on my belt and my wife didn't even know. If it printed at all, I don't think it did but I might be fooling myself, the bulge didn't look like a gun. A good belt is almost as important as the choice of gun.
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Old October 18, 2020, 04:41 PM   #49
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If you feel comfortable with your skills with the larger gun, maybe you should put the effort into the "hiding the gun" part. Its not all that hard to do, you just need to figure out what works best for you.

I took this while discussing this very sort of things on another board. I dont normally carry this way, and this was taken with no prep or effort made (as you can easily see support items in the pic), other than just put the shirt on and tuck it in. If you look to the right of my belt buckle by the first loop, you can see a clip. Behind that clip, is my Glock 17.



Normal summer wear here, and from what Ive seen a a number of the churches around here, not all that informal for church...





And theres always "deep" concealment. Glock 26 is as small as I go anymore. They shoot very much like a full sized gun, and can come real close to being one, with a simple mag change....



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Old October 18, 2020, 04:52 PM   #50
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Best pistol for childrens church security

^thank you, this is where I’m coming from.

I totally get OP that you have limitations you have to work in. Those limitations are, as I can tell from your own posts, that this firearm can’t be discernible to other church goers. Fair enough. There are a lot of pistols in the world between a full-size DA/SA combat pistol that you are familiar with and small single stack 380s. That’s my only point. There are single stacks like the Springfield Armory XDe and SIG P239 and subcompacts like the Beretta PX4 subcompact, CZ Rami, HK P2000sk/P30sk, etc. Even some of the older S&W third generation pistols fit the bill. All of those are pretty small options that you can carry concealed and are DA/SA (some with additional safeties too).

If you want to carry a PPK, by all means go for it. I have no doubt that you’ll train with it. I do think there are other options that allow a full grip on the pistol (as you requested) and fit in with your experience of full-size DA/SA pistols so you don’t have to retrain from what you’re used it. Concealment isn’t just about the size of the pistol. Clothing and holster choice are big factors as well, as AK demonstrates.


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