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Old October 13, 2020, 10:42 PM   #51
Metal god
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It's interesting that the "military features" only apply to semi auto rifles and not bolt actions or single shots. Like, I guess a bayonet on an M1903 is fine, but put it on an AR and that's crossing a line.
Correct , what appears to be the excepted wording by the anti's is . ( a semi automatic centerfire rifle with a detachable magazine ) and any one of these features - pistol grip , flash hider , forward grip , barrel shroud ?? and others .

EDIT , this part deleted
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Old October 14, 2020, 04:08 PM   #52
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Mossberg Shockwave owners. Get ready!
Ready for what? Mossberg did their due diligence, unlike Q, and got the ATF to sign off on their product. https://www.mossberg.com/wp-content/...ATF-3-2-17.pdf
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Old October 15, 2020, 12:57 AM   #53
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Ready for what? Mossberg did their due diligence, unlike Q, and got the ATF to sign off on their product.
...so did Slidefire, and now their products are non-registrable "machine guns."
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Old October 15, 2020, 02:11 AM   #54
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Ready for what?

I'd say be ready for the ATF to change their mind about what is, and isn't a regulated item.

And not just Shockwave owners, all of us. Even if you don't have the affected item, we are all affected by their ability to arbitrarily change rulings, definitions and enforcement.

This is NOT A NEW THING, people...

If you have a pistol with a brace on it, be prepared for that brace to be declared a stock, and as a stock, it becomes and NFA item.

It may happen tomorrow, or next week or 6 years from now, or it may never happen, but be prepared IF it does.

Because under the current system as allowed to operate they can change their minds any time, and as often as they feel like, or so it seems, to me.
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Old October 15, 2020, 03:06 AM   #55
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Ready for what?

I'd say be ready for the ATF to change their mind about what is, and isn't a regulated item.

And not just Shockwave owners, all of us. Even if you don't have the affected item, we are all affected by their ability to arbitrarily change rulings, definitions and enforcement.

This is NOT A NEW THING, people...

If you have a pistol with a brace on it, be prepared for that brace to be declared a stock, and as a stock, it becomes and NFA item.

It may happen tomorrow, or next week or 6 years from now, or it may never happen, but be prepared IF it does.

Because under the current system as allowed to operate they can change their minds any time, and as often as they feel like, or so it seems, to me.
Which is why the legality of allowing the ATF to declare bump stocks as machine guns is such a huge deal because if the ATF can declare a semi automatic gun a machine gun due to a device that makes it shoot faster, then they can declare all semi automatic guns as readily convertible machine guns.

Nobody listen to me tho, I was saying it would be better to have the then REPUBLICAN CONTROLLED CONGRESS pass a law adding them to the NFA (and in return removing suppressors) so the ATF wouldn't be given authority to make decisions because they can and will making rulings that greatly restrict gun rights.
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Old October 15, 2020, 10:34 AM   #56
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...so did Slidefire, and now their products are non-registrable "machine guns."
And that wasn't by the ATF, was it. That was by bipartisan political hacks and President Trump.

Quote:
Ready for what?

I'd say be ready for the ATF to change their mind about what is, and isn't a regulated item.

And not just Shockwave owners, all of us. Even if you don't have the affected item, we are all affected by their ability to arbitrarily change rulings, definitions and enforcement.

This is NOT A NEW THING, people...
No, it isn't a new thing. However, the Mossberg example was poor because UNLIKE Q, Mossberg did do their due diligence and made sure things were legal. Q just went into production and sales with a product not meeting ATF specs.

This isn't a matter of the ATF changing their mind. This is a matter of Q cutting corners and screwing customers as a result.
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Old October 15, 2020, 01:32 PM   #57
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Double Naught, the ATF changed their interpretation under pressure from the President. They still did it.

It is not just a matter of getting the ATF's OK. They can and do change their opinions without us having recourse or advanced notice. This is particularly problematic when their flip-flop can suddenly put us at risk of numerous 10 year prison sentences for something we were told was perfectly legal!
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Old October 15, 2020, 02:27 PM   #58
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Good correction on Trump. Yep, they may. There is no evidence as of yet that this has happened on Q's brace. The ATF isn't after all braces, right? The did go after all bump stocks, however, but they aren't going after all braces.
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Old October 15, 2020, 03:16 PM   #59
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Has anybody heard any updates on this I keep seeing rumblings everywhere that the ATF is backing off , is that accurate ?
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Old October 15, 2020, 07:12 PM   #60
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There an article from the Washington examiner I read via citizen free press today that states a "delay", 60 days. No telling what's next though.
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Old October 16, 2020, 03:10 AM   #61
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a "delay", 60 days. No telling what's next though.
What's next is the election, and the administration of the ATF seeing who wins so they will know which way to jump to CYA on this matter.
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Old October 16, 2020, 05:53 AM   #62
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Yep! ^^^^
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Old October 16, 2020, 06:15 AM   #63
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What's next is the election, and the administration of the ATF seeing who wins so they will know which way to jump to CYA on this matter.
We have a winner!
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Old October 16, 2020, 08:07 AM   #64
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I saw a response from Q co. that they will not play that game and will not resume making the Honey Badger.
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Old October 16, 2020, 01:00 PM   #65
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I saw a response from Q co. that they will not play that game and will not resume making the Honey Badger.
One wonders how much of that is "we're not going to play the game" and how much is "oh crap we're gonna get busted!!" so they take what they've already made and bail out of the market...

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Old October 17, 2020, 08:07 PM   #66
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One wonders how much of that is "we're not going to play the game" and how much is "oh crap we're gonna get busted!!" so they take what they've already made and bail out of the market...
I think it's more they don't want to sink the capital into a fight that may or may not win since they have very little support from the big legal heavyweights.
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Old October 17, 2020, 09:07 PM   #67
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I need to buy one of these things asap. It's got my favorite safety's name on it.
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Old October 19, 2020, 09:50 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
Ready for what? Mossberg did their due diligence
The ATF to reverse course and call it a NFA regulated weapon. That BATFE letter was a rather "liberal" interpretation of the regulation IMHO.

What is interesting to me about this board I guess is the deafening silence about what Biden will try to do and how the SCOTUS will come into play. Seems to me like the elephant in the room but maybe that's being moderated out?
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Old October 19, 2020, 10:07 AM   #69
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The ATF to reverse course and call it a NFA regulated weapon. That BATFE letter was a rather "liberal" interpretation of the regulation IMHO.
Again, Q did not do their due diligence like Mossberg. They are now backtracking and submitting other products and trying to smooth things out with the use of different arm brace stocks that have been approved. Q knows they screwed up and got caught.

All this business about how they could "reverse their decision" has never been in question. For that matter, they may choose to interpret any of the laws in a different manner, not just arm braces and shotgun 'firearms' and cause problems for the rest of us gun owners. Nobody seems to concerned about that...speaking of elephants in the room.
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Old October 19, 2020, 11:02 AM   #70
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Q shouldn't have to do their "due diligence" as has been stated. They used a brace that was constructed in a similar fashion to a brace that had a letter from the ATF. Logic (not reality, I know) should dictate that -- without set rules and guidance from the ATF -- a similar construction should fall into the same category as the approved stock. Complaints from the ATF were minor cosmetic differences that did nothing to change the actual function of the brace (smaller "ears" to wrap around the forearm) and a complete misapplication of their own regulation that was administrative in origin (length of pull less than 35.5" measured from the rearmost portion of the trigger straight back to the same plane as the end of the stock). The ATF has been tight lipped and refuses to come up with a set of specifications so to allow a company to function and invest significant capital into a product then pull the rug from under them is at best merely unfair and at worst malicious and possibly illegal overreach (which is the ATF as an entity, in my opinion, but the courts have yet to agree with this sentiment and likely never will).

Please see Colion's interview with SD Tactical over the arm brace and the ATF.
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Old October 19, 2020, 11:58 AM   #71
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Those are good points weedwacker but I’d like to point out that the anti’s new/old approach is to go after cosmetics as a prohibiting factor . Need not look any further then “assault rifle “ definitions . They include but are not limited to cosmetic features that have zero to do with the fundamentals of the firearm . With or with out these cosmetic features the firearms still operate the same . In many ways those same cosmetic features that some how turn a regular firearm into an assault rifle actually help the firearm be operated more safely .

I know by changing the configuration of my semi automatic center fire rifle from there definition of an assault rifle to one that is not . My rifle is now less safe because I no longer can easily reach the safety as originally designed .

This type of thing is what often happens when people try to fix things they don’t understand. They make things worse only to then need another regulation to fix the problem they created .
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Old October 19, 2020, 02:53 PM   #72
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What is interesting to me about this board I guess is the deafening silence about what Biden will try to do and how the SCOTUS will come into play. Seems to me like the elephant in the room but maybe that's being moderated out?
Pure political discussion is not allowed in L&CR forum, or really in any of the others where posts must be gun-related.

it is not being "moderated out" here, simply because its not being done here, though if it is, it would be. And infractions for rule violations would result.

Lots and lots of other places on the internet for that discussion.

The other point is that discussing what Biden (or Trump, or the Easter Bunney) MIGHT do if elected is just so much pure speculation, and a waste of bandwidth. They're all on record with what they SAY they will do. What they actually do is another matter.

Quote:
... I’d like to point out that the anti’s new/old approach is to go after cosmetics as a prohibiting factor . Need not look any further then “assault rifle “ definitions . They include but are not limited to cosmetic features that have zero to do with the fundamentals of the firearm . With or with out these cosmetic features the firearms still operate the same . ..
I would point out that SOME of the anti-gunners have "wised up" in that regard, look for them to bring their "new" definition to an election near you in the future...

The "new" definition I'm referring to is the "old" definition, of semi-automatic. As of the summer of 2019, EVERY semi automatic rifle in the state of Washington was legally redefined as a "semi automatic assault rifle"
The law doing this used the simple base defintion of semi auto, "uses the energy of the fired round to reload the action" NO attempt was made to name or list cosmetic features at all.

SO, ALL semi auto rifles are now "semi automatic assault rifles" no matter what features they have, or don't have.

Fixed magazine .22s are covered. Your Rem 742 deer gun is covered, along with the more usual "evil" looking guns like ARs and AKs. EVERY SINGLE SEMI AUTO RIFLE is now an "assault rifle" under that law.

The law is being challenged in court, due to other worse provisions in it, but so far, no ruling...

Oh, and just FYI, that law was DEFEATED several times in the legislature. It got passed by voter initiative and the under educated and lied to people in the I-5 corridor made it law for the entire state...
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Old October 19, 2020, 03:02 PM   #73
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I am curious how Amy Coney Barrett looks at those types of things ? She says she likes to rule based on the text , While emphasizing she gives deference to duly elected legislatures because they are representing those that put ghem in office and the wording of the laws they produce . I have to assume based on all that , that she also takes into consideration The will of the voters themselves and what they vote into law

My thinking is that you have to start with the original text of the constitution then see if the legislature or the people themselves are keeping with that wording , at least I hope
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Old October 20, 2020, 11:26 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP
Pure political discussion is not allowed in L&CR forum, or really in any of the others where posts must be gun-related.
But what I am talking about IS gun related. Quite so.

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Originally Posted by 44 AMP
The other point is that discussing what Biden (or Trump, or the Easter Bunney) MIGHT do if elected is just so much pure speculation, and a waste of bandwidth.
I would suggest important speculation. Whistling past the graveyard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP
What they actually do is another matter.
My point exactly so looking at those scenarios might make sense? But hey it's your board yet I think you're being too restrictive. I get you don't want a bunch of extraneous non-gun related vitriol on the board but discussing what may happen in a Biden Dem controlled Congress regarding guns might make sense?
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Old October 20, 2020, 11:46 AM   #75
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I get you don't want a bunch of extraneous non-gun related vitriol on the board but discussing what may happen in a Biden Dem controlled Congress regarding guns might make sense?
Why?

That's a serious question. As 44 AMP pointed out, it's all speculation. We can speculate 'til the cows come home, but we can't respond to speculation, except with more speculation. We can't mobilize to fight speculation. I have enough real problems on my plate every day of the week -- I don't need to speculate about what a Biden-Harris administration may try to do.

It's pretty much a given that it will be anti-gun. But we know that, so that's enough to inform who we vote for to be the next president. Beyond that, I see no value whatsoever in trying to guess what they might do if elected. "The devil is in the details." Until they get elected and put forth some proposed legislation, there's nothing more to discuss.

IMHO. YMMV.
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