|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
August 21, 2011, 11:58 AM | #76 |
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: June 29, 2000
Location: Rupert, Idaho
Posts: 9,660
|
Very well said. Both Bart and Nordeste have slammed that proverbial nail home.
I think we all pride ourselves in being more than just an animal. Yet there is one primal instinct that is at the core of our being. That is the instinct to survive - self preservation. At the founding of the U.S. we encapsulated that instinct as the natural right to life. John Locke looked upon this as the ultimately property right. The right to own our own selves. There is something incredibly wrong, when a (man-made) society says that your life is worthless. Strong statement? Hardly. When any society takes away the means to preserve life; when that society punishes the victim, society is saying you are in fact, worthless. |
August 21, 2011, 01:09 PM | #77 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 20, 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 10,446
|
Look at it from a historical perspective: The U.S. Constitution draws heavily on English Common Law. The founders of the U.S. government were not so much unhappy with the British parlimentary system (though they obviously did not view it as perfect since they set up a different system) but more because they felt they were not afforded the rights to which they were entitled as British citizens since they had no representation in Parliment and as such could be subjected to laws without recourse unlike British citizens living in England.
Both the U.S. and British systems of Government are set up the way they are in order to provide safeguards against tyranny. This has been the case dating back to the Magna Carta when British monarchs lost absolute power. By definition, a tyrant is one who exercises absolute power in a brutal or oppressive manner. There is no power more absolute than the power of life and death. The reason that U.S. citizens are guaranteed the right to arms is because the ability to defend one's own life is the final safeguard against tyranny. If the people no longer have the ability to defend their own lives, life being the most basic of all human rights, then liberty has completely failed and tyranny now reigns. Now, when the word tyranny or tyrant is used, most people automatically think of a monarch or dictator like Nero, Hitler, Franco, Stalin, or Mao or perhaps an oppressive government such as the Taliban or Soviet Kremlin. While such figures and entities do certainly qualify as tyrannical, they are not alone in that definition. When a person is unable to defend his or her own life against a violent criminal, that criminal holds the power of life and death over that person and may exercise that power in a brutal of oppressive manner. By definition, a violent criminal becomes a tyrant under such circumstances. Personally, I believe that freedom from tyranny, and thus the right to self-defense, transcends one's nation of citizenship and represents a fundamental and inalienable human right. By enacting such Draconian gun-control laws, I feel that the British Government has placed its citizens at an unacceptably high risk of being subjected to tyranny either through an oppressive government or, as recent events have shown, violent criminals. |
August 22, 2011, 12:41 AM | #78 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 2, 2010
Location: Not far enough from Chicago
Posts: 394
|
Quote:
A stun gun with a wire and prongs is typically a one shot weapon. If the woman misses? Oh well, rape city. If she does happen to connect the weapon isn't guaranteed to have any effect. Heavy clothing and type of clothing worn by the attacker can render the weapon useless. Rape city once again. Also...Here in the states it's harder for a civilian to get their hands on an extended range taser. For instance at Taser.com they will sell fifteen foot guns while law enforcement get, I believe, twenty one foot guns. Fifteen feet is too damn close. Or let me guess. A threat can't exist at fifteen feet? As for a taser or stun gun being "not risky of killing others in the process"...training, training, TRAINING. Then more practice on top of that. How is a taser or stun gun easier to use? P.S. I find taser/stun gun arguments to be among the weakest. Edit: Oops my mistake. At Taser.com LE guns can have up to thirty five feet. More than double what they would sell to a civilian. |
|
August 22, 2011, 12:53 AM | #79 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 2, 2010
Location: Not far enough from Chicago
Posts: 394
|
Quote:
Your logic confuses me. You don't feel safe in the UK or Greece if there are lots of guns but in the US you wouldn't feel safe unless you had one? Because the US is completely void of dangerous and deprived areas that are full of hot-heads, right...? |
|
August 22, 2011, 07:27 AM | #80 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 4, 2009
Location: Frozen Tundra
Posts: 2,414
|
I think in part it boils down to European governments have had a long history of enjoying much greater levels of power over its citizens than what the U.S. government was ever supposed to have over its citizens.
It seems clear to me European governments in between the lines are telling their subject they will not and cannot be trusted and the state will make decisions for them and most of the peoples of Europe are apparently fine with it... (Not to be insulting but my observation as I see it). History is littered with states that felt they had the power to rule much of the lives of its citizenry and in the end at some point they citizenry pays a high price in blood to restore freedoms and the political powers usually end up in a "off with their heads" moment. Such as it has happened in the past it will happen in the future as none of our nations seem to learn very much from the past...
__________________
Molon Labe |
August 22, 2011, 07:50 AM | #81 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 28, 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,231
|
The founding fathers did not trust any form of government over a period of time. Any government over a period of time could become repressive because some persons in the government would have staying in power as the primary interest.
The founding fathers knew that free speech is vital to protect the "natural" rights of citizens. That the citizens must be enabled to protect that right and that they were also entitled to protect themselves from harm. That is why the Bill of Rights were put into the Constitution. They are not the government's to give or take.
__________________
Have a nice day at the range NRA Life Member |
August 22, 2011, 09:20 AM | #82 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 14, 2007
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 797
|
Follow the money - as history
Medieval Europe, particularly England, France, and Spain, sent forces off to crusade against various non-believers and save the holy land. Money was needed to fund these adventures and assorted taxes were levied on the middle and low classes. Revolts became common after the first few crusades and villages revolted. First victims of revolt were, obviously, tax collectors. Second in line were lawyers. Lastly came the men-at-arms who were tougher to revolt against.
From this sprang decrees and laws that essentially disarmed non-military people but not those in power. Less armament meant less resistance by the non-elite leading to more effective political control of the populace. Many European countries have experienced forms of disarmament but hardly ever a long term decrease in violence. |
August 22, 2011, 09:51 AM | #83 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 5, 2010
Location: Bloomington, Indiana
Posts: 850
|
I completely agree with my American peers here; and so will not re-iterate what they've already claimed. But here is some actual evidence to support the practical claims that more honest people who own powerful and deadly weapons for the purposes of self defense has a desirable effect on crime.
~LT
__________________
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ- Greek:"Come and take them..." Meaning: Here we peaceably stand as armed and free men, willing to defend that peace, and ready to make war upon anyone who threatens that freedom. |
August 22, 2011, 10:35 AM | #84 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 17, 2009
Posts: 220
|
LordTio - great chart, I'm going to have to use that one!
|
August 22, 2011, 10:41 AM | #85 | |
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Quote:
Clearly that data shows that increasing the numbers of guns in the hands of private citizens does not lead to an increase in crime, and that crime can decrease even when the numbers of gun in private hands increases. But it doesn't necessarily show that, "...more honest people who own powerful and deadly weapons for the purposes of self defense has a desirable effect on crime...." Not having an undesirable effect on crime rate is not the same as having a desirable effect on crime rate. Correlation does not prove causation. There are probably many reasons for the reduction in crime over the last couple of decades. In NYC, beginning in 1990, the crime rate dropped precipitously. Murders were reduced by two-third, felonies fell by 50%; and by 2000, felonies on the subways had declined 75% (The Tipping Point, Malcolm Gladwell, Back Bay Books, 2002, pg. 137). The RKBA and liberalized right to carry laws certainly had nothing to do with that. I have no doubt that liberalized gun laws and an increased willingness for people to take responsibility for their own safety is one factor in the Nationwide declining crime rate. But it's still only, at best, one factor, and it's very tough to prove. What the data does clearly demonstrate is that right to carry laws and increasing the numbers of guns in private hands have not led to the bloodbaths that the anti-gun crowd so often predicts. But we do have to be careful about making claims that we can't substantiate. When we do, it erodes our credibility. What we can substantiate by collecting data on successful defensive gun use, especially published accounts, is that there are many ordinary people who have been able to avoid becoming victims of violent crime because they did have guns. |
|
August 22, 2011, 04:40 PM | #86 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 17, 2007
Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO
Posts: 5,970
|
Ya know, I've re-read this thread and have thought about it for a couple days.
We've had a good discussion here and I Thank British Bobby for opening the thread although he has not been back to further answer questions or discuss his opinions. Especially his opinions that the citizens in the UK should not be entitled or somehow are not deserving of the basic right to self preservation. He could not substantiate his opinions of why he feels gun laws in the US are as they are with any sort of financial proof. IMO, this thread was intended as no more than a 'drive-by' thread by the OP. British Bobby, I hope you at least come back and re-read this thread and understand that not only do a few of your own countrymen not agree with your opinions but since you are a LE officer and support the innocent citizens of your country not being armed, you too bear the burden of having the blood of every innocent victim in the UK on your hands. I also hope you think about that at the next grotesque crime scene your at where the innocent victim/victims may have had a chance to survive had they been armed. Also think that the innocent victims laying there, could have been someone close to you. Just remember, your support in the anti-gun movement in your country has helped in the scene you're witnessing. If you want to know the reason the gun laws are as they are in this country, its because the citizens here have the right to defend themselves and will never stop fighting those with your opinions and attitude. Maybe its time for you to re-examine your morals you spoke of earlier. Last edited by shortwave; August 22, 2011 at 04:47 PM. |
August 22, 2011, 05:00 PM | #87 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 20, 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 10,446
|
Quote:
A good example of the differences between English Common Law and that of other European countries is the presumption of guilt under the Napoleonic Code (several European nations base their law on Napoleonic Code). Under that system, the accused is presumed to be guilty until he or she can prove innocence rather than the other way around. This is quite repressive because proving a negative is much more difficult than proving a positive. Last edited by Webleymkv; August 22, 2011 at 05:08 PM. |
|
August 22, 2011, 05:12 PM | #88 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 28, 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,231
|
The only problem with the chart in Lord Tio's post is that all it says is that gun ownership went up and violent crime went down. There is still no causal relationship established between firearm ownership and crime..
It does not include such factors as increased or decreased enforcment of laws by law enforcment which also causes violent crime to decrease. Probably other factors that caused crime to decrease as well. Violent crime is increasing in some places while gun ownership is also going up. If I use the argument above now I could flip flop it and say that crime is increasing because of the increase in private firearm ownership.
__________________
Have a nice day at the range NRA Life Member |
August 22, 2011, 05:17 PM | #89 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 12, 2009
Location: Athens, Georgia
Posts: 2,526
|
Welcome to TFL, British Bobby
Quote:
link to pdf of European crime rates Link to gun ownership rates I'm not claiming that more guns causes less crime but to claim the opposite certainly isn't true. Last edited by 2damnold4this; August 22, 2011 at 05:31 PM. |
|
August 23, 2011, 08:45 AM | #90 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: March 5, 2010
Location: Bloomington, Indiana
Posts: 850
|
I'd just like to quote myself for a moment:
Quote:
Quote:
If you ask me, with the references it quotes and the numbers it shows, it's at least worth examining and investigating. Anyone who tells you different is biased or doesn't understand statistics. ~LT
__________________
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ- Greek:"Come and take them..." Meaning: Here we peaceably stand as armed and free men, willing to defend that peace, and ready to make war upon anyone who threatens that freedom. |
||
August 23, 2011, 09:27 AM | #91 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 11, 2007
Location: "State of Discombobulation"
Posts: 1,333
|
I've had this conversation before with many subjects of the British Commonwealth.
To me it's best summed up as the subjects want someone to do for them that which they are unable or unwilling, ie; defend self. I desire nothing from my government that I am unable to obtain or secure for myself. Therefore I want as little intrusion by the government in to my daily life as possible and desire to be left alone to succeed or fail. That can, and has often required a firearm by various people in the past and will again in the future. My impression of the subjects of the Commonwealth is one of denial and lack of responsibility for self. Denial of their manhood and a collective desire to let someone else have the responsibility for the decisions one makes. I realize that may be offensive to some of the subject of the Commonwealth, but it is my impression. Government has no responsibility but that which we bestow upon it. I wish to bestow no responsibility upon government. It comes down to mindset and how one goes about dealing with daily life, and it's challenges, in my opinion. Some look for ways to succeed, some look for ways to be lifted up by others, with the great manifestation of that being a "hand up" by government. Biker |
August 23, 2011, 02:20 PM | #92 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 23, 2001
Posts: 1,552
|
Quote:
Hmmmm. Their take is similar to ours. They are HERE for a reason or two. Arms ownership might be one very small factor. Yet some take to it like ducks to water. Isn't that amazing? It's simply a cultural thing (how simple or complex an answer [non-answer?] is that). Older culture, vs newer. Telling the gov't to pound sand collectively (forefathers) or acquiescing (sp?) to gov't decree willingly. Self governnment vs not my job to control all aspects of my life. There is no simple answer other than differing cultural development. Thank goodness we're not all marching to the same drummer. Makes life more interesting to have some variety and danger thrown in every now and then. I do wonder how much tax revenue is generated by sales of arms and related arcania in the US vs elsewhere? Which might lead back to the OP (revenue generated action) but not for the same reason BB espoused, just curious.
__________________
A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." - George Washington, January 8, 1790, First State of the Union Address |
|
August 23, 2011, 03:57 PM | #93 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 9, 2005
Posts: 1,712
|
After reading your posts, Bobby: I feel quite sorry for anyone living in the UK who understands what freedom means & desires it.
__________________
To kill something as great as a duck just to smell the gunpowder is a crime against nature. - Alan Liere Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. - George Bernard Shaw |
August 23, 2011, 05:33 PM | #94 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Location: Arizona
Posts: 5,297
|
Baba Louie, they should talk to Angus Hobdell. He moved here from England because he couldn't do his favorite sport, shooting. He is now one of the top shooters in the world, leading Team CZ-USA, and runs CZ Custom here in AZ. Great guy.
|
August 23, 2011, 07:07 PM | #95 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 28, 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,231
|
Quote:
I see no links to the studies? I see links to the numbers. what is that direct coorelation or causal factor? were these peer reviewed studies?
__________________
Have a nice day at the range NRA Life Member |
|
August 23, 2011, 07:50 PM | #96 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 23, 2001
Posts: 1,552
|
Quote:
Elimination of cars might eliminate auto accidents, soon to probably have more bicycle accidents or driving horses under the influence or some-such. Eliminate guns TOTALLY, there might be a drop in gun crime, maybe... but more than likely not (someone could & would easily make a black powder device), only to see archery tackle, knives, bats or rocks become something else to ban as self reliant types would find use for self defense and/or mayhem. However, if you can get the people to ban the object... hey now, you wanted it, we deliver. I would bet that if this nation was wracked and wrecked by two world wars within 30 years, only to have China or Russia (whoever) save our economy post war to rebuild, I'd opine that a large number of our fine citizens might be singing a different tune... But I'm probably wrong. I often am.
__________________
A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." - George Washington, January 8, 1790, First State of the Union Address |
|
August 24, 2011, 08:56 AM | #97 | |
Junior member
Join Date: April 18, 2008
Location: N. Central Florida
Posts: 8,518
|
Quote:
Just sayin'.......................... |
|
August 24, 2011, 09:16 AM | #98 |
Junior member
Join Date: May 23, 2011
Posts: 216
|
Well Well I have a feeling some one wants us to think they are better than us in the United States. Let me see Europe screwed up themselves since time began with wars and we needed to help them out in Two World Wars. Why gun control works in Europe is simply because Europeans are sheep. So how are the riots going I hear guns are now in the hands of only criminals and terrorists.
How is that working for ya? Mace |
August 24, 2011, 10:28 AM | #99 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 9, 2005
Posts: 1,712
|
Quote:
__________________
To kill something as great as a duck just to smell the gunpowder is a crime against nature. - Alan Liere Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. - George Bernard Shaw |
|
August 24, 2011, 10:57 AM | #100 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 17, 2007
Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO
Posts: 5,970
|
You may be right oneounceload, as well as you FrontSight.
Clear back in post #49, Manta more or less called British Booby out for not coming back and responding to any questions. Since there were no insulting posts or any posts written to offend BB, one can only come to the conclusion that he has presented himself to be a troll or coward by not defending his position. Whomever BB is, I hope he takes these responses,thinks about them and re-evaluates his thoughts and morals as he has stated them. If he doesn't he'll wake up one day and will not like what he sees in the mirror. |
|
|