Japanese contract Czech vz -24

[Liulfr]

I recently purchased a VZ-24 from a friend who claimed it was a Japanese contract rifle that was captured in the pacific islands. The story I was told was that the rifle was made in Czechoslovakia and exported to the Imperial Japanese army during the later conflicts in the Pacific front. Apparently the rifle was pulled from a dead Japanese soldier after he was struck with an artillery shell and judging from the damage on the rifle; I'm keen to believe it.

My question, however, is how do I confirm this was actually a Japanese contract rifle? There is a Kanji written on the rear of the stock in an industrial yellow paint but that is the only evidence I've seen so far to validate.

Additionally, how much would it be worth? It is not severely damaged and is apparently safe enough to fire, but is definitely in fair disrepair (I.E. broken/ missing parts, rusting, split stock, etc.) If anyone is curious, I paid $180 for it.

Thanks

[tangolima]

Picture?

-TL

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[Liulfr]

Unfortunately unavailable at this time. In California we are subject to a 10 day waiting period after all firearm purchases. Will definitely post when able though!

[tangolima]

I remember a while ago there was a thread about a Mauser rifle of almost exact description. It was concluded that its authenticity was very doubtful. But one will never know till all pieces are put together.

-TL

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[THE]

This my help you a little. A place to start.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/coll...-24-t2423.html

http://www.icollector.com/Two-Czecho...ith-P_i9964738

[RC20]

I will be interested in the outcome.

On the surface it would make no sense.

The only items exchanged between Japan and Europe in WWII were strategic materials. Much of which got sunk due to Ultra code breaking.

Japan was fully capable of and did make their own small arms.

[BillM]

The only items exchanged between Japan and Europe in WWII were strategic materials. Much of which got sunk due to Ultra code breaking.

Japan was fully capable of and did make their own small arms.
__

So---What about the Type I rifle? Pretty sure Italy is part of Europe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_I_Rifle
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[Wyosmith]

I read in a book called "Shots Fired in Anger" that when the US troops captured weapons from the Japs that they did fine quite a number of European made weapons from Mausers to SMLES and many others.

I seriously doubt there were any Japanese contracts for such guns, but I do not doubt it was brought home from the pacific. The CZ factories were capitulated to the Nazis just before the war started , and their production was then used by Germany, but for Hitler to agree to send some of the production to Japan and then for the Japanese to get it from the main Islands to the battle front would all take time.

The 1st '"land war" in the pacific for the US in the offensive was the invasion of Guadalcanal in August of 42
Hitler took control of Czechoslovakia in March of 39 and control of the CZ factories in May of 39. But Hitler didn't sight an alliance with japan until the end of Sept 1940.

So I guess it's possible, but in 2 years those rifles would have been shipped to Germany from Czechoslovakia and then from Germany to Japan, and then from Japan to what ever island the rifle was captured on. This coupled with the fact that if the rifle is still an 8X57 the Japanese war machine was not making the ammo.

So a more likely explanation is simply that the Japanese were buying up all the weapons they could get in the late 20s and 1930s, and arming troops with them in reserve, and defensive positions.

When the tide of war turned against the Japanese those outposts became battlefields and they lost everything they had placed on those islands. Your rifle included.

Anyway..........that's my guess.

[Screwball]

Originally Posted by BillM

So---What about the Type I rifle? Pretty sure Italy is part of Europe.

Being I used to have one, was going to say the same exact thing.

The Type I was produced in 1938 and 1939... with reports of shipments (via submarine) going to Japan up through 1941.

[jimbob86]

So a more likely explanation is simply that the Japanese were buying up all the weapons they could get in the late 20s and 1930s, and arming troops with them in reserve, and defensive positions.

Everybody (as in every country in the world) was buying weapons in the 20's and 30's .... the Czechs sold hundreds of thousands of vZ24's around the world, including 100,000 of them chambered in 8x57 sold to China .... the Japanese captured most of those brand new rifles at the end of 1937, and there being a war on, I doubt they threw them away .....

I would imagine that the Japanese captured all manner of weapons in great quantity between 1937 and 1942 .... and again, I doubt they threw them out.

[2damnold4this]

Could it be a rifle the Japanese captured from the Chinese?

[Tidewater_Kid]

Does the serial number begin with a P or a C. These are the known Japanese contract CZ rifles.

[T. O'Heir]

"...struck with an artillery shell..." The guy and the rifle would have become one with the guy's ancestors. Buy the rifle, not the story.
Apparently the IJN used 'em. But so did everybody else. Red Chinese, Nationalist Chinese(where the Japanese Army got 'em), Japanese Marines and naval types. Supposedly, decidedly rare things.
"...missing parts, rusting, split stock, etc..." All that means it is not safe to shoot. A lot depends on what parts are missing. CZ 24 parts supposedly fit. Stock splits can be fixed with epoxy.
Mostly a case of how much money you want to spend on it.

[jimbob86]

"...struck with an artillery shell..." The guy and the rifle would have become one with the guy's ancestors. Buy the rifle, not the story.

Oh, that would depend upon the proximity to point of impact, and the size of the shell ....

If the guy and and his rifle were actually struck by the shell when it detonated, and it was bigger than a 105mm .... both would have been unrecognizable as man or rifle ... but Delta Hotels are not all that common .... most casualties from artillery fire are caused by shell fragments .... which I can tell you from firsthand experience are wicked sharp and can travel an impressive distance, even if they are relatively small ....

[RC20]

Being I used to have one, was going to say the same exact thing.

The Type I was produced in 1938 and 1939... with reports of shipments (via submarine) going to Japan up through 1941.

Do you really think that they would waste space on a precious and slow submarine for a rifle?

That is really unfathomable (pun intended)

Any they had were captured most likely in China but also possible Vietnam, Burma, Thailand, the East Indies.

[Liulfr]

It is very possible that the rifle is a Chinese capture, but until I look at the serial numbers I won't know for sure. From what the previous owner told me, the rifle is safe to shoot (or rather will shoot) but the missing parts are non essential items such as some of the wooden furniture and a the spring for the sight and such. I will be posting pictures relatively soon, I believe the former owner took several I will be able to post.

[jimbob86]

Do you really think that they would waste space on a precious and slow submarine for a rifle?

Many things that do not make sense from a logistics/materiel sense make perfect sense when one takes diplomacy into account ..... Keeping contracts with one's allies would be important ..... showing them you could run a submarine anywhere you wanted to, even if it was to the other side of the world would be impressive ..... and nations want strong, capable allies that keep their word.... doing something like this might seem frivolous later in the war, when things were more desperate, but in 1940-42, when the Axis Powers were riding high , it was a "Because I can" thing, I think ....

Interestingly enough, these voyages continued throughout the war , by all 3 Axis Powers (well, Italy through 1943) :

http://dubm.de/en/the-voyage-to-the-far-east/

[tangolima]

Logistics indeed makes the story suspicious. The Japanese already had huge headache supporting their "normal" small arm ammunitions; at least 2 different calibers with variations of each. It would be doubly more difficult for outlying islands. Adding an other "abnormal" caliber would more difficult several times over.

-TL

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[RC20]

There was some cross pollination.

They used 1917s in the Philippines as they had a large supply and captured ammo to go with it.

Its certainly possible other spots would get captured weapons if they had the stock of ammo to go with it.

Germans acualy made an industry of it.

That certainly has no connection with a sub. Those missions were reserved for high value items, engine designs, strategic supplies.

The first thing the Japanese went independent on was small arms designs and never looked back.

We need the European to show us how to build a gun? Really.

We are building the best long range maneuverable fighter of the whole war, battleships with 18 inch rifles, Carriers (one of 3 nations to do so and that excludes France, Germany and Italy) torpedoes to die for and we need someone to ship us guns?

[jimbob86]

The first thing the Japanese went independent on was small arms designs and never looked back.

So .... you are saying that there was no "Type "I" Rifle" in service with the IJN, despite the records of the contracts..... all the rifles marked accordingly in existence, some with capture paperwork ..... really? Based on what, exactly? That stuff must be a vast conspiracy, right? That's ridiculous, RC.

[Pathfinder45]

Well, there were other odd things they did that don't always make sense to us here and now, but in their situation at the time may have been expedient for one reason or another. Oddly, to me, is that one of the main machine gun calibers of the Japanese navy, at least in their aircraft, was 303 British. That just seems like an unnecessary complication to logistics for them. But then, I also hear that machine guns in British tanks used 8mm Mauser ammo!?!?

[tobnpr]

Quite a find if genuine.
The Czechs did in fact, contract for some 40,000 VZ-24s for Japan in 1938- in 7.9mm by the Imperial Japanese Navy according to my reference by Robert Ball.

http://www.nramuseum.org/guns/the-ga...ion-rifle.aspx

I suspect it was a very wise investment on your part, given the rarity and uniqueness of the weapon for the Mauser collector, and those of Japanese military firearms/memorabilia, despite it's condition.

PICS!

As far as parts, Mauser K98k , or any VZ-24 parts should be interchangeable.

[Liulfr]

Don't know if this is allowed or not but posting oldschool is too complicated for me. Here are links to the pics and I ask forgiveness again if this is frowned upon.

https://plus.google.com/photos/photo...1551998252674?


https://plus.google.com/photos/photo...61488762165282

https://plus.google.com/photos/photo...61412916012866

Apologies for the lack of details in the images, but was the best I could get my hands on. Apparently the serial number is simply 3500 as well, no letter or anything else before it apparently.

[tobnpr]

Doesn't look all that bad...definitely saw some use but that's expected.
Looking forward to better pics when you're able.

[RC20]

So .... you are saying that there was no "Type "I" Rifle" in service with the IJN, despite the records of the contracts..... all the rifles marked accordingly in existence, some with capture paperwork ..... really? Based on what, exactly? That stuff must be a vast conspiracy, right? That's ridiculous, RC.

I know one guy that paid $25,000 for a faked Luger pistol that all the experts at the time agreed was the real thing. The Vz-24 is not in that category, lots of different views on it.

All the research on the issue merely says that there was a contract (two actually).

There is nothing those were executed, shipping methods, serial number ranges.

Nothing I see indicates these were anything other than Chinese supplied and picked up rifles that were then marked with Japanese characters on the stocks (if they are not Chinese characters)