1859 Sharps general questions

DD4lifeusmc · October 12, 2012, 03:26 PM

I will have a new Reproduction next week.
In my old front muzzle loader, I pan dip to fill the gas check grooves.
Would it be recommended to do so with the breechloading sharps?
Or would too much lube and subsequent fouling build up in the chamber?

Years ago on side of new ammo boxes they had a silhouette picture depicting the arc
that bullet would make at various ranges.
Does anybody have one like it for the sharps. Even a general one.
I am expecting to begin testing with 60 to 80 grains B.P. and a 415 grain bullet.
My starting range will be 50 yards till consistently on paper and reasonable grouping.
Any other helpful info would be appreciated.
TIA!

steinauge · October 15, 2012, 11:08 AM

If you are using black powder the extra lube is a good thing.As far as trajectory if you are using a 415 grain bullet and 60 grains of 2F I reckon it wouldnt be too different from the old 45-70 carbine load.( 400 gr and 55gr).Why not just get on paper at say 25 yds then go to 50 and 100 and so on using the same hold for each and a big piece of paper? I use butchers paper,it comes in rolls.You can quickly figure your drop that way.

Bill Carson · October 15, 2012, 11:00 PM

I've been shooting a pedrsoli m1859 3 band rifle for the past year. here are some things I've learned. I'm using a 540 hollow base minney, lubed with a beeswax, lard, and olive oil mix. i find 50 grains of goex 2f do well for 50-100 paper and silhouettes. point of aim is hard to describe ,everboboy sees sights differently. it is very inportant to use the hottest caps available. those would be 'no.1081 dynamit nobels'. the sharpes flash channel is complex, lesser caps won't generate enough fire to reach the powder. as it is, I've had to rework mine. I drilled the nippel to 5/64th, same for the flash nozzel in the center of the breech block. the breech itself is harden. to improve that channel, I used a very small rotrory file ,using the clean out screw to access as much of the channel as possible. i used a micro cherry to round some of the channel corners. this combination has made the riflel 99.9% reliable. even the originals had issues relating to the flash channel. next, before going out to the shoot I coat the face of the breech block with pam (careful, don't get any in the flash channel). doing so will help keep the block from jamming from powder fowling. using lighter loads and pam, I'm able to fire 25-40 rounds with out stopping to clean. note, humid weather helps, dry cold weather puts it back to 25 rounds apx. paper cartriges are the way to go. its amazing the rate of fire these are capable of. there are plenty of sights on paper cartridge making (including this one). no need to repeat. I load mine with a tool I made. the tool is loaded at the bench with projectel, powder, and cap. once on the line the tool is put in to the open breech just as you would a met. cartridge. Then, pushing the plunger forward puts the load into the chamber. closing the breech block seals in the charge and kicks the tool up and out of the way much as a spent cartridge . the end of the tool holds 1 musket cap. it is pushed down on the nipple, leaving the cap. it takes less time to do this than reading my description. hope these tips will help.

DD4lifeusmc · October 21, 2012, 12:11 AM

Thanks for your input Bill
Think i will make a tampon stuffer similar to yours.
Maybe two or three.

mehavey · October 21, 2012, 08:02 PM

When shooting North South w/ the Sharps, I made paper/tube cartridges using both buffalo slug (for 50 yard) and conical (for 100 yard).

The load data is below.
Note the use of 4:1:1 Crisco/Alox/Beeswax for lube.

The results are below:
NOTE: the the heavy dipping of the cartridge/bullet end into lube -- 4X

You simply cannot have too much lube in this rifle -- especially when repeatedly firing/shoving in another paper cartridge as fast as you can in a 2-minute drill.

maillemaker · May 3, 2017, 01:34 PM

Why did you change to Elmer's vs. super glue for securing the bullet?

Steve

mehavey · May 3, 2017, 03:48 PM

Because I found it "stuck" things just as quickly/well,
less residual/stiff layer left on fingers after a session,
and eliminated the cyano as a separate/expensive bonder
(whose tip would always clog over time -- even SuperThin)

maillemaker · May 3, 2017, 04:00 PM

OK, so no accuracy issues?

Steve

mehavey · May 3, 2017, 04:07 PM

None at all... and the onion skin tubes/cigarette paper ends burned completely.
(Don't forget to double-dip the bullet itself into melted lube at the end)

Hawg · May 3, 2017, 05:57 PM

I used 80 grains of Swiss 2F and a 490 grain ring tail bullet in my 63. I made cartridges out of untreated wrapping paper and dip lubed them up to the paper. Pyrodex slow fires with the two 90 degree bends in the firing channel and I would imagine the other subs would as well.

maillemaker · May 4, 2017, 10:57 AM

I've had good success with 17 pound recycled vellum for the tube body, and hair curler paper for the end caps.

I experimented with nitrated 20 pound computer paper but found the vellum disintegrates just fine without the trouble of nitrating, and there is no increased risk of external light-off from an ember as I fear nitrated cartridges would have.

Also the 17 pound vellum runs through my laser printer which is nice as I print out the cut pattern grid onto them and then use a steel rule to cut them out en mass.

Steve

Hawg · May 4, 2017, 12:38 PM

I know the late cartridges were cut to chamber length but the gun is designed to cut the tail off. Mine didn't lose enough powder in the process to make any difference.

**4V50 Gary** · May 4, 2017, 01:21 PM

Bill -what are the hottest musket caps around? I use CCI because they're the only ones I've found.

mehavey · May 4, 2017, 03:38 PM

These...
http://www.gamaliel.com/muzzlepercus...1_4_flange.asp

Hawg · May 4, 2017, 04:40 PM

Quote:

what are the hottest musket caps around? I use CCI because they're the only ones I've found.

RWS is best. CCI six wing caps are good if you can find any. The 4 wing CCI caps are reenactor caps with very mild charges. I have 4 wing and no wing RWS caps and they both worked very well with my Sharps.

sltm1 · May 5, 2017, 10:39 AM

Back in the day....when I owned a 59', in order to get 100% reliability before I pulled the trigger I would tilt the bbl into the air and with the palm of my hand tap the forearm. This allowed some of the powder to go into the flash (nipple), channel, therefore shortening the distance the flame had to go before igniting the powder. I also used the brass spacer needed for igniting brass cartridges in order to eliminate the air pocket, all my shots were free poured, not assembled bullets.

Hawg · May 5, 2017, 11:25 AM

The air pocket is immaterial. Mine held 110 grains of loose powder but the recommended load was 80 which turned out to be the best load for mine. I started with loose powder but switched to unauthentic paper cartridges.

sltm1 · May 5, 2017, 12:51 PM

Ya know, it may be nothing, but I always was taught not to have air space in a bp load. So if I'm going to make a mistake, I choose to make one on the side of safety.

mehavey · May 5, 2017, 03:53 PM

Loose powder will not burn in a consistent manner. (and at worst will disperse into the vacant space with the cap charge and burn semi-explosively as a distributed/granular-aerosol instead of a train.)

I do not recommend it.

DD4lifeusmc · May 5, 2017, 04:02 PM

well the air space is behind the powder.

also the rifle has been in production in this shape for a 130 some years, and no stories
of them blowing up.
So I will continue to shoot mine as is. Bulk and with paper cartridge. and with Brass too

Hawg · May 5, 2017, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Loose powder will not burn in a consistent manner. (and at worst will disperse into the vacant space with the cap charge and burn semi-explosively as a distributed/granular-aerosol instead of a train.)

In theory maybe but not in practice.

mehavey · May 6, 2017, 10:05 AM

Sorry... but I've sat down with innumerable shooters who had multiple FTFs to find that they's simply dumped a loose charge into a Sharps chamber to find it didn't ignite reliably (charge settled below the flashcone); and/or had them properly seat the (flat-base) cartridge so that its end was directly against flashcone ... with remarkable (in their eyes) results.

You're not going to "bulge" anything in a Sharps through an airspace -- but the effects at a 100yds (or through a chronograph) are readily apparent.

Hawg · May 6, 2017, 01:44 PM

Maybe with really low charges. I don't have a chronograph but 80 grains at 100 yards shows no difference between loose powder or a paper cartridge and I never had a FTF. Even with Pyrodex I never had a FTF but all of those fired slow.

mehavey · May 6, 2017, 01:57 PM

80-90 grains (i.e. max capacity in a flat-base cartridge), likely no difference.
Agree.

maillemaker · May 6, 2017, 10:35 PM

According to Larry Flees, the guy who did the gas check plate rework on my Pedersoli, the stock fire channel has lots of extra nooks and crannies in it where the flast blast gets wasted in them. He can re-work the pieces that go into the channel (cleanout screw etc.) so that these nooks and crannies are gone and you will get more reliable ignition.

These nooks and crannies tend to build up with fouling after 10 or so shots, so ignition becomes more reliable after that, but if you get failure to fire early on, it may be because of the fire channel. I'm about to send my block off to be fixed.

I use German caps.

Steve

October 12, 2012, 03:26 PM	#1
DD4lifeusmc Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2012 Location: Wyoming Posts: 351	1859 Sharps general questions I will have a new Reproduction next week. In my old front muzzle loader, I pan dip to fill the gas check grooves. Would it be recommended to do so with the breechloading sharps? Or would too much lube and subsequent fouling build up in the chamber? Years ago on side of new ammo boxes they had a silhouette picture depicting the arc that bullet would make at various ranges. Does anybody have one like it for the sharps. Even a general one. I am expecting to begin testing with 60 to 80 grains B.P. and a 415 grain bullet. My starting range will be 50 yards till consistently on paper and reasonable grouping. Any other helpful info would be appreciated. TIA!

October 21, 2012, 12:11 AM	#4
DD4lifeusmc Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2012 Location: Wyoming Posts: 351	general questions Thanks for your input Bill Think i will make a tampon stuffer similar to yours. Maybe two or three.

May 4, 2017, 01:21 PM	#13
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,841	Bill -what are the hottest musket caps around? I use CCI because they're the only ones I've found. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

October 15, 2012, 11:08 AM	#2
steinauge Member Join Date: July 18, 2012 Posts: 24	If you are using black powder the extra lube is a good thing.As far as trajectory if you are using a 415 grain bullet and 60 grains of 2F I reckon it wouldnt be too different from the old 45-70 carbine load.( 400 gr and 55gr).Why not just get on paper at say 25 yds then go to 50 and 100 and so on using the same hold for each and a big piece of paper? I use butchers paper,it comes in rolls.You can quickly figure your drop that way.

October 15, 2012, 11:00 PM	#3
Bill Carson Member Join Date: September 20, 2012 Posts: 29	I've been shooting a pedrsoli m1859 3 band rifle for the past year. here are some things I've learned. I'm using a 540 hollow base minney, lubed with a beeswax, lard, and olive oil mix. i find 50 grains of goex 2f do well for 50-100 paper and silhouettes. point of aim is hard to describe ,everboboy sees sights differently. it is very inportant to use the hottest caps available. those would be 'no.1081 dynamit nobels'. the sharpes flash channel is complex, lesser caps won't generate enough fire to reach the powder. as it is, I've had to rework mine. I drilled the nippel to 5/64th, same for the flash nozzel in the center of the breech block. the breech itself is harden. to improve that channel, I used a very small rotrory file ,using the clean out screw to access as much of the channel as possible. i used a micro cherry to round some of the channel corners. this combination has made the riflel 99.9% reliable. even the originals had issues relating to the flash channel. next, before going out to the shoot I coat the face of the breech block with pam (careful, don't get any in the flash channel). doing so will help keep the block from jamming from powder fowling. using lighter loads and pam, I'm able to fire 25-40 rounds with out stopping to clean. note, humid weather helps, dry cold weather puts it back to 25 rounds apx. paper cartriges are the way to go. its amazing the rate of fire these are capable of. there are plenty of sights on paper cartridge making (including this one). no need to repeat. I load mine with a tool I made. the tool is loaded at the bench with projectel, powder, and cap. once on the line the tool is put in to the open breech just as you would a met. cartridge. Then, pushing the plunger forward puts the load into the chamber. closing the breech block seals in the charge and kicks the tool up and out of the way much as a spent cartridge . the end of the tool holds 1 musket cap. it is pushed down on the nipple, leaving the cap. it takes less time to do this than reading my description. hope these tips will help.

October 21, 2012, 08:02 PM	#5
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,896	When shooting North South w/ the Sharps, I made paper/tube cartridges using both buffalo slug (for 50 yard) and conical (for 100 yard). The load data is below. Note the use of 4:1:1 Crisco/Alox/Beeswax for lube. The results are below: NOTE: the the heavy dipping of the cartridge/bullet end into lube -- 4X You simply cannot have too much lube in this rifle -- especially when repeatedly firing/shoving in another paper cartridge as fast as you can in a 2-minute drill.

May 3, 2017, 01:34 PM	#6
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	Why did you change to Elmer's vs. super glue for securing the bullet? Steve

May 3, 2017, 03:48 PM	#7
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,896	Because I found it "stuck" things just as quickly/well, less residual/stiff layer left on fingers after a session, and eliminated the cyano as a separate/expensive bonder (whose tip would always clog over time -- even SuperThin)

May 3, 2017, 04:00 PM	#8
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	OK, so no accuracy issues? Steve

May 3, 2017, 04:07 PM	#9
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,896	None at all... and the onion skin tubes/cigarette paper ends burned completely. (Don't forget to double-dip the bullet itself into melted lube at the end)

May 3, 2017, 05:57 PM	#10
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	I used 80 grains of Swiss 2F and a 490 grain ring tail bullet in my 63. I made cartridges out of untreated wrapping paper and dip lubed them up to the paper. Pyrodex slow fires with the two 90 degree bends in the firing channel and I would imagine the other subs would as well.

May 4, 2017, 10:57 AM	#11
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	I've had good success with 17 pound recycled vellum for the tube body, and hair curler paper for the end caps. I experimented with nitrated 20 pound computer paper but found the vellum disintegrates just fine without the trouble of nitrating, and there is no increased risk of external light-off from an ember as I fear nitrated cartridges would have. Also the 17 pound vellum runs through my laser printer which is nice as I print out the cut pattern grid onto them and then use a steel rule to cut them out en mass. Steve

May 4, 2017, 12:38 PM	#12
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	I know the late cartridges were cut to chamber length but the gun is designed to cut the tail off. Mine didn't lose enough powder in the process to make any difference.

May 4, 2017, 03:38 PM	#14
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,896	These... http://www.gamaliel.com/muzzlepercus...1_4_flange.asp

May 5, 2017, 10:39 AM	#16
sltm1 Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2009 Location: Idaho Posts: 353	Back in the day....when I owned a 59', in order to get 100% reliability before I pulled the trigger I would tilt the bbl into the air and with the palm of my hand tap the forearm. This allowed some of the powder to go into the flash (nipple), channel, therefore shortening the distance the flame had to go before igniting the powder. I also used the brass spacer needed for igniting brass cartridges in order to eliminate the air pocket, all my shots were free poured, not assembled bullets.

May 5, 2017, 11:25 AM	#17
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	The air pocket is immaterial. Mine held 110 grains of loose powder but the recommended load was 80 which turned out to be the best load for mine. I started with loose powder but switched to unauthentic paper cartridges.

May 5, 2017, 12:51 PM	#18
sltm1 Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2009 Location: Idaho Posts: 353	Ya know, it may be nothing, but I always was taught not to have air space in a bp load. So if I'm going to make a mistake, I choose to make one on the side of safety.

May 5, 2017, 03:53 PM	#19
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,896	Loose powder will not burn in a consistent manner. (and at worst will disperse into the vacant space with the cap charge and burn semi-explosively as a distributed/granular-aerosol instead of a train.) I do not recommend it.

May 5, 2017, 04:02 PM	#20
DD4lifeusmc Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2012 Location: Wyoming Posts: 351	well the air space is behind the powder. also the rifle has been in production in this shape for a 130 some years, and no stories of them blowing up. So I will continue to shoot mine as is. Bulk and with paper cartridge. and with Brass too

May 6, 2017, 10:05 AM	#22
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,896	Sorry... but I've sat down with innumerable shooters who had multiple FTFs to find that they's simply dumped a loose charge into a Sharps chamber to find it didn't ignite reliably (charge settled below the flashcone); and/or had them properly seat the (flat-base) cartridge so that its end was directly against flashcone ... with remarkable (in their eyes) results. You're not going to "bulge" anything in a Sharps through an airspace -- but the effects at a 100yds (or through a chronograph) are readily apparent.

May 6, 2017, 01:44 PM	#23
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	Maybe with really low charges. I don't have a chronograph but 80 grains at 100 yards shows no difference between loose powder or a paper cartridge and I never had a FTF. Even with Pyrodex I never had a FTF but all of those fired slow.

May 6, 2017, 01:57 PM	#24
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,896	80-90 grains (i.e. max capacity in a flat-base cartridge), likely no difference. Agree.

May 6, 2017, 10:35 PM	#25
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	According to Larry Flees, the guy who did the gas check plate rework on my Pedersoli, the stock fire channel has lots of extra nooks and crannies in it where the flast blast gets wasted in them. He can re-work the pieces that go into the channel (cleanout screw etc.) so that these nooks and crannies are gone and you will get more reliable ignition. These nooks and crannies tend to build up with fouling after 10 or so shots, so ignition becomes more reliable after that, but if you get failure to fire early on, it may be because of the fire channel. I'm about to send my block off to be fixed. I use German caps. Steve