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Old June 12, 2019, 01:44 PM   #26
T. O'Heir
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"...12 gauge for 20 gauge..." Fewer pellets regardless of the size. However, a 20 will do the same thing a 12 will do with less recoil.
Buck shot is not required with either gauge. No. 2 bird shot is plenty and there will be no issue with over penetration.
"...cocked and locked..." That won't bother the gun, but you will have a loaded firearm, presumably, unsecured from curious kids. If there are any. Local ordinances will apply too.
"...Home defense is not combat..." Exactly. Neither is CCW.
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Old June 12, 2019, 02:28 PM   #27
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lots of concerns here, some overly concerned while some rightly so. here are a few tips.

*alarm system. this not only warns you that a breach has been made, but lets the criminal know they've been had as well as the police being dispatched.

* night lights. staged throughout the house provide plenty of lighting to "identify" the target enough to know its not Jr. or the wife.

* know your house. what are the most likely access points? where is it best to stage until the police arrive?

* training. no trainer worth speaking of will recommend that you clear ANY building by yourself.

* finally the gun. unless you have a short bbl shotgun, most distances in a home will not be long enough for pellet dispersion/pattern to matter. that said, you should still see this for yourself by walking off your hallway, then walking off that same distance outside and shooting it with your chosen gun and ammo combo.

there are more points to all of this but these are just some basics. if you haven't met these already do not worry about the other stuff. check these off your list before moving on.
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Old June 12, 2019, 04:59 PM   #28
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A lot of good food for thought here and many good suggestions. I certainly don't plan on going all Rambo in my own home. Jerry's suggestion for having night light dispersed through out the house is a great point I hadn't thought of. Thanks everyone for the feed back. I greatly appreciate it.
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Old June 12, 2019, 09:14 PM   #29
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#4 buck 2-3/4" cruiser ready short barrel.
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Old June 13, 2019, 11:28 AM   #30
JERRYS.
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Originally Posted by Couzin View Post
#4 buck 2-3/4" cruiser ready short barrel.
short bbl as in 18" and butt stock, or 14" and pistol grip?
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Old June 13, 2019, 01:30 PM   #31
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Shockwave short. Replaced my old 18-1/2" mossberg with pistol grip. I really like this new platform.
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Old June 13, 2019, 09:00 PM   #32
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PGO... a recipe for hardcore misses. Practice with like loads of bird shot until you can point shoot and hit the target reliably. Then practice some more.

PGO's look good in concept but are usually found wanting in use.
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Old June 13, 2019, 09:39 PM   #33
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I'll say these things based on my own experience.

Racking the pump gun will tell them where you are: The creaking of your bedroom door/ stairway/ floorboard will already do that. Racking the slide will set the tone of the next part of your "conversation". It has worked and it has failed.

Racking the pump gun will make them go away: That is a preferred outcome; if I have to discuss this part with a Homicide Detective (if used you will) I will do so through my attorney.

For my area I have a non standard house size and layout... I have a 15 yard fatal funnel....If I rack and they don't comply...well. And that goes to state laws..... I know CPC 198.5 and will keep a big dose of STFU until MY attorney speaks for me. Until then I will allow the primary evidence to speak for itself.

Moderator Glenn E. Meyer is an Attorney but he is not MY / YOUR attorney. That said heed his legal advice. His caveats are sound. Caveat #1... STFU...let a defense lawyer barred in your state speak for you; even in Castle Law States you will most likely need one because your case may go before a Grand Jury for consideration.

Ammo: Nothing exotic. Base your choice on your circumstances; Apt with thin walls vs. house in metro area. vs. house with acrage. You are responsible for what you send.

Jurors: Expect the prosecution to look for firearms ignorant people to be your "peers".

DA: Even in "friendly" territory don't bet on it; say the wrong thing and you just trashed your qualifed immunity.
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Old June 14, 2019, 01:50 PM   #34
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Not an attorney but a psychologist who did jury response research and a modicum of training.

Didn't mention in response to a post, skip the Shockwave, pistol grips - not easy to aim and you need to aim. For a home defense gun, the debatable shorter size of a Shockwave isn't an advantage.

To hold it at eye level, you need to extend it almost as far as a stocked gun.
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Old June 17, 2019, 09:50 PM   #35
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+1 for 2 3/4 #1 buck for HD.
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Old June 17, 2019, 11:10 PM   #36
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I use Federal Flight Control #1. I have a bunch of Hornady 00 as well but the Federalshoots just a touch better.
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Old June 18, 2019, 08:59 AM   #37
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Quote:
However, a 20 will do the same thing a 12 will do with less recoil.
Buck shot is not required with either gauge. No. 2 bird shot is plenty
So much bad advice there.

You want buckshot. I don't think it really matters which size, there are good arguments for 00 and #4 buck. But it needs to be buckshot. Birdshot is a poor substitute, but if it is all you have then use the biggest shot you have available.

I think 3" shells are too much of a good thing. In fact I no longer recommend a shotgun. Even with 2 3/4" shells you're talking about 300 WM recoil levels. Going up to 3" buckshot loads gets you close to elephant rifle recoil levels.

I really think an AR or even a handgun is a better option inside a home. You get 6X the ammo capacity with 1/6 the recoil in a more compact weapon. At inside the home ranges a shotgun pattern isn't big enough to be an advantage. You've got to aim just as precisely. A shotgun comes into play OUTSIDE the home at ranges from 15-50 yards. At closer ranges a handgun or rifle is as good or better.

A shotguns advantages are cheaper costs and more variety of loads that can be used. It isn't ineffective, just that it isn't as good as an AR or other compact semi-auto rifle in a small caliber. Or even a pistol caliber carbine.

If you want to use a 20 you can. But you will be working with reduced payload. And while recoil is less in equal weight guns, most 20's are considerably lighter than comparable 12's. A 20 will rock you with as much, if not more recoil than a 12 due to the lighter firearm. You choose a 20 to have a lighter gun to carry hunting for miles each day. Not for reduced recoil.
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Old June 18, 2019, 09:42 AM   #38
JERRYS.
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if you're using 00 buck I'd recommend Federal reduced recoil loads. they really do make a difference to small frame shooters. for inside the home or even moderate ranges outside they are fantastic all around loads. buy a box, see how it feels shooting them and how they pattern in your gun at the ranges you are likely to use them inside your home.
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Old July 2, 2019, 02:50 AM   #39
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two cents

OK, here goes.

Three inch, 12 ga buckshot loads, turkey loads or varmint loads, will kick the snot out of you, especially from a short defensive shotgun. For some folks, the standard 12ga/ 2-3/4 " load is a heavy kicker too. If you foresee the good wife, your daughter or capable children using your SD shotgun, a 20 ga maybe a viable option. In those instances, a carbine or pistol caliber carbine maybe even better.

-Do not count on the racking of a shotgun to frighten or run off an intruder or adversary. Such mental gymnastics my leave you unprepared for when they do not.
-Likewise, I cannot agree with leaving a round chambered and the safety on as a ready condition for the shotgun. A "cruiser ready" storage will still provide instant readiness,but is far safer from accidental discharge. I completely believe a fully loaded firearm cannot be left unsecured or unattended. Once you get the gun in your hands, chamber a round. Racking a shotgun may reveal your position, but.....
-Announcing one's presence MAY be exactly what you should do...those stealthy footsteps in the hall could be family sneaking in late or your girlfriend, etc. Challenging an intruder (from cover and concealment) is arguably more defensible AFTER a shooting too.
- I have mixed feelings on birdshot. Really small shot, say #7-1/2 and under, especially from light claybird loads, does not do so well much beyond 7 yds/21 ft. Inside of that, it can be devastating. If I could guarantee my SD shooting would be that close, and I absolutely had to limit penetration due to adjacent dwellings like and apartment, townhouse, or motel, I would opt for birdshot. I see birdshot having a very narrow niche in the SD shotgun.
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Old July 2, 2019, 09:28 AM   #40
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In what little experience I have with shootings with a shotgun from a large metro PD area. (Ancillary not actually shooting people. That is not a bucket it list item. I am talking about knowledge of actual shootings). I have gleaned the following.

Birdshot of any kind is a NO GO. In many cases it’s damn near a superficial wound.

Buckshot of any kind out of a 12 gauge was pretty universally a fight stopper damn near immediately.

I don’t recall any 20 or other gauges but many 20 gauges kick like a SOB just by virtue of being a bit smaller and lighter in many cases.

I don’t recall any slug incidents but I have to imagine an .72 caliber oz of lead would be fairly devastating to darn near any un armored living thing.

Basically my takeaway was any and all common buckshot loads out of a 12 gauge were pretty decisive if they make contact. So my take is get some low recoil / flight control stuff and don’t sweat the details beyond being able to make hits.
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Old July 2, 2019, 12:14 PM   #41
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Good Thread.

Gotta concur on the Buckshot. I keep some slugs handy just in case but OO Buckshot is the "standard" HD round in my house.

Good advice on the gun being ready to go with one in the chamber. Nothing more useless than bringing a club to a gunfight and I could care less about warning the opposition so they can set up a counter ambush.
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Old July 3, 2019, 04:37 PM   #42
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Quote:
The flitecontrol keeps the pattern tight which means more pellets on target and less chance of hitting other people/things.
Flitecontrol is intended to hold tight patterns at longer distances. Basically a hunting load. Unless your house has a 50 yard long hall, or room, Flitecontrol will turn your shotgun into a 55 caliber rifle!?
#4 Buck is a great choice for inside a home. Much less of a chance for collateral damage from over penetration, and shooting through walls. With from 21 to 24 pellets the size of a 22 it makes a devastating wound.
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Old July 4, 2019, 12:31 AM   #43
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Unless your house has a 50 yard long hall, or room, Flitecontrol will turn your shotgun into a 55 caliber rifle!?
OO buckshot typically has 9 individual pellets which don't make one hole in a solid target on a hit.
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Old July 4, 2019, 10:18 PM   #44
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Bird shot is not good for HD. A buddy and I were dove hunting on his farm. We split up and walked around a weed patch, and I heard him shoot, a squeal/yelp, he racked another round and shot, then a third round. A coyote cleared the weed patch going about 100 mph and ran out of sight about 3/4 mile. Buddy said the first round rolled the yote in the dirt, and he hit it with all 3 rounds. I can't remember the shot size but likely #8. Buckshot is the ticket for two legged varmints IMHO.
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Old July 4, 2019, 11:04 PM   #45
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Quote:
OO buckshot typically has 9 individual pellets which don't make one hole in a solid target on a hit.
Typical yes. Flite Control not so much. Especially at the short range of home defense. As I said, it's designed, and intended to extend the range of a hunting buckshot load by keeping a very tight pattern at distances far exceeding that of home defense. Where my example of one hole might be somewhat of an exageration, it isn't far off.
Here is one example at ten yards.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cjPa7u8TjGY
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Old July 5, 2019, 03:52 PM   #46
Bartholomew Roberts
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If you are looking for the maximum number of shot where each pellet will still penetrate 12” of gel, then the Federal #1 FliteControl wins the numbers game. I think it would be hard to go wrong with any kind of buckshot though.
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Old July 6, 2019, 06:59 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Cheapshooter View Post
Where my example of one hole might be somewhat of an exageration, it isn't far off.
I agree with this at the point of impact. Brobee223 on YouTube has a video of the 12 Gauge 00 flitecontrol Buckshot loads fired into gel at 5 yards, 20 yards and 40 yards. At 5 yards, the point of impact is only .75 of an inch but even at that range, you can see it open up from there.
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Old July 7, 2019, 05:14 PM   #48
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Flitecontrol vs ballistic gel

OO buck
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=785KTBc68p0


Number 1 buck
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D08nMy3tci4
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Old July 8, 2019, 11:07 AM   #49
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Every bit of this is based on opinion, gleaned from articles by "experts, etc. Show of hands from all those other than a possible law enforcement officer who have actually fired a shotgun in self defense. There are no FBI statistics available.
As far as I am concerned anything sized BB (lead) or larger will do. I will use #4 buck or larger because I want them dead. If I get to the shotgun in any event. My .44 Special is first line of defense.
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Old July 12, 2019, 11:01 PM   #50
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My HD shotgun is loaded with Remingron no 4 buck.

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