The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old June 2, 2019, 06:11 PM   #26
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 9,817
I think the type of firearms used by the women is worth noting. I often see women in gun stores being talked into, by their male friends or the salesmen, very diminutive firearms because it seems much more manageable and many women have small hands. Those aren't unreasonable concerns, but those firearms are often challenging to shoot for even experienced shooters. Would a full-size pistol have made a difference here? Maybe not, but if you're stashing a firearm off body I don't know if you need a snub nosed revolver.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
TunnelRat is offline  
Old June 2, 2019, 10:25 PM   #27
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 22,588
Quote:
... if you're stashing a firearm off body I don't know if you need a snub nosed revolver...
Bigger guns tend to be easier to shoot and often have higher capacity and may be chambered in more powerful rounds.

A female friend of mine went to a gun store for a home-defense gun (one that was never going to be carried) and the clerk talked her into a compact, 5 shot revolver. There's no reason to have a gun designed for concealed carry as an off-body home defense gun. All of the compromises (disadvantages) that make sense for concealed carry guns provide no benefit at all for an off-body gun. It's a lose-lose.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old June 3, 2019, 07:05 AM   #28
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 1,824
These ladies had more grit than most people and perhaps more grit than some here. The bottom lines is that they armed themselves, refused to be a victim and took action in their own defense. I will simply tip my hat to them, not criticize them.

This is how it goes down. its not some sort of choregraphed episode for your viewing pleasure. Its stressful, chaotic and basically a mess. Don't be fooled by what you see john wick do on the big screen. it doesn't happen that way.
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...
FireForged is offline  
Old June 3, 2019, 07:32 AM   #29
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 9,817
Quote:
Originally Posted by FireForged View Post
These ladies had more grit than most people and perhaps more grit than some here. The bottom lines is that they armed themselves, refused to be a victim and took action in their own defense. I will simply tip my hat to them, not criticize them.



This is how it goes down. its not some sort of choregraphed episode for your viewing pleasure. Its stressful, chaotic and basically a mess. Don't be fooled by what you see john wick do on the big screen. it doesn't happen that way.
I don't think most of us here are expecting John Wick. But to be honest the, "Well they survived so I won't criticize", attitude doesn't help anyone, in my opinion. To me there's a difference between Monday morning quarterbacking and trying to learn something.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
TunnelRat is offline  
Old June 3, 2019, 08:59 AM   #30
Lohman446
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 22, 2016
Posts: 2,066
Quote:
Its stressful, chaotic and basically a mess.
Even a well prepared and executed plan does not guarantee survival. A poorly executed plan or lack of preparation does not guarantee failure because, as you note, these things are basically a mess.

HOWEVER if one is going to bother to prepare to to defend ones self these type of scenarios are worth discussing. There was a lot that went wrong here. There was some that went right as well (simply being armed and prepared to shoot for instance). But there is a reason incident reports study what went wrong and what went right. As, hopefully, none of us will ever be involved in an incident and almost surely we will not be involved in enough to become subject matter experts through experience discussion is vital. In fact these types of discussions are likely a major part of any scenarios considered or practiced in training.
Lohman446 is offline  
Old June 3, 2019, 09:07 AM   #31
HiBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 6,459
I'm the OP.
Of course there is plenty to learn. It certainly could have gone better.I agree with the comments about buying a gun for off-body carry. Most folks can handle the equivalent of a Glock 19 class gun. Buy that one first. Get the little gun if you decide you need it later.


Get the good ammo.Be real careful not to shoot your mom.

There is a lot to be said for a 15 rd mag. Pound him till he goes down.

All good.

Drills in the liquor store and working as a team would be good.


Being better prepared for next time would be good. Especially since the Daughter decided to go for a different line of work.
HiBC is offline  
Old June 3, 2019, 09:49 AM   #32
Lohman446
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 22, 2016
Posts: 2,066
Quote:
Most folks can handle the equivalent of a Glock 19 class gun.
This

Let me acknowledge that I carry a J-frame revolver having transitioned from a G19. I'll even acknowledge the hypocrisy of my argument. However remember an appeal to hypocrisy is a logical fallacy in it points out hypocrisy rather than addressing the argument at hand. If I must place a reason it has to do with slide manipulation - off hand slide manipulation is a "probably can do" thing by muscle memory. I can do it at the range, and I can do it in training, but feeling in my left hand is intermittent at best.

"Every" new gun own who goes into the store and buys a new gun should start with a gun in the G19 class with the possible exception of those considering the EZ Smith and Wesson guns designed to address hand strength issues. I don't care if its the G19 or the myriad of other choices that are in the same class (9MM, high capacity, same rough size). This is the gun he or she should train on and then consider other choices to fit a role different than that class of gun (smaller for pocket carry, revolver for revolver reasons, larger, different caliber, etc.)

But you need a benchmark to work from and the G19 class pistol is a great benchmark to work from.
Lohman446 is offline  
Old June 3, 2019, 10:02 AM   #33
JERRYS.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 23, 2013
Location: Alabama
Posts: 2,358
Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy View Post
I don't know and have not been able to find out what caliber(s) the women were shooting. They fired at the suspect with 2 guns. The older woman used a stainless revolver and the woman used a blued semi-auto.



He was shot in the mouth, neck, arm, back, and leg.
yeah, flesh wounds are not good stoppers. COM is better.
JERRYS. is offline  
Old June 3, 2019, 11:59 AM   #34
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 12,913
Quote:
Originally Posted by FireForged
This is how it goes down. its not some sort of choregraphed episode for your viewing pleasure. Its stressful, chaotic and basically a mess. Don't be fooled by what you see john wick do on the big screen. it doesn't happen that way.
Or, as someone once expressed it, "Life is what happens while you're busy making plans."
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old June 3, 2019, 01:18 PM   #35
zincwarrior
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 2,185
Well up until .41 the shots were effective and the threat had ceased. When he started to come back they needed to act again but hesitated, and his lateral movement messed them up.

I can't fault them much. They did not have time to lock the door once he egressed and he came back in quickly.
zincwarrior is offline  
Old June 3, 2019, 05:54 PM   #36
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 1,824
Quote:
"Well they survived so I won't criticize", attitude doesn't help anyone, in my opinion.

Ok, lets examine this ..


These ladies are not going to be helped by anything you are saying here. They are either satisfied with their level of planning, training and decision making.. or they're not.


As far as any critique helping anyone else, lets consider that. A person either has a gun on their person or they don't. A person either hesitates or they don't. A person either knows how to handle a firearm properly or they don't. A person is either a good shot or they arnt. A person will make errors in the moment due to stress or they wont. Very few of those issues are going to me remedied by the simple realization that they can happen.


Most people are not going to wear a firearm at their jiffy mart job. Most people are not in control of whether or not they hesitate in the face of real peril. Most people are going to commit safety violations when handling a firearm is such a circumstance. Most people are either self motivated to be a decent marksman or they are not.. this video and any critique seen in this thread is not likely to encourage anyone reading it to go out and practice more or less than they already do.

So if by saying she mishandled the gun or that she needs to learn to shoot better or that she hesitated or get the good ammo, I am not really sure who that is supposed to help and I am not sure how exactly you expect it to help the reader. A person who is reading threads on a gun forum is very likely leaps and bounds past any criticism you decide to offer in the name of "helping" someone deal with a similar situation.


The ladies had a firearm at their disposal, they knew how to use it, they did use it, didnt really hesitate (much) and ultimately caused the robber to leave and they went home uninjured. I say good job.


If someone reading this thread is genuinely "helped" by reading the criticism of these ladies in this specific circumstance, I would sure like to hear about it.
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...

Last edited by FireForged; June 3, 2019 at 06:01 PM.
FireForged is offline  
Old June 3, 2019, 06:03 PM   #37
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 9,817
Quote:
If someone reading this thread is genuinely "helped" by reading the criticism of these ladies in this specific circumstance, I would sure like to hear about it.
It helps me. It helps to sit and think about these scenarios. I see that as the point of this subforum, and as my time is more limited these days doing a poor man's AAR is closer than I can get to force on force or day or multi-day training events of the past. If you're not helped by it, fair enough. If these women aren't helped by it, fair enough. I can't control who is or isn't helped by this, but I find value in the discussion and I like talking it out (the madness of using a forum for discussion). This subforum exists for a reason. If you don't agree with my interpretation of that reason, fair enough. If you want to go the, "This is all pointless because they survived route", you're welcome to and you can put all the quotes around all the forms of the verb "help" that you can ever imagine. But it doesn't mean I have to agree with you.
__________________
Know the status of your weapon
Keep your muzzle oriented so that no one will be hurt if the firearm discharges
Keep your finger off the trigger until you have an adequate sight picture
Maintain situational awareness

Last edited by TunnelRat; June 3, 2019 at 06:08 PM.
TunnelRat is offline  
Old June 3, 2019, 06:26 PM   #38
JERRYS.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 23, 2013
Location: Alabama
Posts: 2,358
Quote:
Originally Posted by FireForged View Post
Ok, lets examine this ..


These ladies are not going to be helped by anything you are saying here. They are either satisfied with their level of planning, training and decision making.. or they're not.


As far as any critique helping anyone else, lets consider that. A person either has a gun on their person or they don't. A person either hesitates or they don't. A person either knows how to handle a firearm properly or they don't. A person is either a good shot or they arnt. A person will make errors in the moment due to stress or they wont. Very few of those issues are going to me remedied by the simple realization that they can happen.


Most people are not going to wear a firearm at their jiffy mart job. Most people are not in control of whether or not they hesitate in the face of real peril. Most people are going to commit safety violations when handling a firearm is such a circumstance. Most people are either self motivated to be a decent marksman or they are not.. this video and any critique seen in this thread is not likely to encourage anyone reading it to go out and practice more or less than they already do.

So if by saying she mishandled the gun or that she needs to learn to shoot better or that she hesitated or get the good ammo, I am not really sure who that is supposed to help and I am not sure how exactly you expect it to help the reader. A person who is reading threads on a gun forum is very likely leaps and bounds past any criticism you decide to offer in the name of "helping" someone deal with a similar situation.


The ladies had a firearm at their disposal, they knew how to use it, they did use it, didnt really hesitate (much) and ultimately caused the robber to leave and they went home uninjured. I say good job.


If someone reading this thread is genuinely "helped" by reading the criticism of these ladies in this specific circumstance, I would sure like to hear about it.
I agree with post 37 from tunnelrat.


I would like to think everyone reading what these ladies did would be helped by this review. all this restates what many say.... get a gun of a duty caliber and learn how to properly use it, AND mentally prepare yourself to do so.
JERRYS. is offline  
Old June 4, 2019, 06:36 AM   #39
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 1,824
I was not asking if the idea of a discussion forum or the spirit of what discussion forums are intended to foster- helps. I was talking about the specific comments and critiques seen in this thread.

I can accept that the these type of discussions can help.. that is why I have been here for 20 years. That said, there is a difference between thoughtful and productive analysis and what I have seen so far in this thread. I will make an exception for post #25 (good post) and couple others but it seems to go sideways after that.

If the specific comments in this thread has helped you.. great. I didn't expect it

If thoughtful analysis is the goal, I wouldn't mind seeing it as well as participating in the discussion. I will wait and see.

Until then I will simply say (good job) to these ladies and leave it at that.
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...

Last edited by FireForged; June 4, 2019 at 06:56 AM.
FireForged is offline  
Old June 4, 2019, 06:08 PM   #40
Lohman446
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 22, 2016
Posts: 2,066
I think there is an important lesson here. If your attacker flees secure the point of entry. In this case the attacker broke off and the reinitiated the attack. Successfully repelling an attacker in this moment does not necessarily hold to the next
Lohman446 is offline  
Old June 4, 2019, 06:17 PM   #41
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 12,913
Let's keep the discussion on topic ... which is the incident in the video. If you have personal (as opposed to tactical) issues with what someone else posted, take it to private message.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old June 4, 2019, 06:26 PM   #42
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 1,824
separating from your compatriot or leaving cover to go and lock the door may be a good thing and it may be a bad thing depending on what is happening and what the badguy is doing. I would not arbitrarily suggest that going and locking the front door was automatically the best thing to do.. it may not be. There is always a chance that the badguy returns but how you manage or mitigate that possibility depends on lots of things. Maybe you reload and stay where you are, maybe you move to a more defensible area of the store, maybe you run out the back door, maybe lock the front door or maybe you turn the lights out. What you do depends on many nuances which are currently unknown to us. Should they have locked the door when he left?.. maybe.
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...
FireForged is offline  
Old June 4, 2019, 07:49 PM   #43
AK103K
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2001
Posts: 9,967
If you don't lock the door, its definitely a choke point, and if you think your opponent coming back, at least thats the place to open up on them, as opposed to shooting at them all over the store, or something similar. At least you have them pre-sighted and in a fixed place of sorts, even if they are moving.

I get the impression from the video, the extent of things as far as the mom and daughter go is, they had "guns" under the counter, and they figured they were good to go. Beyond that, I dont think they gave it much thought.

Hell, just watching a few videos of stuff like this on YouTube would pass more for education and training than they seem to have. At least they would have a better idea of what to expect, and maybe think about it more, and/or take things a bit more seriously.

Or not.
AK103K is offline  
Old June 4, 2019, 08:24 PM   #44
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 1,824
surface thinking vs dynamic thinking

and when the bad guy suddenly appears while you are standing 5 feet from the door and no cover.. then what? What if he return with help? Is the cheesey little lock on the front door really going to do anything against 1 or more armed and determined attackers who have returned with the intent to commit violence? You must consider how important the task truly is before you commit to it. What exactly do you gain vs risk involved vs the potential for it to get worse.


What I am saying is you must weigh this choice within its proper perspective and not arbitrarily assume that its the best thing to do simply because it sounds good. If you are going to leave cover to perform any task, you need to weigh the potential for getting caught in a worse spot that you are already in. Its a basic tactical imperative.


Similarly if you have a partner(backup) or simply someone else you are protecting- leaving them, separating from them even when its only for a few moments.. you need to consider how this might work against you or how it may offer an opportunity for your adversary to exploit.
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...

Last edited by FireForged; June 5, 2019 at 10:02 AM.
FireForged is offline  
Old June 4, 2019, 10:03 PM   #45
HiBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 6,459
Locking the front door while the bad guy is just outside the door with a shotgun loaded with 00 buck might not be good plan.
Reloading the handguns might be an excellent plan.
HiBC is offline  
Old June 5, 2019, 04:32 AM   #46
Koda94
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2012
Location: Cascadia
Posts: 1,200
I cant quite tell in the vid, but is there a point where the lady is shooting at the bad guy as he is fleeing?
__________________
lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2
Koda94 is offline  
Old June 5, 2019, 06:03 AM   #47
USNRet93
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 23, 2018
Location: Republic of Boulder, USA
Posts: 1,123
Quote:
The ladies had a firearm at their disposal, they knew how to use it, they did use it, didnt really hesitate (much) and ultimately caused the robber to leave and they went home uninjured. I say good job
I agree

I watch a fair number of these types of videos(like those from Active Self Protection) and for me, most show the chaos that is always present when a ‘civilian’ is faced with this type of situation. Yup, most not like a ‘John Wick’ movie....
__________________
PhormerPhantomPhlyer

"Tools not Trophies”
USNRet93 is offline  
Old June 5, 2019, 10:00 AM   #48
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 1,824
Quote:
Locking the front door while the bad guy is just outside the door with a shotgun loaded with 00 buck might not be good plan.
Reloading the handguns might be an excellent plan.

exactly
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...
FireForged is offline  
Old June 5, 2019, 10:12 AM   #49
zincwarrior
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 2,185
Quote:
Originally Posted by FireForged View Post
exactly
Everything is situational. one priority should be to put as many barriers between yourself and the threat as possible to delay them until police arrive. Thats why locking the door if practical is a good idea.
zincwarrior is offline  
Old June 5, 2019, 10:22 AM   #50
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 1,824
Quote:
I cant quite tell in the vid, but is there a point where the lady is shooting at the bad guy as he is fleeing?

Well, from the very limited angle that we can see.. it sort of appears that way.

BUT!..The fact that he immediately came back could suggest that he wasnt breaking off the attack.. just working another angle. We also don't know if he was still pointing the gun at them or not. A person turning their back might be trying to flee and they might be trying to get to cover so that they can continue attacking you. To fairly judge, we need more information.
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...
FireForged is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:14 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.09899 seconds with 8 queries