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Old April 30, 2019, 10:38 PM   #1
Murby
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Help sighting in a scope

Hi Folks,

I'm in need of a gun vice for sighting in my rifle scopes but am a bit confused because most vices say for cleaning, maintenance, etc and not to be used as a gun rest.

I need something I can aim at a target and lock in place. What is recommended?

Thank you,
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Old May 1, 2019, 03:26 AM   #2
cptjack
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oh boy ... use sand bags ,no need to lock down,,,,take bolt out sight through barrel to see target ,then align scope to target ,will get you on target
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Old May 1, 2019, 06:48 AM   #3
NoSecondBest
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At first glance I thought you might be someone who never owned a gun before and had no knowledge about guns. Then I noticed that you joined here 2013. Your question is really off the mark on how to sight in a gun. First of all, you don't sight in your scope, you sight in the gun with a scope. No one sights a gun in using a vise or locks it down to sight it in. I'd suggest that you google something like "how to sight a gun in (I'd assume a rifle)" and watch the video. Do you own guns now? Have you ever been to a range and watched anyone shoot a rifle off a bench? I'm not trying to insult you or pick on you, but it sounds like you've never seen anyone shoot a rifle and sight one in. It's a very difficult question to answer using just text due to your lack of knowledge. Just watch a few videos and see if that helps. This isn't a very good place to start from scratch if you don't have any idea on how to do this.
Added comment: do you mean "how to bore sight a rifle scope?"
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Old May 1, 2019, 10:33 AM   #4
Don Fischer
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They are talking about bore sighting, best way to do it. One thing important to me is do it first at about 25 yds max. Sight it in and fire one shot. Go to the same hold and move the cross wire's to the bullet hole. Now got to 100 yds and fire one shot then aim again and again move the cross wires to the hole. Goes pretty good. Really need a bag under the fore end and the butt to hold the rifle still enough.
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Old May 1, 2019, 11:24 AM   #5
Murby
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I should have been more clear. I'm looking for a shooting vice that will allow me to lock the weapon down and remove human error for the finest of adjustments. I'm no longer a spring chicken and in my older years, I've noticed my heartbeat in the cross hairs.

I'm looking for a shooting vice but don't want to make the mistake of buying a piece of junk because I didn't do my research.
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Old May 1, 2019, 11:48 AM   #6
NoSecondBest
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Murby, i'm no spring chicken either. I've always been able to see my heartbeat in the cross hairs. Everyone can see their heartbeat in the cross hairs if their heart's beating. Sighting in with the gun locked in a vise isn't necessarily going to work out the best for you. It doesn't allow for the introduction of human factors like pressing on the trigger and holding the gun is some fashion. At age seventy I can shoot a gun on a bench using bags as well as I could at age twenty, and I'm a pretty decent shot...always have been. My personal opinion is that you'd be better off sighting it in using a good rest instead of using a vice, unless you plan on carrying a vice around with you every time you shoot the gun. Even top handgun and rifle shooters sight in with a rest. The only thing a mechanical device tells you is which load is best and the potential of the gun.....not the shooter.
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Old May 1, 2019, 12:26 PM   #7
Don Fischer
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Just because you research by asking a bunch of guy's in the internet what is best doesn't mean you won't get junk any way. I think you'll find that any vice you get will work, junk doesn't hang around long.
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Old May 1, 2019, 03:25 PM   #8
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To hold firmly

Quote:
I should have been more clear. I'm looking for a shooting vice that will allow me to lock the weapon down and remove human error for the finest of adjustments.
I understand what you are asking and there are a number of choices. I have portable and permanent Devices that I use. ….

I hope the following will help.
One potable use, I have a Hyskore and Tipton as well as Lyman make one.
On my two shop benches, I've installed a standard carpenter vise and padded the faces with stiff foam rubber, then lay a towel inside the jaws. When you say; Lock it down, you actually mean to hold it firmly while you a working your scope and watching your level. I do not shoot off either device as they make some that are dedicated for that. I believe Calwell makes one as well.

Be Safe !!!
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Last edited by Pahoo; May 1, 2019 at 03:31 PM.
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Old May 2, 2019, 07:06 PM   #9
langenc
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Go to your local club range some Sat and ask someone sighting in their rifle or that has the equip that looks like you speak of. Ask em to help you sight in your rifle.

Ive volunteered a couple times but too many shooters have their mind made up and dont want any help.

One fellow had a NEW, bore sighted, according to him shotgun and 3, $15 boxes of slugs.

The gun wasnt even on the paper at 25 yrds and in a while he left w/ $50 of emty slug cases.

He wouldnt move over a couple scope clicks at a time and only windage or elevation seperately, not both at once.

Bye, Bye. Now I can shoot.
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Old May 2, 2019, 09:08 PM   #10
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They make gun vices that will do what you want. But you can buy a bunch of ammo for what one costs. If you know what you're doing you can zero a rifle in 3-4 shots without one. These are good for people who are shooting lots of rounds from heavy kicking guns. It will eliminate most human error when developing handloads. But getting your rifle zeroed with one of these doesn't help you when shooting in the field. It is best to just use sandbags or some other improvised rest.

Seeing the sights move as your heart beats is normal, happens to everyone. You have to learn how to control that or shoot between heartbeats.

https://www.sportsmans.com/shooting/...yABEgLpG_D_BwE

A bipod will go a long way towards reducing human error and a decent one is a lot cheaper. This is a cheap one, but will do what you need if you don't have good sandbags.

https://www.amazon.com/CVLIFE-Inches...X7FR5J3YAVX8XQ
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Old May 3, 2019, 03:32 AM   #11
DukeConnor
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Caldwell lead sled
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Old May 4, 2019, 08:02 AM   #12
std7mag
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I understand what your looking for, and why your looking.
But...
I'd advise against it.
I've seen more bad habits coming from using one of these devices.
You are much better served with either a front rest, bag, or bipod and a rear bag.
I had your same issue with heartbeat moving the scope.
Using a rear bag really took that out.
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Old May 4, 2019, 10:24 AM   #13
Pahoo
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From shop bench, to shooting bench

Murby
I guess I took too much for granted, on your intentions. Yes, you can use a lead sled on setting up a scope, firing and making adjustments and that's fine but I try to limit my smithing work, to my shop benches. Then go to the range to confirm my shop results. If I have a problem, I stop and go back to my shop. I no longer shoot competition so I shoot/confirm off bags. If I have done my shop work properly, I can usually confirm in three rounds. I have seen some folk, using Lead-Sleds, at the range. They shoot, tweak little knobs and shoot again. They look pricey but never tell a man what to do with his wife or money..

Be Safe !!!
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Old May 6, 2019, 02:13 AM   #14
bamaranger
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"lock the weapon down"

I am left with the impression that the OP wants to firmly secure the rifle in a vise set up of some type, THEN zero and shoot groups.......NOT just boresight.

I have a pal that zeros using the Caldwell Lead Sled. When his rifle is strapped down at the forend in the vise, it shoots to different point of impact than when it is fired in the shooting vise and not strapped in. And when shot off bags, the rifle displays an even different POI. None of these POI's are radically different, but it is apparent that his rifle behaves differently in and out of the vise.

I'm thinking that if the OP is detecting movement in his sight picture while firing , it is not because of his age or a change in his "heartbeat" as he has suggested, one's heart beats as a younger fella too, right? I'm going to suggest that there is an unstable bag and bench arrangement from which he is shooting. Without intending to be overly critical, there may be some issues with his bench "technique" as well. A good solid bench and bag arrangement, and understanding and correct execution of it's use, should eliminate most if not all, excessive movement.
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Old May 6, 2019, 02:59 PM   #15
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What rifle is being scoped , what caliber and is it going to be used for hunting , target shooting or both . I like shooting off a Bi Pod and rear bag , keeps the rifle pretty steady . Locking the rifle down for a zero isn't a natural hold . Even how you mount the scope if not correct you could run out of adjustment . It's
alittle more then lock it down and adjust the crosshairs. Help sighting in a scope , the scope is on the rifle already , set up at a bench use sand bags under the stock and at the rear of the stock keeping the rifle as steady as possible , target set up at 100 yards if center fire cross hairs on the target , take the first shot . Hopefully it will be on paper , keeping the rifle pointed at the bullseye move the crosshairs to the bullet hole . The next shot you should be in the ballpark to fine tune . Most of us don't lock our rifles down .that's more like artillery.
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Old May 6, 2019, 05:17 PM   #16
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Murby,

Terminology is tripping up your search efforts. A gun vice is just a light clamp used for cleaning and may be used to mount a scope on a rifle and get the crosshairs vertical. What you seem to be asking for is called a machine rest, as distinct from a mere gun rest like the lead sled or a simple sandbag. The Ransom Rest for handguns, for example, is a machine rest.

Here's an inexpensive machine rest on Amazon. The company makes a better-looking one that Amazon doesn't currently show available, but their site has a description of it. They claim the Dangerous Game version will handle up to 416 Rigby. There is a YouTube demo of it here. I know of linear ball bearing recoil absorbing rests and others, but am not finding them online currently. If you get tempted to make your own, look at the ones in Hatcher's Notebook that look like mini-cannon carriages.

Here's a brief history of these devices.
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Old May 12, 2019, 09:05 AM   #17
Bart B.
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While machine rests, accuracy cradles, or whatever those return to battery rifle holding things are called, zero's obtained with them will be different than hand holding the rifle without artificial support. Same thing with shouldering the rifle as it rests on bags ot bipod atop a bench. Why?

Depending on how the rifle is held, its bore axis moves in different directions and amounts while the bullet goes through it. Where it points upon bullet exit is different than when the primer fires the round. Best example is big bore double rifles' bore axes crossing 10 to 20 yards down range; muzzle axes more than an inch apart.

With an accurate hunting rifle and ammo, a good marksman can get a good zero at 100 yards from offhand without a sling with 2 shots. And never putting a bullet dead center on a bullseye target.
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Old May 17, 2019, 08:26 AM   #18
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Here's an inexpensive rest.

https://www.amazon.com/Caldwell-Adju...sr=1-1-catcorr

I don't have one, but I've used a rear sandbag and bipod to the same effect. The rifle is put into the rest so it is immobile enough that it will not move during scope adjustment. The first shot goes on paper before adjustment, then I look through the scope and bring the crosshair to where ever that shot hit.

This does not require the rifle to remain immobile while firing. It only requires something stabile enough to bring the rifle back to the same POA after each shot.

Last edited by zukiphile; May 17, 2019 at 09:47 AM.
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Old May 18, 2019, 07:53 AM   #19
Bart B.
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If the bullet strikes 2" right and 4" low from point of aim at 100 yards, can't one adjust the scope 2 MOA left and 4 MOA up?

Remember that if your stuff shoots 1.5 MOA, the next shot after adjusting the sight can be up to 1.5 MOA away from the first one; in any direction. This assumes both were aimed at the same place when fired.
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Last edited by Bart B.; May 18, 2019 at 08:07 AM.
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Old May 18, 2019, 09:56 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zukifile
Here's an inexpensive rest.
Yes, but that's a shooting rest, not a machine rest. The shooter still has to have his hands on the rifle and press the trigger and all that will affect point of impact to some degree. A machine rest takes all human contact out of the picture. Even the trigger is depressed through a mechanical or hydraulic linkage of some kind.

Years ago in his book, Pistolsmithing, the late George Nonte drew a useful distinction between "mechanical accuracy" and " practical accuracy". Mechanical accuracy work is about addressing the collection of factors that make a gun mechanically repeatable from one shot to the next, always locking up the same way, always chambering rounds in the same position, always hitting the primer with the same force, always returning the barrel to the same position with respect to the rest of the gun. Practical accuracy work is about addressing the collection of things that make it easier for the shooter to operate the gun to hit the target where he wants to. Trigger work, putting on better sights, customizing the grips, adjusting the sights for the shooter's vision, etc. Mechanical factors vs. human factors. The machine rest is intended to assess the mechanical factors exclusively. Conventional rests from sandbags to the Caldwell Lead Sled all assess a mix of the mechanical and human influences. They are supposed to allow the shooter to eliminate hold wobble, but they never get there 100%. Imagine some poor fellow with Parkinson's syndrome trying to keep a gun completely still on one of those rests, much less shoot offhand. He could still operate a machine rest accurately, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart B.
If the bullet strikes 2" right and 4" low…
I usually make an initial adjust to match the first shot's error, assuming it looks "good", but after that I use Jim Owens's method of just adjusting only half-way to correction on additional shots, assuming they also look "good". That neatly complies with Nyquist's criteria to prevent oscillation (chasing the spotter) by limiting gain to <1 and incrementally approaches true zero (for your eyes and hold).

I learned this by screwing myself up one time. My first offhand shot at an SR target was a 7:00 full 9. It was an NMC event, so no sighters. I should have made the full adjustment but thought it looked like the shot had let go when the gun was wandering low and left. So I left the sights alone and got a second 9 in about the same place. So then I made the half adjustment but on my third shot really did let one go a little low and left and had a third 9, close to scratching 10, but not making it. Then I woke up and set the sight to put the first hole in the middle and proceded to finish with 10's and X's. So I was shooting well enough that day that I could have had a 99 instead of a 97 if I'd had my wits about me after the initial shot. We all have to learn somehow, I suppose.
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Old May 26, 2019, 07:59 AM   #21
Bagman34
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Had the same problem with my Barrett 50bmg. Recoil and concussion were so much I couldn't see POI without a spotter. Got a Hyscore Dangerous Game Machine Rest. Well made quality rest. I think it was about $250. Solved my problem.
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Old May 27, 2019, 03:23 PM   #22
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I saw a guy "lock his rifle down" with sandbags, a towel and duct tape.

Towel over barrel, duct tape around the bench and rifle. Seemed to work as a hill billy gun vice fairly well.
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Old May 27, 2019, 04:20 PM   #23
Bart B.
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Learned early to make sight changes no smaller than 1/3 the size groups you shoot.

The reason some Palma team members must use 1/2 MOA clicks on their rear metalic sight. Few, if any, keep all shots inside 1.5 MOA through 1000 yards
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Last edited by Bart B.; May 27, 2019 at 04:33 PM.
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