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Old November 24, 2017, 10:36 AM   #1
Glenn E. Meyer
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Trainers and gun choice

This is an interesting video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erejjFtnz64

It is a survey of pretty high end instructors at a Tom Givens event (www.rangemaster.com). Givens is one of the best out there and an instructor who has been through his program is probably pretty qualified.

A brief summary:

90 % carried 9mm
46% Glocks
26% M&P - a mix of C models and some Shields
3 HK, 3 Berettas, 2 Canik, 2 CZ, 2 sigs, 1 1911

No XD

74 % loaded with Gold Dots, HST - just a few had Critical Duty.

68% of the rounds were standard .

Most of the Glocks had some mods beyond just sights.

Most instructors carried some med supplies.

-- I also note that the recent IDPA Nationals, the most popular gun was a Glock (34 and 19s) followed by M&Ps.

Of course, carry what you want but it's interesting info from a well informed an practiced set of samples.

I think we can put the nail in the coffin of only carry a 45 ACP, blah, blah. Givens used to say that until his Glock 34 came along (sorry, Tom).
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Old November 24, 2017, 02:21 PM   #2
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Makes sense. Instructors shoot a lot, so two of your major factors are cost of ammunition and cost of maintenance. Basically, you want the cheapest effective ammunition possible and a pistol that breaks rarely and is cheap enough to keep a backup copy.

I have to admit I'm surprised to see the 1911 so I underepresented, though it is possibly the most maintenance intensive of the lot.
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Old November 24, 2017, 03:34 PM   #3
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I agree that cost plays a huge factor in carrying 9mm. Most people have budgets (myself included).

In fact, the entire reason I just bought a 9mm was to go and do some defensive handgun courses. The course I signed up for in January requires 1400 rounds. The follow up course they give in May is another 1400 rounds. This particular school has drills day given throughout the year, each day requires 400 rounds.

Ya know to get adept with a firearm you need to shoot a lot of rounds, and do some training and it costs $.

There are significant cost savings with 9mm that can not be argued with.

That being said... I can't wait for my Gold Dots to arrive. I bought them from Brownells they were $45 .. They must be space age
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Old November 24, 2017, 06:35 PM   #4
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"...Most instructors carried some med supplies..." Using 'em without training and permission(assuming consciousness on the part of the victim) can get you in a world of legal trouble. Even if you're an off duty EMT you can be held liable if something goes wrong. Moreso if an off duty EMT does more than just first aid.
You may be the one needing those medical supplies. Rendering aid to injured at the scene is the responsible thing to do. I'll take my chances giving medical aid rather than watch someone bleed out because I'm too cowardly to help. Life comes with risks. If it didn't we wouldn't need worry about self-defense.
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Old November 24, 2017, 06:47 PM   #5
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As the gun is to protect yourself and love ones, the medical supplies can be seen similarly. You don't have to use them on unknown victims (start the good Samaritan argument, yet again) but if you are shot or you SO or kid, nice to have a tourniquet.

If you won't apply a tourniquet or try CPR to a stranger, if it can be safely done - that's your decision.
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Old November 25, 2017, 12:34 AM   #6
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The gun you carry should be the most powerful you can shoot fast and accurately.
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Old November 25, 2017, 01:30 AM   #7
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how many of the trainers are sponsored by Glock?
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Old November 25, 2017, 07:02 AM   #8
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Shouldn't they lead by example and carry a safe gun?

In a training environment, Glocks are great, but when they get used, it seems like ND's happen in ways that are never covered or experienced much in training.

If this seems like trolling, just delete my post.

It is my opinion that there is some value in showing your students that you carry a thumb safety gun like the: 320, M&P, XD or 1911. The value is that a trained shooter with a thumb safety is just as fast, but that a gun grabber is likely unready for the safety.
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Old November 25, 2017, 07:59 AM   #9
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90 % carried 9mm
46% Glocks
A few years back, someone (Tamara IIRC) ran a survey on this exact issue. All but one instructor (Leatham, again IIRC) carried 9mm. Most were Glocks, with a few Sigs in the mix. Leatham was the only one who carried a 1911.

It makes sense. .45 ammunition is expensive, the 1911 is a bit of a maintenance queen, and the .40 S&W loading is headed for eventual marginalization with the FBI going back to 9mm.

The more important lesson is these instructors don't seem to buy into the hype about fancy new loadings or designs. They're sticking with what works, and with what the majority of their students use. I'm no fan of the Glock, but when I taught, I owned and shot a 19 because that's what over half my students would be using.
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Old November 25, 2017, 08:09 AM   #10
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Interesting video. I'd be interesting to see the type of holster and carry method the instructors use to carry their chosen firearms.
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Old November 25, 2017, 08:24 AM   #11
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I have never been one to follow trends as to what the rest are carrying. My preference for a 1911 is simply the way it feels and balances in my hand. I love the feel. Whether more power, more bullets, more whatever in reality does not matter to me. I feel comfortable carrying a 22, a 9mm, a 38, or a .357 as well as those are the other calibers I have. As a matter of fact I am out Of state for thanksgiving and I only have my Keltec pmr 30 for ccw with extra mags.

Most shooters never train enough due to budgets, time constraints , or lack of places to shoot and when the time come that you are in such a high stress life and death situation whatever you are carrying is not enough and you wish your gun was a Hollywood model that held 1000 rounds in your magazine.

The most important thing is that your firearms can provide you with a false sense of security which in turn allows you to make decisions you normally wouldn't.
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Old November 25, 2017, 01:20 PM   #12
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Quote:
It is a survey of pretty high end instructors at a Tom Givens event (www.rangemaster.com). Givens is one of the best out there and an instructor who has been through his program is probably pretty qualified.

A brief summary:

90 % carried 9mm
46% Glocks
26% M&P - a mix of C models and some Shields
3 HK, 3 Berettas, 2 Canik, 2 CZ, 2 sigs, 1 1911
seems like with the amount of compact 1911s being sold those statistics don't really reflect reality
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Old November 25, 2017, 01:33 PM   #13
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What reality is that? Certainly Glock and M&P sales are far greater than compact 1911s.

Compact 1911s are not the most reliable of the breed. Some of the instructors at Givens' event have mentioned that to me.
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Old November 25, 2017, 01:39 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
What reality is that? Certainly Glock and M&P sales are far greater than compact 1911s.

Compact 1911s are not the most reliable of the breed. Some of the instructors at Givens' event have mentioned that to me.
I did say "seems like"...

I just know there are a lot of them sold, compact 1911s are a popular choice for CC.

I'll have to ask in return what reality is that, that 1911s are not the most reliable? Seems like they wouldn't sell if they did, I have a CCO thats never jammed. I've heard 3" barrel are finicky though so maybe issues are limited to those?
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Old November 25, 2017, 01:41 PM   #15
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I have never been one to follow trends as to what the rest are carrying. My preference for a 1911 is simply the way it feels and balances in my hand. I love the feel.
I feel the same way about the Hi-Power; but even at moderate (from my perspective) round counts of 30,000-40,000, it is just a lot of work to keep them running compared to a Glock, M&P, etc.
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Old November 25, 2017, 02:01 PM   #16
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It would interesting to debate what reality means. I posted a fact from an event. It indicates that at least this group has abandoned the only 45 ACP mantra we heard a few years ago. So what is reality.

As far as the 3" guns, those were suspect, IIRC. My SW 1911Sc Commander was finicky at first. It unstaked its plunger twice and had to go back to SW. It's been reliable lately though. I found it just a tad big for EDC even though it is a lighter gun. If that's all I had to carry, it would be ok with me.

The recoil doesn't tear my arm off (private joke).
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Old November 25, 2017, 02:29 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
It would interesting to debate what reality means. I posted a fact from an event. It indicates that at least this group has abandoned the only 45 ACP mantra we heard a few years ago. So what is reality.

As far as the 3" guns, those were suspect, IIRC. My SW 1911Sc Commander was finicky at first. It unstaked its plunger twice and had to go back to SW. It's been reliable lately though. I found it just a tad big for EDC even though it is a lighter gun. If that's all I had to carry, it would be ok with me.

The recoil doesn't tear my arm off (private joke).
oh I'll backpedal enough to say I'm not trying to debate whats reality or prove anything. I agree the statistic you shared is a fact from an event and its also my opinion that 9mm is the most common caliber for carry, and I'm suggesting that from my own observation.... that and it just makes sense its cheaper and just as effective as anything.

I'm a little skeptical that Glock is still the dominate gun in public use, lots of quality polymer striker fired guns to choose from these days that are just as reliable and I'm skeptical that a 1911 is not reliable enough for carry.

gun stores are not stocking them if they aren't selling them, and it just doesn't seem to make sense to me to buy a compact 1911 as a safe queen, its just my observation that they are still popular enough. I'm also still curious if high end instructors are sponsored by Glock and how that would influence their selection for such an event and their response at such an event for what they personally carry.
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Old November 25, 2017, 02:33 PM   #18
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About safe queens, most folks with permits don't carry much anyway. So I wonder if there is a differential of gun types that permit folks buy vs. how much they carry.

I'd might bet that the small pocket guns get carried the most. I don't know. I don't know if instructors get sponsored. High end competitors do and then swear that the Springlock ZN&P is the best gun ever.
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Old November 25, 2017, 04:18 PM   #19
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I've heard 3" barrel are finicky though so maybe issues are limited to those?
For the most part, yes. Going from a 5" to a 4.25" barrel doesn't take much doing. Going to a 3" barrel requires a different approach to the recoil-spring, plunger, and so on. I've never really come across an Officer 1911 I could recommend for carry based on reliability issues.
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Old November 25, 2017, 05:08 PM   #20
Bartholomew Roberts
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I'm a little skeptical that Glock is still the dominate gun in public use, lots of quality polymer striker fired guns to choose from these days that are just as reliable and I'm skeptical that a 1911 is not reliable enough for carry.
Well, there is “reliable enough to carry” and there is “reliable enough to train with regularly.” I don’t doubt there are pistols that are reliable enough to carry but when you are shooting 2700 rounds in a three day course or 5000 rounds in a five day, and then doing that four or five times a year, they are more maintenance intensive. I love Hi-Powers. They are works of art. Glocks have no attraction to me. It is like owning a hammer. But I carry a Glock; because I can afford to train with it and keep running on my shooting schedule and I don’t have the skills or money to do that with a Hi-Power.
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Old November 25, 2017, 05:22 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
I'd might bet that the small pocket guns get carried the most.
Absolutely...

A: of all my friends that carry I only know three that carry 100% of the time.

B: I myself am working up to 100% of the time, but still have times I'm unarmed

C: Two of my friends who carry have and carry the Ruger LCP. One has a Glock 26. When I carry --> an Airweight 442

Small guns get carried in, "conceal states." If my state was open carry -- Smith Wesson M&P 9 in a heartbeat would be my carry gun
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Old November 25, 2017, 05:26 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
For the most part, yes. Going from a 5" to a 4.25" barrel doesn't take much doing. Going to a 3" barrel requires a different approach to the recoil-spring, plunger, and so on. I've never really come across an Officer 1911 I could recommend for carry based on reliability issues.
Agree, once you go to a 3" barrel most manufacturers that sells their compact 1911's their guns have issues because of the physics and internal changes that occur. Now I am not basing this on pure scientific data or researched data, just on pure lip service of friends, family and shooters at the range range that have taken the plunge on purchasing a compact 1911. On the other hand I own 2 1911 Springfields, one a full size and the other a champion with the 4" barrel and both function as they should.
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Old November 25, 2017, 07:07 PM   #23
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My gun works, I carry it daily and the ammo is reliable. If it breaks, I have an extra that is exactly like the first. Other than the grips, its bone stock... my ammo is selection consist of Federal 9bp 115 which most considered outdated. I don't follow trends and the path I walk is paved with stone of my own making.

I am not really a glock person but I am not surprised that a majority of instructors carry them. Glock seems to do everything pretty darn well.
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Old November 25, 2017, 07:30 PM   #24
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In a training environment, Glocks are great, but when they get used, it seems like ND's happen in ways that are never covered or experienced much in training.

If this seems like trolling, just delete my post.

It is my opinion that there is some value in showing your students that you carry a thumb safety gun like the: 320, M&P, XD or 1911. The value is that a trained shooter with a thumb safety is just as fast, but that a gun grabber is likely unready for the safety.
I think you make a good point. ND risk is going to vary a lot on training and experience, but also usage type.
I think the police data tend to show that the increases they see in striker/no safety guns, and they do see more, is mostly in older officers who had been using guns with safeties who were transitioned to guns without safeties, and less so, if at all, from younger officers starting right out with glocks.

That said there are also really variable types of usage. If you are putting on your holster and holstering your gun in the comfort and privacy of your home, and reversing the process in your home say 365 times a year you can afford to take your time. if you live in unfriendly jurisdiction, and this includes areas where you have to remove your handgun and lock it say in your car one a day, involving manipulation in a car, or securing it in your backpack or briefcase unloaded before getting on mass transit that is an additional set of hundred of manipulations, and ones perhaps made more complex due to need for being discreet -- and for need to unload and load chamber as well. In that case a safety may reduce risk of ND. Not to mention there are places where an ND would be worse both due to density increasing risk of hurting someone, and also in being detected and in legal ramifications even if no one is hurt.

It is pretty clear that good practice and many/most people's needs make an external safety unnecessary and perhaps more harmful than helpful. But for some other people considerations may argue in favor of an external safety even on a striker.

Just as for some of us holster type and holster positon considerations might be dominated by draw speed and comfort factors, and for others it might rationally dominated by printing/showing, retention and reholstering ease considerations.
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Old November 25, 2017, 07:31 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts View Post
Well, there is “reliable enough to carry” and there is “reliable enough to train with regularly.” I don’t doubt there are pistols that are reliable enough to carry but when you are shooting 2700 rounds in a three day course or 5000 rounds in a five day, and then doing that four or five times a year, they are more maintenance intensive. I love Hi-Powers. They are works of art. Glocks have no attraction to me. It is like owning a hammer. But I carry a Glock; because I can afford to train with it and keep running on my shooting schedule and I don’t have the skills or money to do that with a Hi-Power.
^^^This

I train with my Glock 17, but I occasionally carry it. I carry my LC9, but I occasionally train with it. I know my Glock will shoot 1000 rounds without an issue. I know my LC9 will shoot all three mags I carry without an issue.

Pick the right tool for the job....

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