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Old March 13, 2015, 12:55 PM   #26
btmj
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My guess is his thumb.
Let's keep this civil guys.

Kraig is bringing a unique perspective to the discussion. I find I agree with some, but not all of it.
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Old March 13, 2015, 02:53 PM   #27
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I've tried pants pocket carry with four handguns,,,

I've tried pants pocket carry with four handguns,,,
  • 22/25-PLY
  • LCR
  • LC9
  • S&W 36

There is no way I can get a quick draw,,,
Even with my loosest old-man pants.

The side pocket of my jacket though,,,
That's another story altogether.

My LCP (with a pocket holster) disappears in that pocket,,,
It nestles deep in the bottom and stays oriented,,,
And my hand can be casually gripping it.

More importantly, it's common to see people walking with their hands in their jacket pocket,,,
I don't commonly see people walking with their hands in their pants pockets.

Come the hot Oklahoma summer I'll have to shift my methodology,,,
But as long as the temperatures permits a light jacket,,,
My front jacket pocket is where I like my handgun.

When I see a woman wearing her purse strap cross-body,,,
And her hand is in the purse while she's walking,,,
I would bet a $100 bill her hand is on a gun.

And I do see that quite often.

Aarond

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Old March 13, 2015, 04:48 PM   #28
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If your trigger finger is pointing and not on the trigger, what finger is on the trigger?
Quote:
My guess is his thumb.
Since we don't put our finger on the trigger until we are ready to shoot, regardless of how you carry, the trigger finger is out of the trigger guard.

It just naturally fits under the cylinder of a revolver, or, on the frame under the slide of a pistol.

Such placement allows for pointing the finger, its natural, safe, and assist in point shooting.
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Old March 13, 2015, 06:22 PM   #29
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This thread turned out to be more informative than I expected when I read the title. I'd appreciate responses that cover the role of a good pocket holster with a pocket carry revolver. Can a good pocket holster make the point and shoot option more viable? Or should I banish that thought?
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Old March 13, 2015, 06:27 PM   #30
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As to the man who walked out onto his porch in the middle of the night after being awakened by knocking on his door and seeing no one through the peephole -- wasn't his first mistake leaving the safety of his home knowing someone unseen is out there? He could have monitored the peephole and windows, and he could have called 911 if he was concerned that someone was in trouble. Instead, he abandoned his family and his safety. Sure, he has every right to step onto his porch whenever he wishes. but if he believed there was enough danger to warrant doing so with a brandished gun, tactically he was a fool.
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Old March 14, 2015, 01:12 PM   #31
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"...My spell checker sucks..." Nope. 'Banishing' is how it's spelt. snicker.
Spell Check doesn't find words spelt correctly. Like 'to' used as 'too'(or vice versa) or two or 'then' instead of 'than' or 'there', 'they're' or 'their' used incorrectly either.
In any case, brandishing isn't the same thing as drawing but not waving the thing around. Brandishing is drawing and waving the thing around.
"...what finger is on the trigger..." No fingers on trigger until and/or you have to shoot. Fingers unnecessarily on triggers cause accidents.
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Old March 14, 2015, 02:21 PM   #32
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I've met and shot with Kraig.
I've been shooting 50 years,and when Kraig speaks,I listen.
You might consider it a shovel full of ore to pan out,but there will be some Gold in your pan.

He is a Gentleman who gives of himself to help shooters and the shooting sports.

Unless you are older than about 49,real people with real guns were trying to kill him before you were born.He has a lifetime of Military and Law Enforcement experience.The fact that he has survived it is Credibility.
IMO,some have identified themselves as immature disrespectful punks that need to grow up or go back to their video games.Why focus on a typo?

IMO,for a person who carries,the issue of readiness versus staying out of trouble is worthy of discussion.Its good to sort it out ahead of time.

IMO,a coat,jacket,or vest pocket is worthy of consideration.I might consider some form of holster attached inside the pocket,for cleanliness and security.It would need to draw dependably.That would cover 8 or 9 months out of the year.You can always wear a windbreaker in Wyoming!

Anyway,Thanks,Kraig.
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Old March 14, 2015, 06:11 PM   #33
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I wouldn't feel comfortable clearing the cover garment and gripping the G26 unless there was a clear, imminent threat. I would feel comfortable gripping my 642 in my pocket if I saw a potential threat. Can I draw my 642 out of my pocket if I've already got a good grip on it faster than I could clear a cover garment and draw my G26 or S&W M60 from an OWB holster? I think so but should time it to be sure. There are other factors involved such as drawing while seated but this is food for thought.
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Old March 14, 2015, 07:45 PM   #34
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T. O'Heir, I would guess Irish? East Coast? AYE?

Well anyway, the two places noted, gas station/ATM Machine? My Personal Vehicle is a Security Jeep, I own it, it has my Sons Company on it.

Not ever had any kind of problem in using this 08 Jeep, or the older one.

Same vehicle, parked behind the Technicians Vehicle, who would be repairing an ATM Machine, me armed Security, on foot, no problems there, except some one pulling up behind me "Is it down?" Hello! In the dark, my vehicle lights up like a rainbow.

In Gas Station, hold pump handle, make sure no drips, stand away from filler.
Come close enough, you will get drowned.
"Can I help you" has a whole new meaning!

We used to do an armed Patrol at a gated community, I did the week ends, met all the local Deputy's, at one time or another.

I lived close to those homes, one night, me not working, had reason to call 911. No I did not go outside, but I was inside, armed!

The Dispatcher made sure I left any weapons upstairs, when I greeted the SIX! Deputy's. Including a Sgt. Oh yes they knew who lived in my house!

Some one pulled open my locked screen door at 1AM. I heard the snap as it opened, and the scrape as the door went over the rubber mat.

The house was still secure, they checked the down stairs, the Garage.

"Good night" Keep Safe. All was well. And no, you do not go outside with a gun, after calling 911!
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Old March 15, 2015, 02:12 PM   #35
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The whole premise of removing a firearm from its holster in anticipation of an attack which is represented only by suspicious circumstances is very troubling.. to me at least. Doing anything with a firearm that can be observed by others can have some very serious implications. Just speaking for myself, if I cannot clearly articulate the existence of jeopardy, I am not likely to be doing anything at all with a firearm.

As far as the explanation of what point shooting is in this thread.. it seems to be a rather literal interpretation and reminiscent of the early 1900's. I do not subscribe to that method as the reliance on pointing your finger can be a precarious endeavor during ongoing fighting. I prefer to rely on intuitive pointing of a firearm without the use of a finger as a guide or sights. I only use the end of the barrel is as it remains below eye level but within my field of view.
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Old March 15, 2015, 03:20 PM   #36
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Fire Forged, good description, a suggestion, if we are talking semi auto pistols, where you can change the original sights.

I have all TruGlo sights on my pistols. These fiber optic night sights are the bees knees!

Even in day light/bright sunlight! As you push your gun forward, from a draw, even not focusing on the sights, as in looking over the top of them.

Those bright green dots (my favorite color) show up incredibly well.

This is using your peripheral vision. If your punch draw is in your actual sight line, even better.
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Old March 15, 2015, 04:12 PM   #37
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I would really like to try tru-glo on my own guns for that purpose as well. I have handled several pistols (not mine) with tru-glo and I agree that it is easily superior while point shooting.
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Old March 15, 2015, 05:49 PM   #38
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It remains true that there is a time to have your finger on the trigger and there is a time to have your finger outside the trigger guard.

Pointing the finger along the side of the handgun is a trigger finger discipline that may be easily over ridden by panic if necessary.
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Old March 15, 2015, 08:35 PM   #39
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warn parties in both gas pump and ATM to back off. If compliance is happening then all appears to be good. If non compliance then all bets are off and brandishing is in order.
Sounds like behavior designed to let an attorney tap your bank account dry. It's a good bet that any ATM or set of gas pumps is monitored by video, giving an innocent person slam-dunk evidence of unwarranted assault by brandishing. One's sidearm is for shooting an assailant threatening your life or health or the life or health of another or (in some jurisdictions) your property. It would be wise to draw it only when such a legitimate threat exists. Odds are a jury won't find it reasonable to feel so threatened if a person crowds your comfort zone by a foot. And, good luck issuing orders about where a person can stand in a public space where he has a right to be. In fact, under Stand Your Ground doctrine, once you brandish a handgun to an innocent, you've granted him license to shoot you.
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Old March 16, 2015, 05:55 AM   #40
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Please note, when mounting the rear portion of TruGlo sights (the rear sight)
for some reason, in producing their rear Glock 9mm sights, TruGlo do not conform to the center positioning that the plastic factory sights, factory mounted do.

Looking down on the rear TruGlo sight, mount it a fraction to the right. Prior to your test firing. You can then tweak it on the range if required.

I use a cardboard target, with 2" black dots, at around 7 yards. For alignment.
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Old March 16, 2015, 07:09 AM   #41
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Quote:
I've tried pants pocket carry with four handguns,,,

22/25-PLY
LCR
LC9
S&W 36


There is no way I can get a quick draw,,,
Even with my loosest old-man pants.
Try the very good-looking pants sold here: CCW Breakaways.

You almost have to see them in person to understand how they work, but they are worth every penny for pocket carry. Very fast, very flexible, very well concealed even when carrying guns a little too large for traditional pocket carry. You can easily draw from the pocket while sitting down, too.

And did I mention they look good? Just regular nice slacks.

Several of my friends use them and love them. They don't make 'em for girls is the only reason I don't use them myself, but I surely would if they did. They are that good.

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Old March 16, 2015, 07:13 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by fireforged
I have handled several pistols (not mine) with tru-glo and I agree that it is easily superior while point shooting.
You use the sights when you're "point shooting"? You have a very different definition of "point shooting" than is commonly used.

Quote:
Point shooting, also known as target focused shooting or instinctive shooting, is a method of shooting a firearm quickly and accurately that does not rely on the use of the sights in close quarters, life-threatening situations where there is the greatest chance being shot.
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Old March 16, 2015, 11:30 AM   #43
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Point shooting? Is pointing your pistol at a target, I have never, ever done any good when "Hip shooting" A six round portion of the Security Officer stupid yearly Re-Ql. That a untrained Monkey could pass.

What I think point shooting is, draw, as quick as possible, push pistol forward, press trigger. This does not put my pistol at belt level, but rather more at mid chest, and my lower vision can see that blink of the TruGlo green bright dots!

The difference of aimed, up to eye level, is dependent on target/aggressor distance.
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Old March 16, 2015, 12:08 PM   #44
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A huge majority of sd shooting occurs about 5-6 feet. Close to arms length.

At that distance you run the risk of the bandit grabbing or pushing at your handgun.

Hip shooting training is a valuable tool that should be practiced.

To understand point shooting where I talk of pointing the finger as a guide can be demonstrated by changing the targets.

For example switching from a USPSA target with a threat target, or a target that has the bandit holding a gun or knife.

Take your student and have him fire at the USPSA target. He/she will tend to point and shoot center mass.

Now switch the target. You'll see that the shots drift to the picture of the threat, gun/knife, because one tends to look at the threat.

Of course this only works if the student doesn't know you are testing him/her. If you give advance notice then they will subconsciously try to shoot center mass ignoring the threat on the target.
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Old March 16, 2015, 06:09 PM   #45
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You use the sights when you're "point shooting"? You have a very different definition of "point shooting" than is commonly used
No, I dont.. did you read what I said about it? I intuitively point by using the end of the barrel which remains in my field of vision ( below eye level) as I focus on the threat. The gun is in my periphery and a brightly colored fiber only aides in the process. I am not using a sight picture

This is that I said:
Quote:
As far as the explanation of what point shooting is in this thread.. it seems to be a rather literal interpretation and reminiscent of the early 1900's. I do not subscribe to that method as the reliance on pointing your finger can be a precarious endeavor during ongoing fighting. I prefer to rely on intuitive pointing of a firearm without the use of a finger as a guide or sights. I only use the end of the barrel as it remains below eye level but within my field of view.
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Old March 17, 2015, 12:16 PM   #46
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I've met and shot with Kraig.
I've been shooting 50 years,and when Kraig speaks,I listen. ...
I mean no disrespect to you or your friend, but an appeal to gray hair (which I have as well, thanks) is not necessarily an appeal to reason or expertise.

For every wizened old sage in our age group, there are probably a thousand or more grizzled-old-coots, who just spout nonsense. Note the ignorant geezers spouting nonsense about "knockdown power", for instance. Consider also the "young turks" who repeat that drivel. Doesn't seem like youth necessarily confers an advantage either.

Knowing the difference between gold, fools-gold or dirt requires an appeal to something other than age, hence age becomes a non-factor.

Reason, logic, evidence and demonstrable fact are enough. An appeal to something else is a con-man's dodge.
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Old March 17, 2015, 12:52 PM   #47
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... I intuitively point by using the end of the barrel which remains in my field of vision ( below eye level) as I focus on the threat. The gun is in my periphery and a brightly colored fiber only aides in the process. I am not using a sight picture ...
I dunno ... sounds suspiciously like a "flash sight picture", if you have any perception of the brightly-colored fiber (optic).

Point-shooting more typically refers to any kind of kinesthetic alignment of the gun ... of the type one gets when pointing at an object, although not literally pointing with a finger.

Maybe you are splitting the difference in between?
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Old March 17, 2015, 01:08 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by zombietactics
... sounds suspiciously like a "flash sight picture",...
Yup. The flash sight picture (Morrison, Gregory, The Modern Technique of the Pistol, Gunsite Press, 1991, pp 87 - 88, emphasis added):
Quote:
...The flash sight-picture involves a glimpse of the sight-picture sufficient to confirm alignment....The target shooter’s gaze at the front sight has proven inappropriate for the bulk of pistol fighting. However, the practical shooter must start at this level and work up to the flash, which becomes reflexive as motor skills are refined. With practice, a consistent firing platform and firing stroke align the sights effortlessly. This index to the target eventually becomes an instantaneous confirmation of the sight-picture.

...Using the flash sight-picture programs the reflex of aligning the weapon’s sights with the target instantly....There is good reason for sights: one needs them to align the barrel with the target reliably....
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Old March 17, 2015, 11:12 PM   #49
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Well,Zombie.....

We do agree grey hair does not imply a resume.

I think maybe you are making a whole lot of assumptions and there is a whole lot you don't know about about the people under some of that grey hair.

And they don't feel any real good reason to tell you about it.

Last edited by Evan Thomas; March 18, 2015 at 12:06 AM. Reason: let's not get personal.
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Old March 18, 2015, 12:07 AM   #50
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There's no need to get personal, folks. It's fine to disagree, but let's base our arguments on facts and reasoning, OK?
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