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View Poll Results: Would you inquire about a NFA Weapon
I would ask for a Form 4 2 2.11%
I would inform authorities 2 2.11%
Just let them be 91 95.79%
Voters: 95. You may not vote on this poll

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Old January 10, 2010, 11:01 PM   #26
RAnb
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When you feel like it, come on down to Florida and tell them to pack sand.
No thanks.

I was surprised when the TSA inspector did not recognize the silencers in my gun case when he visually inspected them, but only did when the case went through the x-ray machine. I was equally surprised when the airport police asked if they were military weapons after showing them a retired ID card and if I had a license for them.

They had no idea what the ATF form 1's were, but as long as I showed them a document, it seemed to be ok with them. I wrote the TSA a few times about this but got no satisfaction.

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Old January 10, 2010, 11:05 PM   #27
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So are the two (so far) cop callers going to admit to how they voted and explain why? Or were they just jerking our chains? Why would anyone call the cops about something like this?

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Old January 11, 2010, 01:32 AM   #28
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So RAnb you had to go and ruin my day. Here I was feeling all warm and fuzzy about the fine job the TSA folks are doing, and you go and disillusion me about how careful and alert they are. Sounds about like the last time I flew and took my match M14 with me on the silver bird. They had absolutely no idea what they were looking at, just stared a minute abd closed the case and passed it on to the freight handlers.
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Old January 11, 2010, 03:01 AM   #29
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I wouldnt ask anyone for thier paperwork..i might ask to shoot it though!
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Old January 11, 2010, 04:10 AM   #30
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Sorry medalguy.

Ditto friggin ditto mrnkc130

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Old January 11, 2010, 04:56 AM   #31
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Ask em for a form4?

I would be asking them for a turn to shoot it.
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Old January 11, 2010, 05:53 AM   #32
gyvel
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Surprise! In the state of Florida, NFA items are illegal unless properly registered with ATF. Therefore a LEO may request to see proof of your documentation. You can show him at the range or ATF can show him at the station, while you and your NFA items are "detained".
Negative. You are only required to show your Form 4 to an ATF agent. If you are arrested (not detained), you have a really good case for a lawsuit for false arrest. In fact, you don't even have to show it to the judge if it goes as far as a trial. (And all of this comes from a retired Federal agent.)
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Old January 11, 2010, 08:29 AM   #33
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My opinion of FL gun laws FWIW

I lived in FL for 3yrs. Near Jacksonville, ya'll, and 2 years in SW FL,near Ft. Myers. SW FL, the other Midwest. The gun laws in FL are a bit more liberal than IN. The range I use to go to was near Punta Gorda and the F&W folks were very polite and relaxed. Furthermore, if a person did something bone headed they would call a Conservation Officer. If you didn't police your brass and pick up your trash downrange you would here about it. In ~30-40 outings when I took my NFA toys I never had a word said. Except when I took my M-60E1. The range officer spent most of his time controlling the waiting line of the 20+ people waiting to play. I went through 1800rds of 7.62 that day!!! The Range Officer asked that next time I come, please call him at home first so that he could get there early and get his turn. LOL
Bottom Line, FL is pretty decent for Gun Rights. Slightly better than IN.
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Old January 11, 2010, 08:58 AM   #34
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At the range I shoot at there are lots of folks shooting full-auto and with silencers. You've got to be kidding if you think I'm going to play BATFE agent and walk up and down the firing line inspecting people's paperwork!
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Old January 11, 2010, 09:24 AM   #35
Tommy Vercetti
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I've gotten complimented on mine, even had people ask how to go about buying them legally, I've told them they have to apply for the license from the ATF and pay for the stamp
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Old January 11, 2010, 06:11 PM   #36
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Negative. You are only required to show your Form 4 to an ATF agent. If you are arrested (not detained), you have a really good case for a lawsuit for false arrest. In fact, you don't even have to show it to the judge if it goes as far as a trial. (And all of this comes from a retired Federal agent.)
You know, I would really like to hear from someone that has ACTUALLY done this and hear how it worked out. This comes from someone that thinks it is really a stupid way to handle an encounter with a LEO while walking around with a machinegun.
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Old January 11, 2010, 06:37 PM   #37
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I'm just currious - who here voted for "inform the authorities"? Two folks did. Why not also call the authorities because when you see people with handguns shooting at a range? I mean, come on, let's be consistant.
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Old January 11, 2010, 07:36 PM   #38
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Spoilers and lurkers

In every data sampling you anticipate certain outliers. That's why the 95% Distribution is 95% the 5% are the outliers and those who just want to be contrary for the sake of being contrary. BTW I have seen someone do this, ask for a Form 4. The guy with the suppressor just looked at the gentleman making the request and laughed. The requester continued to bug the guy with the suppressor. After the 3rd request the suppressor guy laughed from the gut as he told him to F*&^ Off. The observers all just went back to shooting....and snickered. The requester left....quietly.
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Old January 11, 2010, 08:32 PM   #39
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If someone not in authority (range officer at private club for example) asked for my ATF forms (confidential tax forms), then I might respond that I will show my ATF form 1's if he shows me his latest 1040 income tax forms. That might teach the bastard a lesson in manners.

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Old January 11, 2010, 09:16 PM   #40
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I showed some guy the form 4 for my Uzi once. He looked at it and saw the model B SA serial number prefix. The ex-purt that he was he started spouting some crap about how it wasn't a proper submachinegun because of this that and the other. I got out the copy of the from 4 from my gun case and said "The ATF says it's a submachinegun, it fires full auto, it's a pre 86 conversion."

He didn't ask to see it, I showed it to him to shut him up.
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Old January 11, 2010, 10:47 PM   #41
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This comes from someone that thinks it is really a stupid way to handle an encounter with a LEO while walking around with a machinegun.
I'm not making a judgment on whether this is stupid or not. I'm just relating what the law says, and also recounting the personal experiences of a retired Federal agent friend of mine who has made hundreds of court appearances.

The point is that, yes, an LEO can make demands (as many of them do thinking they are above the law), but if you get arrested you have a dandy case for false arrest and nice lawsuit.
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Old January 13, 2010, 09:26 PM   #42
Mr. Davis
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Are you kidding? OP, are you implying that any reasonable gun owner should immediately assume that someone shooting a full auto is doing so illegally, and should call the authorities just to be sure?

I'm going to start calling INS on every Mexican I see. You know, just to be sure.
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Old January 13, 2010, 10:09 PM   #43
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By that rationale, shouldnt you ask every shooter at the range if they are a convicted felon - "just in case"?

As long as its legal at the range, and they arent behaving in an unsafe manner - let them be. If they are behaving oddly, pack up and leave.
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Old January 14, 2010, 12:53 AM   #44
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I consider it very rude to question a person with a suppressor/SBS/SBR/machine gun, if it isn't your duty to do so as an RSO or ATF agent.

Frankly, the range where I RSO has no rules about safety officers proactively seeking NFA tax stamp proof. Just the same gun handling rules as any other shooter.

I think people do it as a function of jealousy. From the angle of "hey, if I can't have that easily, I'm going to make it a PITA for you to have it too."

Kinda like how some police think they have to check for CCW permits for everyone they see carrying a firearm, despite the legality of doing so.
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Old January 14, 2010, 02:26 AM   #45
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Public club no, private club maybe. also my first question would be can i shoot it
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Old January 14, 2010, 10:50 AM   #46
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just questioned a guy last weekend who had a taurus 1911 (clearly saw the taurus stamp on the slide) that was dumping full mags with one trigger pull. I originally went up to him to help him get the gun fixed (he was in early 20's) then he went off that he had a stamp for it and did a song and dance then i asked to see his paperwork (my buddy is a RO and was standing right next to me) then he said he just moved from georgia and didn't transfer it yet, then we advised him that was illegal and then he said he was working on it and gave some made up name ( i am on a first name basis with the BATF in Tucson and Phoenix and know about 99% of them).

at that point he packed up and left and then on his way out we made sure to get his plate number and I made a call to the BATF and the sheriff to report him.

i did all this to help our range out since we don't want folks breaking the law and getting the ranch in trouble. we have had yahoo's in the past come out with unregistered guns and cans and then an undercover BATF agent will bust them (yes the BATF goes to ranges undercover, just like at gunshows). then the range gets in trouble for not checking their paperwork.
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Old January 14, 2010, 11:30 AM   #47
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UniversalFrost - that's an entirely different situation than what I had addressed. In your situation, obviously someone was trying to convert a pistol to shoot full-auto and was putting your range in jepordy. I would have done the same thing you did.

It's one thing to approach a guy who is shooting an AC556 and bug him about paperwork when your not the RO or a LEO. Most knowledgable folks know that there aren't any unregistered AC556's out there. But, a Taurus PT-1911??? Anything Taurus that goes full auto is automatically suspect since Taurus didn't even make any autos (to my knowledge) pre-86. FWIW, at our range those of us who are firing NFA weapons keep a copy of the Form 1 / Form 4 visible on our tables - it's not a posted rule - just sort of our custom to avoid any problems.

If it was just one mag, I would have thought the same thing you did - it's a Taurus, something broke. But doing multiple mag dumps with an illegally converted 1911? I wouldn't want someone that stupid shooting within 100 miles of me.

On a side note (and this may not be appropriate, but I've got to ask) - the fact that Taurus PT-1911 had no problem with several magazines of sustained full-auto fire is interesting to me from the standpoint of the durability and reliability of that particular gun. I've never been a big fan of Taurus, but they may have really hit a home run with their PT-1911. How many mags did the guy shoot through the 1911 before you stopped him?

Last edited by Skans; January 14, 2010 at 11:36 AM.
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Old January 14, 2010, 12:39 PM   #48
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yeah I brought up the post 86 issue with him as well during his song and dance routine.

I have a reising and when I take it to the range I always bring my paperwork. same thing when I bring my cans for my pistols.

anyway, any class 3's always draw attention. so i always get questions and folks asking how I got my class 3's, easier to just pull out the paperwork and shut them up.
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Old January 14, 2010, 05:37 PM   #49
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To the absolute morons who would ask to see confidential tax paperwork, or worse, call the authorities over the stated matters;

Please hand in all your guns. I cannot trust you with them.



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Old January 14, 2010, 06:10 PM   #50
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To the absolute morons who would ask to see confidential tax paperwork, or worse, call the authorities over the stated matters;
+1.

Confidential tax paperwork. 100% agree. IRS and ATF only.
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