The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Dave McCracken Memorial Shotgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old October 3, 2019, 09:32 AM   #51
darkgael
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2006
Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania.
Posts: 5,111
Quote:
Went to Boy Scout camp when I was a kid. They taught us to shoot clay pigeon's with a 22RF loaded with 22RF shot. What did we know. We weren't very good with it but we did break clays. If you have a problem with the 410 then all I can say is you probably haven't shot one often enough
I remember those Boy Scout shotguns but not who made them. They were bolt action .22 smoothbore. Yes, you could break clays with them but you weren’t shooting 16 yard Trap either. Hand thrown clays. Ok. Clays at 30+ yards with 30 grains of #12 shot...not so much.
About Not shooting often enough.,..of course practice will probably improve one’s accuracy. I shoot mine once a week at the Trap range, at least a box. Often I know that the shot was dead on and yet the bird flew on. Why? Because at the distance one acquires the clay and fires, it is more than 30 yards away and the pattern is pretty thin and getting thinner by the yard.
Pete
__________________
“Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ...
NRA Life Member

Last edited by darkgael; October 5, 2019 at 12:20 AM.
darkgael is offline  
Old October 3, 2019, 10:32 AM   #52
natman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2008
Posts: 2,294
Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
1800fps with a 109gr slug isn't bad, the .30 carbine does 1900fps with a 110gr bullet. It's accuracy from a smooth bore that limits your range.
A 110 grain 30 caliber bullet is very light for caliber and would have limited penetration due to its poor sectional density.

A 109 grain 41 caliber bullet is ridiculously light for caliber and would have very limited penetration due to its terrible sectional density.

Sure, it can kill a deer. If you're lucky.
__________________
Time Travelers' Wisdom:
Never Do Yesterday What Should Be Done Tomorrow.
If At Last You Do Succeed, Never Try Again.
natman is offline  
Old October 3, 2019, 12:01 PM   #53
Don Fischer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2017
Posts: 1,552
Quote:
Originally Posted by natman View Post
A 110 grain 30 caliber bullet is very light for caliber and would have limited penetration due to its poor sectional density.

A 109 grain 41 caliber bullet is ridiculously light for caliber and would have very limited penetration due to its terrible sectional density.

Sure, it can kill a deer. If you're lucky.
I thik the biggest cause of poor penetration of a 110gr bullet in 30 cal is the light construction being driven far to fast to penetrate well. So rather than penetrate, it blows up. Want to get it to penetrate better, shoot it in something that doesn't tear up the bullet on impact. Heavier bullet's generally penetrate because the velocity doesn't tear up the bullet. The bullet maintain's weight needed to penetrate while loosing velocity.
Don Fischer is offline  
Old October 3, 2019, 02:41 PM   #54
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 20,338
Quote:
A 110 grain 30 caliber bullet is very light for caliber and would have limited penetration due to its poor sectional density.

A 109 grain 41 caliber bullet is ridiculously light for caliber and would have very limited penetration due to its terrible sectional density.

Sure, it can kill a deer. If you're lucky.
Everything has limitations there's no free lunch, you don't get something for nothing.

Limited penetration? OK, compared to what? and If "limited" gets the job done, is that a problem?? Everything is relative to the situation and what might be deemed limited penetration for one application can be excessive penetration for another.

No, a .410 slug isn't going to penetrate like a .30-06 150gr at 2900fps, but it is going to match or exceed a .45 cal round ball (approx. 140gr) fired from a muzzle loader (approx. 1300fps) and a LOT of deer have been taken with those, over the centuries.

Yes, it can kill a deer if you're lucky. It will also kill a deer if you're skilled.

No, the .410 slug isn't ideal for deer hunting, but like a lot of other rounds that also aren't ideal, within its limitations, it will work.


Quote:
I thik the biggest cause of poor penetration of a 110gr bullet in 30 cal is the light construction being driven far to fast to penetrate well.
Depends on the bullet. Not all .30 call 110gr bullets are lightly constructed, look at the FMJ bullet intended for the .30 Carbine. Most sporting .30 bullets in 110grs are INTENDED to be for varmints and are deliberately built to open up rapidly in light bodied animals. They aren't built with deep penetration as the intent.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old October 6, 2019, 04:26 PM   #55
the possum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 6, 2004
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 548
Like some others have pointed out, it makes a great beginner's gun when compared against a .22 rifle. In that context, it becomes much easier to score hits with.

Its smaller pattern may be more challenging for wing shooting than a 12 gauge. But what good is that if a small kid can't even lift/shoulder a 12 ga? Then what? Would it be easier for a kid to hit doves with a light .410, or throwing rocks? To date, the only shotgun my daughter has been able to hold up comfortably was an antique garden gun in 9mm rimfire that felt like it weighed 3 pounds.
the possum is offline  
Old October 6, 2019, 04:43 PM   #56
FITASC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2014
Posts: 5,145
Sometimes parents can push a young kid who isn't physically able to handle certain things at their current age/size.
__________________
"I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa
FITASC is offline  
Old October 10, 2019, 09:02 AM   #57
Lohman446
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 22, 2016
Posts: 2,068
I've been thinking. My next "nice" shotgun will be a double 28 gauge or .410.

I enjoy hunting. The walk in the woods or the fields, the following of the dogs (when its someone else's dogs because I'm not training one), the thrill of the chase. When I used to duck hunt I used a 12 gauge with an extra full choke. Patterned great at about 70 yards but in the days of steel shot good guess where it was going. Decoys at 10 yards it was like trying to hit them with a rifle and frankly I am not that good.

I got the thrill of the hunt without the chore of cleaning birds or at least not nearly as many.

The gun is lighter, the success rate is lower, and a good hit is still a good hit. I can enjoy the hunt without the chore. I mean there are not a lot of people bird hunting for the meat anyways at this point
Lohman446 is offline  
Old October 10, 2019, 09:32 AM   #58
FITASC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2014
Posts: 5,145
Quote:
I've been thinking. My next "nice" shotgun will be a double 28 gauge or .410.
Get the 28. 50% more payload in a gun that typically weighs the same. Besides, it just WORKS!
__________________
"I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa
FITASC is offline  
Old October 11, 2019, 07:29 AM   #59
eastbank
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2008
Location: pa.
Posts: 2,171
get a 28 ga and also get a reloader, I got two 28 ga shotguns and a mec 9000G in 28 ga. now a box of shells cost around 4.00 and I get to pick the shot size I want and speed.
eastbank is offline  
Old October 11, 2019, 09:21 AM   #60
7.62 man
Member
 
Join Date: April 30, 2009
Location: Cyber-world USA
Posts: 53
I used my 410 for squirrel hunting while recovering from hip surgery. I couldn't carry a lot of weight so my 12ga was just too much. I would walk a little along the paths in the woods & sit down to rest when I got tired I got better slowly. I had to use the 3" mag shells to reach the tops of the trees with enough power to cleanly take the game. The only problem I had was the 3" shells were almost 3 times the cost of 12 ga. That's the price we pay to get better.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1st 2016.jpg (176.6 KB, 21 views)
7.62 man is offline  
Old October 11, 2019, 09:45 AM   #61
105kw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 30, 2017
Location: Columbia Basin Washington
Posts: 123
When I grew up in Central Washington, it seemed like every farm/ranch house had two guns , one .22, usually a bolt action, and a .410 either single shot or bolt gun.
.410s where used as a varmint gun. They did really well on skunks, and racoons.
As near as I could tell that was about the only use most of them got.
Box of 25 shells lasted a few years, if you ran low on ammo, the local gas station would sell loose rounds.
105kw is offline  
Old October 11, 2019, 04:39 PM   #62
Don Fischer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2017
Posts: 1,552
Imagine you grow up and dad get's you a 410 for your first gun. Don't have anything else. you shoot squirrels, rabbits and game birds with it. Ten years later some well meaning sport decide's to give you a lesson in wing shooting with his fancy 12ga. You go along and you wipe his eye pretty bad. The thing the well meaning sport doesn't get is that you and the 410 are one! The 410 is all you know and your pretty dang good with it! You learn to shoot with what you have!
Don Fischer is offline  
Old October 11, 2019, 07:00 PM   #63
FITASC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2014
Posts: 5,145
Quote:
get a 28 ga and also get a reloader, I got two 28 ga shotguns and a mec 9000G in 28 ga. now a box of shells cost around 4.00 and I get to pick the shot size I want and speed.
+1 - I found 8.5s to be a nice compromise on pellets for birds targets and small game.
__________________
"I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa
FITASC is offline  
Old October 12, 2019, 08:57 AM   #64
SPEMack618
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 21, 2010
Location: Central Georgia
Posts: 1,859
Well, if you're being tackled by a lawman in the alley, your new waitress friend can use your single shot .410 to get you out of there.

Also, a full choked single shot .410 is nearly perfect for snakes, squirrels and rabbit.

I agree with not starting youth off on a .410; they will get frustrated if shooting at clays.

A gas operated 20 ga is the way to go for that.
__________________
NRA Life Member
Read my blog!
"The answer to any caliber debate is going to be .38 Super, 10mm, .357 Sig or .41 Magnum!"
SPEMack618 is offline  
Old October 13, 2019, 08:42 PM   #65
ratshooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,521
Quote:
Well, if you're being tackled by a lawman in the alley, your new waitress friend can use your single shot .410 to get you out of there.
Gotta love girls named Sherry.

Love my 410's too. Its a lot better than the internet guys would have you believe. I don't use mine for flying game but small sitting game is easily killed if you watch the range and you don't fill up your meal with a bunch of shot.

I load three .395 round balls in a 2.5" shell at over 1100fps and I wouldn't have any problem using this load on a deer at 30 yards or under. The 410 is one of the best emergency guns (I don't like SHTF) you can get. Easy on a bag of shot and will keep you fed if you respect it strengths and limitations.
__________________
"Those who cannot cleanly dispatch their game using a .30-30 are either shooting too far, hunting inappropriate (too large) game, or are simply incompetent." Mic McPherson

I can understand your anger at me, but what could you possibly have against the horse I rode in on?
ratshooter is offline  
Old October 14, 2019, 12:05 AM   #66
TruthTellers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 22, 2016
Posts: 2,852
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratshooter View Post
Gotta love girls named Sherry.

Love my 410's too. Its a lot better than the internet guys would have you believe. I don't use mine for flying game but small sitting game is easily killed if you watch the range and you don't fill up your meal with a bunch of shot.

I load three .395 round balls in a 2.5" shell at over 1100fps and I wouldn't have any problem using this load on a deer at 30 yards or under. The 410 is one of the best emergency guns (I don't like SHTF) you can get. Easy on a bag of shot and will keep you fed if you respect it strengths and limitations.
Most .410 shotguns come with 3 inch chambers tho and those hold 5 pellets of 000 Buck. What do you think 5 pellets of 000 Buck is capable of out in the field? Do you think the extra two pellets make much difference or is just a waste of lead?
__________________
Any good revolver > Any good semi auto

"We always think there's gonna be more time... then it runs out."
TruthTellers is offline  
Old October 14, 2019, 10:29 AM   #67
ratshooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,521
Quote:
Most .410 shotguns come with 3 inch chambers tho and those hold 5 pellets of 000 Buck. What do you think 5 pellets of 000 Buck is capable of out in the field? Do you think the extra two pellets make much difference or is just a waste of lead?
I don't know about the 5 ball loads. I have some but haven't tested them on anything. The 3 ball load I load has three 93gr balls and thats the same weight as a 380 load. So I have the equivalent of three 380 bullets going over 1100fps which is faster than any 380 load so should make an effective deer killer in an emergency if needed. And 5 of the 60gr balls weigh 300grs total. My 3 ball load weighs 279grs so they are both close. I just like the heavier ball weight of the .395 ball.

Three aught buck weighs 60grs. My 395 diameter balls are 50% more in weight. Is that enough to make a real difference? I have no idea but I know the load I am using blows big holes in 2x6 lumber and all three group right together at 20 yards. I wish I knew someone who owned one of those goofy Taurus Judge pistols so we could try them in it.

Anyway its just another way to load the 410 shotgun. After I bought my first box of 410s I made my own loading outfit. Its not fast like a Mec but I have around 250-300 rounds loaded now so am in good shape. And I bought 500 primed hulls off GB for about $40 IIRC so I have a lifetime supply for guns I really like shooting. I have three of them. My favorites are the New England break open guns. I will buy any of those I find for a hundred bucks or less.
__________________
"Those who cannot cleanly dispatch their game using a .30-30 are either shooting too far, hunting inappropriate (too large) game, or are simply incompetent." Mic McPherson

I can understand your anger at me, but what could you possibly have against the horse I rode in on?

Last edited by ratshooter; October 14, 2019 at 10:40 AM.
ratshooter is offline  
Old October 14, 2019, 10:37 AM   #68
ratshooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,521
This article is close to what I am doing to reload the 410 shell without a press. The difference is that I roll crimp my shells. I like how this guy is refolding his hulls. I may try that next time I load some shells.

https://fromthetrenchesworldreport.c...ding-kit/60500
__________________
"Those who cannot cleanly dispatch their game using a .30-30 are either shooting too far, hunting inappropriate (too large) game, or are simply incompetent." Mic McPherson

I can understand your anger at me, but what could you possibly have against the horse I rode in on?
ratshooter is offline  
Old October 14, 2019, 01:28 PM   #69
stuckinthe60s
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 31, 2017
Location: Va., Ct., Mo..
Posts: 267
a 410 seperates the men from the boys in a game of skeet.
__________________
Retired Military Aviation
Former Member Navy Shooting Team
Distinguished Pistol Shot
NSSA All American
stuckinthe60s is offline  
Old October 14, 2019, 08:13 PM   #70
Forte S+W
Member
 
Join Date: October 12, 2019
Posts: 64
I only own one firearm in .410 Bore.

The Taurus Judge Magnum. That being said, it's extremely fun to shoot, makes for a heck of a nightstand gun, truck gun, or woods gun.

So in my biased, unilateral opinion, the true strength of .410 Bore lies in the fact that its dimensional similarities allow it to be fired from combination .45LC/.410 Bore handguns, giving it a unique niche as a cartridge with tons of utility.

I only wish that there were more combination .45LC/.454/.410 Bore firearms, namely a Lever Action Rifle, as that could make for a heck of a hunting/wilderness defense firearm.
Forte S+W is offline  
Old October 15, 2019, 12:24 PM   #71
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 20,338
Quote:
So in my biased, unilateral opinion, the true strength of .410 Bore lies in the fact that its dimensional similarities allow it to be fired from combination .45LC/.410 Bore handguns, giving it a unique niche as a cartridge with tons of utility.

I only wish that there were more combination .45LC/.454/.410 Bore firearms, namely a Lever Action Rifle, as that could make for a heck of a hunting/wilderness defense firearm.
I need to point out that there are no .45LC/.410 Bores, they are all .45 caliber barrels. They are .45 Colt guns that allow the firing of .410 shotshells.

They don't have a great reputation for accuracy with .45 Colt ammo, generally, because of the extra long jump the .45 bullet has to make to reach the rifling, which is further away from the bullet in guns made to take .410 shells as well. Some guns apparently do well enough, some don't. At pistol ranges its not usually a huge factor, but it could be, every gun is different.

The main reason you don't see something like a .45Colt/.410 lever gun, besides the long bullet jump issue is simply the length of the shells.

Revolvers (and single shots) don't care, but magazine fed repeating actions have a lot of problems feeding when the rounds are over an inch different in length, and different body diameters.

With a maximum loaded length of 1.6" and a body diameter larger than the 2.5" and 3" .410 shells, you run into all kinds of complex problems trying to make a lever, pump, or even a bolt gun feed both interchangeably.

A bolt action seems like it would be the easiest, provided you designed it to use different magazines for the difference caliber shells. The magazine feed lips that keep a .410 shell in the right position for feeding are not right for the .45 Colt, and vice versa.

Action LENGTH plays a part too. Even if you're using tube feed, and the cartridge stops and lifer will work for both .45 and .410, the action length needed for the .41o means that .45 Colt round has to travel an inch and half "loose' before it even gets to the chamber.

Even though the .410 and .45 Colt RIMS are close enough to function interchangeably, the differences in case body diameter and length complicate the feeding mechanism to the point where no one is doing it, if it even can be done.

I think someone (Taurus??) does, or did make a long gun shooting .45 Colt/.410, by essentially fitting a stock and long barrel on their revolver. You won't find any lever guns in .45/.410 combination, but you might find one of those...
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old November 10, 2019, 01:50 PM   #72
langenc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 19, 2007
Location: Montmorency Co, MI
Posts: 1,317
"What does a 410 do that 12 or 20 wont do?"

a 410 wont kick the shoulder off you and get a flinch developed.

Anyone looking at a 28 these days. Few makers are doing a 20 gauge. Ammo available at reasonable price (about 10-11 bucks/box).
langenc is offline  
Old November 11, 2019, 07:59 AM   #73
darkgael
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2006
Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania.
Posts: 5,111
Quote:
Its smaller pattern may be more challenging for wing shooting than a 12 gauge.
.410 patterns are thinner - 1/2 oz of shot compared to 1 1/8 oz of shot -not necessarily smaller.
A pattern from a .410 is not smaller than the pattern from a 12 gauge. Unless you are using some special wad, shot from the same type of choke shot, patterns tend to open at the same rate regardless of gauge.
__________________
“Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ...
NRA Life Member
darkgael is offline  
Old November 11, 2019, 11:48 AM   #74
Don Fischer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2017
Posts: 1,552
About all I carry is either my 28ga or 410 SxS. I shoot pigeons in practice with they and they work fine. I'm pretty sure if we had any game birds around here they would work fine on them too. Carried my 410 down to the river couple days ago, used to be a lot of pheasant's, Huns and Quail down there. 3in 410 with 11/16oz of 6's on birds coming off point's just isn't all that tuff to bring down!
Don Fischer is offline  
Old November 12, 2019, 11:17 AM   #75
natman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2008
Posts: 2,294
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkgael View Post
.410 patterns are thinner - 1/2 oz of shot compared to 1 1/8 oz of shot -not necessarily smaller.
A pattern from a .410 is not smaller than the pattern from a 12 gauge. Unless you are using some special wad, shot from the same type of choke shot, patterns tend to open at the same rate regardless of gauge.
That thinner pattern will be so full of holes at any distance that it's quite possible for a bird to fly away from a shot that would be a hit with the more than twice as much shot thrown by a 12 ga. In order to get enough pattern density for a sure hit, 410s tend to use tighter chokes for a given distance than a 12 ga. Which makes the pattern smaller and harder to hit with.

It's possible to get clean kills with a 410, if the distances are short and/or you're a really good shot.
__________________
Time Travelers' Wisdom:
Never Do Yesterday What Should Be Done Tomorrow.
If At Last You Do Succeed, Never Try Again.
natman is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13322 seconds with 11 queries