What to look for in a bear defense shotgun?

[Alaska444]

I live up in Northern Idaho as well and the grizzly bears are spreading out from the Selkerks down into Couer d'Alene are and St. Joes as evidence by two bears killed in the last couple of years. One was 10 miles from Couer d'Alene in Rose lake.

My choice is the .44 magnum close to town where racking a rifle over your shoulder would look strange and my .444 Marlin as my woods gun. I have it set up so it feels like a 20 ga so I don't get the busted shoulder you get from a 12 ga with top line slugs. With my Buffalo Bore 335 gr hardcast bullets, it should get the job done and is much more powerful than the .454, .460 and .500 in handgun.

Pepper spray is a good adjunct but should not be your only defense.

[shojin]

I have a place on Priest Lake (grew up there)... and used to carry a .41 mag (still do), but after a couple of close encounters with grizzlies, I began to feel less confident of using a .41 to defend myself or family when picking berries.

We also have had a couple of grizzly shootings in the past couple of years, mostly related to yahoos feeding the bears then the habituated bears causing problems. One of my close friends is one of the local conservation officers and is the one who unfortunately has had to kill problem grizzlies.

[Alaska444]

That's pretty country up their at Priest Lake and quite wild. Enjoy but carry a bit of a bigger stick when you go for the huckleberries.

[shojin]

Oh, but I do... this (but with an extended tube). That was the whole point of my last post. 41 mag seemed a little inadequate after seeing some grizz up close and personal.

[SurplusShooter]

It is fine for deffese agnist bears.

[ripnbst]

Lets keep the OP alive and put some things in perspective. Buckshot is called buckshot because it was designed to be used for bucks, as in deer. What is the biggest deer you've ever seen a picture of? Was it 12 feet tall on its hind legs? No it wasn't.

The largest bear on record was 12' tall on its hind legs. I am going to pack a gun and ammo that will kill that 12' bear. Are you going to encounter a 12' bear? I doubt it so highly I'd bet every dollar I've earned on it. Would you bet your life and the livelihood of your family members left behind on it? But we aren't playing statistics, packing for statistics mean no one on this board should carry anything at all ever as according to statistics most of us will be fine. We already planning for the improbable so I would make sure I have myself covered.

I assume you are talking brown bear country as you didn't specify so i will assume the worst. I recommend packing slugs that were mentioned earlier and no less. As has also been said you want penetration, as much as you can find. Your shoulder will no doubt take a beating but in a life/death situation you wont notice it and I'd rather be sore than dead.

People post "XYZ is sufficient or enough" If I was heading for bear country I dont just want enough. I want too much. I am not trying to eat it or save a hide, I want to blow holes in [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color], big ones.

[Gehrhard]

Let's also keep the intent of the original post in mind. Shotgun. A given. Sights. Questioned. An answer: bead. Why? The discussion is also about north-country bear defense. Recommended: 000 3" Magnum Plated Buffered Buckshot or good ol' Slugs.

So birdshot is for birds. Buckshot is only for bucks. And so Slugs must be for... slugs? When a buck stands up on ITS hind legs, how tall is it? Taller than a Black Bear which buckshot is fine for, right? Slugs are, what, like 25cm or so?

[mattamuskeet]

Peter Hathaway Capstick wrote on the subject of shotgun self defense and selection of shot size. His conclusion was that the largest shot is usually NOT the best choice. For example, 2 3/4" load of 00 contains 636 grains of lead and about 2400 ft/lbs of energy. A load of #1 buck has 800 grains of lead and 3000 ft/lbs.

He also states that he "almost decapitated a lioness with a 20 gauge load of 7 1/2 or 8 shot..." at close range.

The article was in Guns & Ammo, December 1983; and is also in his book "Last Horizons".

Food for thought.

[Gehrhard]

For a big bruin you do need initial penetration capability which will not stop so quickly. Everyone probably understands this. But it limits the availabilty of most effective rounds.

The multiple, perfectly round, plated, heavy .36 balls from two posts ago should punch, break, and burst through what it has to and continue to do damage as they travel a couple of FEET through their target, working particularly mercilessly together as well as independently to stop the threat.

If you are confident you will hit your target where you need to, defending yourself from a brown bear attack, go with the slug. I think the slug is better but only under ideal circumstances more atuned to hunting, not defense. That's just me...

[mathman]

So birdshot is for birds. Buckshot is only for bucks. And so Slugs must be for... slugs? When a buck stands up on ITS hind legs, how tall is it? Taller than a Black Bear which buckshot is fine for, right?

Your logic is so comically based in fiction that it is hardly worth comment. Go ahead and shoot a bear with whatever you want. The herd needs thinning anyway.

[Alaska444]

Sorry, I seem to have missed something. What is the recommended BIRD shot for brown bears? LOL

[Gehrhard]

Well, at close ranges apparently course sand will be devastating to anything up to and including a Kodiak, as I've learned here on the forum, but not over-penetrate the flora.

Mathman, I think it was, let me in on Estate Cartridge's coming out with a tactical Managed Recoil Vacuum-Cleaner Dust load in a "flite-control" cup that will get patterns smaller than the actual bore of the shotgun at 90 yards which is ideal -- he can hardly wait!

[gio55]

use 00 or 000 buck shots if your scared to lack precision with your slug.. your using the nova as a defence gun so distance should not be a problem... with in 40 yards i believe you cant get much mor damage then with a them 00buck shots.. if your iffy about the buck shots try the winchester rackmaster slugs the rifled slugs for smooth bore.. iv beeen shooting those through my over-under with a mod chock and i group with in 2 inchs at 60yards never really tried further ... i hunt in the thickets of canada dont really need anything further..

[Alaska444]

Bear defense with a rifle is all about penetration. Sorry, but I would not trust buck shot for deep penetration and be able to crash through bone after going through the tough hide of a bear. You need some lead that is going to carry it's momentum no matter what it hits. If you can't hit the bear where it needs to be hit with slugs, then carry bear pepper spray. If you can't utilize a shotgun slug with muzzle energy over 3000 ft-pds, go with a rifle instead that has that minimum muzzle energy which means starting with a 30-06 as the minimum bear gun.

[Old Grump]

Sorry, I seem to have missed something. What is the recommended BIRD shot for brown bears? LOL

Brenneke Bird
Foster Bird

[Alaska444]

In all seriousness, I have heard that native Americans use a 12 ga for bear defense with the first load bird shot to take out the bears eyes and nose and then slugs to kill the bear once disabled. The problem with this approach is that folks ordinarily only have time for one shot before the bear gets to them. So, bird shot may be an effective way to disable a bear perhaps, but I would NOT count on it for killing a bear or stopping a charge, it just does not have the penetration needed.

[Kestrel4k]

I have heard that native Americans use a 12 ga for bear defense with the first load bird shot to take out the bears eyes and nose and then slugs to kill the bear once disabled.

I'd like to see a reference for that?

[Alaska444]

No reference I could find, just something I remember off the top of my head. No idea if it is really true and I am not advocating its use. I am only responding to a large number of folks advocating buck shot or even bird shot which I don't believe is the right answer.

[Gehrhard]

Well, this just went South fast with "birdshot is for Grizzlies" and pepper spray over copper-plated 000 Buckshot in a 3" Magnum 12 ga. for defense...

Really?

[Rustle in the Bushes]

awesome, based on what ive hear here


Birdshot for grizzlies

dont aim the shotgun just point it.


Got it! methinks ill cook myself up some of those dragons breathe rounds and go hiking in plate armor!

[popcan]

In all seriousness, I have heard that native Americans use a 12 ga for bear defense with the first load bird shot to take out the bears eyes and nose and then slugs to kill the bear once disabled. The problem with this approach is that folks ordinarily only have time for one shot before the bear gets to them. So, bird shot may be an effective way to disable a bear perhaps, but I would NOT count on it for killing a bear or stopping a charge, it just does not have the penetration needed.

A most excellent way to get one's self killed.

Again, try patterning that birdshot on a bear face-sized target, with eyes on it from distances you think you will shoot at, (and still leave time for another shot).

See how many little pellets hit the eyes.

[Alaska444]

Great point. Once again, I was not advocating that approach, just responding to others talking about bird shot. I am not a shotgun defense man myself, I prefer a large chunk of lead from my Marlin, but that is just my own preference. If I did go with the 12 ga, it would only be slugs, no bird shot, no buck shot.

[mathman]

The only reason I would prefer a shotgun (either pump or Benelli autoloader) is due to my ability to fire follow up shots faster than with a bolt or lever gun. But regardless of platform, I am only shooting large, solid chunks of lead at a bear...that means slugs in a shotgun. YMMV.

[skeeter]

Waterman is wise. Do NOT use any buckshot load for bear defense, even 000.
It has no real penetration. Many times my 00 buck will bounce off an oak tree at 30 feet.

[jason_iowa]

Light, auto so you can fire one handed open enough choke to fire hard cast slugs.