308 Newbie to Reloading - Page 3

browninghunter86 · January 11, 2012, 04:23 PM

going to get a 1lb of RL 15 and IMR 4895. Probably will stick with 165SST and see how it goes. Or may try SGK 165 SBT and try them with the different powders

dacaur · January 11, 2012, 10:33 PM

IMR 4895 was going to be my "backup" powder if I could not get a good group out of Varget....

farmerboy · January 11, 2012, 10:42 PM

Loaded same gun and Varget with 165 SSTs give a jagged hole after load development and also love same powder with Sierra Gamekings 165 grainers but last 5 years if I can find a load with SSTs that's what I love. Work perfectly.

browninghunter86 · January 11, 2012, 11:02 PM

farmerboy: what load Varget did your rifle like? I am in process of getting a stable rear shooting rest and go back to range. have tried 42-46gr with no real winner in best performance. under 1.5" @100 but should be getting better with reloading my own ammo.

thanks

farmerboy · January 11, 2012, 11:10 PM

My rifle is same model but different rifle but mine liked 46.0 and that's with .030 off lands.

farmerboy · January 11, 2012, 11:20 PM

I'll make about three rounds starting load and move every half grain to max, shoot a different targets to get groupings. Find the best groupings, usually two together then repeat next day just to double check load and your own shooting. If you can't shoot same grouping next day find what's wrong. Then the two best groupings I'll reload there andgo one side both directionsmaybe load them Every .2 apart instead of .5 and third day you'll see if you can find a load that will give you a true jagged hole or not. And if you can for some reason hold your scope dead on for whatever reason i wouldn't even attempt shooting that day.

browninghunter86 · January 11, 2012, 11:43 PM

I did manage 1.18" using 46 the other day and did get 1.25" with 45.5. 45.5s shot about same groups as before but 46 shot alot better than the previous trip to range. Here is link to my groups I have got photos of https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...1&l=416dfdbcd2

Noticed my 45.5 loads all have 2 shots that are in same hole basically then the other ones are not right there with them maybe me but to me indicates that is a good load just might be me??

farmerboy · January 11, 2012, 11:58 PM

I'll try and send you photos tomorrow if I can figure out how.And yes it sure makes it a little frustrating when you have to go somewhere to shoot. Were lucky and have my own range right outside but then again we have to drive about an hour to the nearest Walmart. But then I only got a 7 minute drive to buy more powder so Im good.

browninghunter86 · January 12, 2012, 12:03 AM

did you see those groups? I can determine what they mean....the loads that are the same appear to all group the same so don't know what to try from here. That rifle should shoot sub MOA according to Savage

Can use the attach image button above or the attachment button right above that

mrawesome22 · January 12, 2012, 12:03 AM

Try making a more precise point to aim for.

Try putting an + with a sharpie.

Aim small, miss small.

Don't drink any coffee a few hours before shooting.

Don't drink beer the night before shooting.

Leave all your problems behind when you walk out the door to go shooting. Focus on the task at hand and that only.

Take a 22 and set a target out at a ridiculous distance and shoot at it while waiting for the barrel to cool.

Set up and pretend you have a round in the gun, but don't load it. Focus on your breathing, focus on muscles being relaxed yet ready. Pull that trigger. Did you flinch? Did the crosshairs move way off?

If you are doing these things, you are gonna see your heart beat in the crosshairs. Breathe. Relax. Slow that heartbeat down.

Wear double hearing protection to ensure muzzle blast doesn't create a flinch.

Dry firing with the techniques mentioned above should alleviate this though. But we don't want it coming back.

**Unclenick** · January 12, 2012, 12:13 PM

Browninghunter86,

Also, if you haven't done so already, take a look at Dan Newberry's approach to load development. A lot of folks make jumps in charge weight large enough to skip right past a sweet spot or shoot groups too small to tell random events from statistically significant ones. His system looks for 3 groups of 3 shots in successive charge weights with same POI, all in a row, giving you a total of 9 shots in the comparison, which is enough to get some idea where you are. He uses 0.7% (about 0.3 grains in .308) charge weights changes in a lot of his examples, and that's what I use in .308 and .30-06.

You can also tune bullet seating depth (first post in the linked thread), as suggested, but if you want magazine feed you are limited to the normal 2.800" COL, and you should still be able to get 1/2 moa with normal seating unless you shoot VLD's.

Does your 10FP have the Accustock? Mine is older and the thermoplastic stock it came with flexed badly and would bump the underside of the barrel in a normal bench bag arrangement with the forestock sitting on the front bag or if a bipod were in use. I've changed stocks since, but with the original the front bag had to be under the magazine floorplate just in front of the trigger guard to prevent stock influence on the groups. It shot well then. Try that position and see if it helps, (regardless of what stock you have, though the Accustock should prevent the problem).

browninghunter86 · January 12, 2012, 12:36 PM

it does not have the accustock just the accutrigger which I really like. I am about to go get some primers and head to the range

browninghunter86 · January 12, 2012, 01:12 PM

how do you figure out gr weight to reduce when it says by x%? He says 7-10% below max and increments of 2%...how do you calculate that?

Brian Pfleuger · January 12, 2012, 01:17 PM

10% below max is 90%... Multiply max load by 0.90.

.7% is .007, 1% is .01, 2% .02

So, .7% of 50 is 50x.007, .35

2% of 50 is 50x.02, 1.0

browninghunter86 · January 12, 2012, 01:37 PM

peetzakilla: preciate it

browninghunter86 · January 24, 2012, 10:56 AM

how can you tell when brass needs to be thrown out? I am on my 10th reload with winchester brass that is neck sized only and trimmed when it needed it?

**Unclenick** · January 24, 2012, 11:23 AM

Finding some necks split after firing is a common sign they all are getting close to the end of life. You can, however, anneal the necks to correct that and keep shooting. At ten shots you may be getting close to due for this, though some brass will go longer without it. Some benchrest shooters get upwards of 50 reloads from cases by not shooting them too near maximum and doing periodic annealing. Having the primer pockets expand until they don't grip the primer well is another sign of brass fatigue. For people who full-length resize, head separation can occur, which means the brass has gotten too thin near the head. Obviously any kind of crack or split is a bad sign.

Typically, if you are neck sizing only, unless your load pressure is very low, you will find cases eventually get too tight to chamber easily. At that point you want to set them back a little in a full length sizing die or with a Redding body die. If you are using a Lee Loader and don't have a press and FL die, then that tight fit will be another cause of end-of case life. Gotta fit 'em in the chamber to shoot.

browninghunter86 · January 24, 2012, 01:02 PM

thanks. no signs of neck splitting and primers are going in like they did on first load. there is bright marks on bottom of case where identifying brand and caliber writing is. everything else from what I see looks normal. still chambering fine.

**Unclenick** · January 24, 2012, 02:23 PM

The marks on the case head are usually because a neck-sized case fills the chamber well enough for the bolt face to rub on it during closing and opening, while the tight fit of the shoulder keeps the case from rotating with it.

browninghunter86 · January 24, 2012, 03:00 PM

ok. ordering the hornady bullet comparator and headspace bushing along with the body so I can set up my FL die. The only thing I am having question about is why using the seating die set and it is secure that the OAL varies even with using same length cases and same length bullets and same powder charge? I know the actual bullet tips are slightly different most of the time. My lenght that shoots well has visible space before cannelure on hornady interlock but some cases is at bottom of cannelure. Any idea why this is or is it due to cannelure distance varrying?

**Unclenick** · January 24, 2012, 03:31 PM

The bullet ogives may not be the same length from the bases of the bullets, especially if the manufacture combined the output of different bullet making machines into one lot. Each set of tools is usually slightly different. When you get the comparator, put the bullet insert into the caliper adapter and sort through the bullets to get the ones with the same ogive lengths all in the same baggy. See if sticking to those solves your problem.

To get more scientific, put some dry erase marker color on one of your bullets so you can see exactly where your seater stem contacted it during seating. If need be, you can choose a bullet comparator insert for a smaller caliber that contacts the bullet at about that same spot the seating stem did, then make your bullet length comparisons with that.

If you think the cannelures are actually in different places, just line the bullets up on a flat surface and see if the cannelures are all at the same height. They should be. On loaded ammo, if you already checked that the bullets were the same length, then just comparing the COL's should tell you whether the bullet was seated in far enough or not.

If you use a Lee dead length seater die, take the cap off and make sure noting is interfering with the seater stem/plug insert. It doesn't cost much to get a replacement, and you can actually take lapping compound and use it with several bullets to lap the inside of one of these to match a particular bullet. That may help with repeatability.

browninghunter86 · January 24, 2012, 04:42 PM

after I posted that last one I got to thining...like you said as long as the OAL is same then I should be good? Same seating die and setting and some OAL I am getting are 2.794" and 2.801". I did measure each bullet and used ones with same length when loading but now they are mixed up in box so not sure which ones belong to which so can't say if they were same bullet length to begin with on the ones I just mentioned. I will definately seperate them next time like you said and will use ogive length to do so

**Unclenick** · January 24, 2012, 05:40 PM

A few thousandths is pretty common variation in bullet length, though it depends on the tip design.

Brian Pfleuger · January 24, 2012, 06:01 PM

One thing you want to do is make sure you're getting a real, full stroke when you're seating the bullet. I have had a round or two come out a strange length and put it back through the seater and it comes out right. I find that I might "short-stroke" it occasionally even when I didn't think I did. Set up the press so you've got a solid, unmistakable stop and give it a solid push on the handle.

Also, you might consider either getting a custom seating plug made (I think Lee does that) or drilling out the plug closer to true caliber diameter so it touches the bullets in a spot that is more consistent diameter.

I drilled out the seating plugs in my Dead Length seating dies and get more consistent results. The closest bit to .308 would probably be 39/128, but I'm not sure. A machinist could cut it out exactly the size you wanted too, but might be pricey if they're not a close friend. You need, at the very least, a decent drill press. You can't do it by hand.

browninghunter86 · January 24, 2012, 10:14 PM

will neck sizing only work harden the brass?? Thought that was from FL sizing and over working the brass

January 12, 2012, 12:13 PM	#61
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Browninghunter86, Also, if you haven't done so already, take a look at Dan Newberry's approach to load development. A lot of folks make jumps in charge weight large enough to skip right past a sweet spot or shoot groups too small to tell random events from statistically significant ones. His system looks for 3 groups of 3 shots in successive charge weights with same POI, all in a row, giving you a total of 9 shots in the comparison, which is enough to get some idea where you are. He uses 0.7% (about 0.3 grains in .308) charge weights changes in a lot of his examples, and that's what I use in .308 and .30-06. You can also tune bullet seating depth (first post in the linked thread), as suggested, but if you want magazine feed you are limited to the normal 2.800" COL, and you should still be able to get 1/2 moa with normal seating unless you shoot VLD's. Does your 10FP have the Accustock? Mine is older and the thermoplastic stock it came with flexed badly and would bump the underside of the barrel in a normal bench bag arrangement with the forestock sitting on the front bag or if a bipod were in use. I've changed stocks since, but with the original the front bag had to be under the magazine floorplate just in front of the trigger guard to prevent stock influence on the groups. It shot well then. Try that position and see if it helps, (regardless of what stock you have, though the Accustock should prevent the problem). __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

January 24, 2012, 11:23 AM	#67
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Finding some necks split after firing is a common sign they all are getting close to the end of life. You can, however, anneal the necks to correct that and keep shooting. At ten shots you may be getting close to due for this, though some brass will go longer without it. Some benchrest shooters get upwards of 50 reloads from cases by not shooting them too near maximum and doing periodic annealing. Having the primer pockets expand until they don't grip the primer well is another sign of brass fatigue. For people who full-length resize, head separation can occur, which means the brass has gotten too thin near the head. Obviously any kind of crack or split is a bad sign. Typically, if you are neck sizing only, unless your load pressure is very low, you will find cases eventually get too tight to chamber easily. At that point you want to set them back a little in a full length sizing die or with a Redding body die. If you are using a Lee Loader and don't have a press and FL die, then that tight fit will be another cause of end-of case life. Gotta fit 'em in the chamber to shoot. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

January 24, 2012, 02:23 PM	#69
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	The marks on the case head are usually because a neck-sized case fills the chamber well enough for the bolt face to rub on it during closing and opening, while the tight fit of the shoulder keeps the case from rotating with it. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

January 24, 2012, 03:31 PM	#71
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	The bullet ogives may not be the same length from the bases of the bullets, especially if the manufacture combined the output of different bullet making machines into one lot. Each set of tools is usually slightly different. When you get the comparator, put the bullet insert into the caliper adapter and sort through the bullets to get the ones with the same ogive lengths all in the same baggy. See if sticking to those solves your problem. To get more scientific, put some dry erase marker color on one of your bullets so you can see exactly where your seater stem contacted it during seating. If need be, you can choose a bullet comparator insert for a smaller caliber that contacts the bullet at about that same spot the seating stem did, then make your bullet length comparisons with that. If you think the cannelures are actually in different places, just line the bullets up on a flat surface and see if the cannelures are all at the same height. They should be. On loaded ammo, if you already checked that the bullets were the same length, then just comparing the COL's should tell you whether the bullet was seated in far enough or not. If you use a Lee dead length seater die, take the cap off and make sure noting is interfering with the seater stem/plug insert. It doesn't cost much to get a replacement, and you can actually take lapping compound and use it with several bullets to lap the inside of one of these to match a particular bullet. That may help with repeatability. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

January 24, 2012, 05:40 PM	#73
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	A few thousandths is pretty common variation in bullet length, though it depends on the tip design. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

January 11, 2012, 04:23 PM	#51
browninghunter86 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2011 Posts: 524	going to get a 1lb of RL 15 and IMR 4895. Probably will stick with 165SST and see how it goes. Or may try SGK 165 SBT and try them with the different powders

January 11, 2012, 10:33 PM	#52
dacaur Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 2010 Posts: 733	IMR 4895 was going to be my "backup" powder if I could not get a good group out of Varget....

January 11, 2012, 10:42 PM	#53
farmerboy Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 1,343	Loaded same gun and Varget with 165 SSTs give a jagged hole after load development and also love same powder with Sierra Gamekings 165 grainers but last 5 years if I can find a load with SSTs that's what I love. Work perfectly.

January 11, 2012, 11:02 PM	#54
browninghunter86 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2011 Posts: 524	farmerboy: what load Varget did your rifle like? I am in process of getting a stable rear shooting rest and go back to range. have tried 42-46gr with no real winner in best performance. under 1.5" @100 but should be getting better with reloading my own ammo. thanks

January 11, 2012, 11:10 PM	#55
farmerboy Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 1,343	My rifle is same model but different rifle but mine liked 46.0 and that's with .030 off lands.

January 11, 2012, 11:20 PM	#56
farmerboy Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 1,343	I'll make about three rounds starting load and move every half grain to max, shoot a different targets to get groupings. Find the best groupings, usually two together then repeat next day just to double check load and your own shooting. If you can't shoot same grouping next day find what's wrong. Then the two best groupings I'll reload there andgo one side both directionsmaybe load them Every .2 apart instead of .5 and third day you'll see if you can find a load that will give you a true jagged hole or not. And if you can for some reason hold your scope dead on for whatever reason i wouldn't even attempt shooting that day.

January 11, 2012, 11:43 PM	#57
browninghunter86 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2011 Posts: 524	I did manage 1.18" using 46 the other day and did get 1.25" with 45.5. 45.5s shot about same groups as before but 46 shot alot better than the previous trip to range. Here is link to my groups I have got photos of https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...1&l=416dfdbcd2 Noticed my 45.5 loads all have 2 shots that are in same hole basically then the other ones are not right there with them maybe me but to me indicates that is a good load just might be me??

January 11, 2012, 11:58 PM	#58
farmerboy Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 1,343	I'll try and send you photos tomorrow if I can figure out how.And yes it sure makes it a little frustrating when you have to go somewhere to shoot. Were lucky and have my own range right outside but then again we have to drive about an hour to the nearest Walmart. But then I only got a 7 minute drive to buy more powder so Im good.

January 12, 2012, 12:03 AM	#59
browninghunter86 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2011 Posts: 524	did you see those groups? I can determine what they mean....the loads that are the same appear to all group the same so don't know what to try from here. That rifle should shoot sub MOA according to Savage Can use the attach image button above or the attachment button right above that

January 12, 2012, 12:03 AM	#60
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	Try making a more precise point to aim for. Try putting an + with a sharpie. Aim small, miss small. Don't drink any coffee a few hours before shooting. Don't drink beer the night before shooting. Leave all your problems behind when you walk out the door to go shooting. Focus on the task at hand and that only. Take a 22 and set a target out at a ridiculous distance and shoot at it while waiting for the barrel to cool. Set up and pretend you have a round in the gun, but don't load it. Focus on your breathing, focus on muscles being relaxed yet ready. Pull that trigger. Did you flinch? Did the crosshairs move way off? If you are doing these things, you are gonna see your heart beat in the crosshairs. Breathe. Relax. Slow that heartbeat down. Wear double hearing protection to ensure muzzle blast doesn't create a flinch. Dry firing with the techniques mentioned above should alleviate this though. But we don't want it coming back.

January 12, 2012, 12:36 PM	#62
browninghunter86 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2011 Posts: 524	it does not have the accustock just the accutrigger which I really like. I am about to go get some primers and head to the range

January 12, 2012, 01:12 PM	#63
browninghunter86 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2011 Posts: 524	how do you figure out gr weight to reduce when it says by x%? He says 7-10% below max and increments of 2%...how do you calculate that?

January 12, 2012, 01:17 PM	#64
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	10% below max is 90%... Multiply max load by 0.90. .7% is .007, 1% is .01, 2% .02 So, .7% of 50 is 50x.007, .35 2% of 50 is 50x.02, 1.0

January 12, 2012, 01:37 PM	#65
browninghunter86 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2011 Posts: 524	peetzakilla: preciate it

January 24, 2012, 10:56 AM	#66
browninghunter86 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2011 Posts: 524	how can you tell when brass needs to be thrown out? I am on my 10th reload with winchester brass that is neck sized only and trimmed when it needed it?

January 24, 2012, 01:02 PM	#68
browninghunter86 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2011 Posts: 524	thanks. no signs of neck splitting and primers are going in like they did on first load. there is bright marks on bottom of case where identifying brand and caliber writing is. everything else from what I see looks normal. still chambering fine.

January 24, 2012, 03:00 PM	#70
browninghunter86 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2011 Posts: 524	ok. ordering the hornady bullet comparator and headspace bushing along with the body so I can set up my FL die. The only thing I am having question about is why using the seating die set and it is secure that the OAL varies even with using same length cases and same length bullets and same powder charge? I know the actual bullet tips are slightly different most of the time. My lenght that shoots well has visible space before cannelure on hornady interlock but some cases is at bottom of cannelure. Any idea why this is or is it due to cannelure distance varrying?

January 24, 2012, 04:42 PM	#72
browninghunter86 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2011 Posts: 524	after I posted that last one I got to thining...like you said as long as the OAL is same then I should be good? Same seating die and setting and some OAL I am getting are 2.794" and 2.801". I did measure each bullet and used ones with same length when loading but now they are mixed up in box so not sure which ones belong to which so can't say if they were same bullet length to begin with on the ones I just mentioned. I will definately seperate them next time like you said and will use ogive length to do so

January 24, 2012, 06:01 PM	#74
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	One thing you want to do is make sure you're getting a real, full stroke when you're seating the bullet. I have had a round or two come out a strange length and put it back through the seater and it comes out right. I find that I might "short-stroke" it occasionally even when I didn't think I did. Set up the press so you've got a solid, unmistakable stop and give it a solid push on the handle. Also, you might consider either getting a custom seating plug made (I think Lee does that) or drilling out the plug closer to true caliber diameter so it touches the bullets in a spot that is more consistent diameter. I drilled out the seating plugs in my Dead Length seating dies and get more consistent results. The closest bit to .308 would probably be 39/128, but I'm not sure. A machinist could cut it out exactly the size you wanted too, but might be pricey if they're not a close friend. You need, at the very least, a decent drill press. You can't do it by hand. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

January 24, 2012, 10:14 PM	#75
browninghunter86 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2011 Posts: 524	will neck sizing only work harden the brass?? Thought that was from FL sizing and over working the brass