New to C&R and have some questions.

[rburch]

So I just got my C&R last week, and have a few questions, mostly about what I can and can't do as far as selling or tranfering the weapons.

Can I give my C&R guns as gifts?

Or if my brother really likes one of the guns I bought, can I sell it to him if he doesn't have a C&R.

Slight variation on the last I buy say a CZ-82, and my brother really likes it and wants it. Can I sell him mine and then buy another to replace it?

None of this is something I'd do often, maybe once or twice during the 3 years, but I really don't want to get in trouble with the Feds.

Now the one that may be the dangerous issue is how often can I sell off guns to fund others. Atf says you can sell as a hobby or to improve your collection, but that's a bit vague.

I could easily see myself buys something and shoot it for a month or so before getting bored and selling/trading it to get something else.

If I do that every few months is it gonna raise red flags?

[jonnyc]

Your first 3 questions are not a problem with your C&R, but they might violate VA state law, check on that.
As to selling to enhance your collection...every few months shouldn't be a problem at all. There are guys who buy 5 or 10 of the same rifle, pick the best and sell the rest. I personally think that's way over the line, but it is done.

[Cheapshooter]

Now the one that may be the dangerous issue is how often can I sell off guns to fund others. Atf says you can sell as a hobby or to improve your collection, but that's a bit vague.

It does not say "sell as a hobby". It specifically says " to improve your collection"

Please read the topic C&R licensee question: case of rifles thread. All the posts. Especially post #20
And C&R selling and again, but make sure you read #s 13&14.

If you read the threads and posts I suggested, you may understand the situation a little better!

[Cheapshooter]

I see you did read the threads, at least one of them. Still don't get it?
Why push the envelope with the feds? Too many people using their C&R license to "sell as a hobby" as you so inaccurately put it, and we all loose.
Yes, find something nicer, and sell one of the same to get it, that would be OK. Just not a repeat over, and over.
Finding buddies that want to buy one, and buying more just to sell them the one you have for profit, or not could be a serious problem.
In my nearly 10 years as a C&R licensee, I have sold because I found a better one exactly twice. That's it. And when I did, I sold for the exact same as I had purchased for.
Please, if you want to be a dealer, get the proper license! Do us all a favor!

[rburch]

It does not say "sell as a hobby". It specifically says " to improve your collection"

See this is why I'm confused, because the FAQ page on the ATF sight about C&R and "engaging in business does specifically list as a hobby as one of the acceptable practices.

The term “engaged in the business,” as applicable to a firearms dealer, is defined as a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.

[rburch]

I don't want to be a dealer.

To clarify, the hobby as I see it is the collecting, not the selling. I don't see anything in the rules that say improving your collection means you have to buy identical models to what you sell.

I'm not planning to buy much, but looking to get a CZ-82, VZ-24, and maybe a Swiss K31.

Now say in 2 years the value of the VZ-24 shoots up, if I sell it for a profit and use the money to buy the M1 Carbine I've been really wanting, is that not improving my collection?

It seems to me the rules are aimed at people who are using the C&R as a side business or as they put it:

dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms

But again I'm new to this and may be completely wrong.

[Cheapshooter]

No, you don't necessarily have to sell to buy another of the same type. Bad example on my part.

enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.

Note the position of the comma. I could be wrong, but I read that meaning as collecting as in collectibles that never see a range, and for a hobby as buying milsurps as shooters as all of mine are. But certainly not buying and selling as a hobby. It is very confusing, but isn't anything dealing with a government agency?
As you mention you are only planning to get a few, probably no problems with the nice man in a suit from the BATF.
By the way, I notice you used there new name ATF. I think their real name of Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms and Explosives with the Bureau part in it must sound to commy to them.
My personal decision dealing with any Federal agency has always been to err on the side of caution.
You mentioned wanting only a few C&Rs, but believe me, as you will find out, your bound book will soon look more the size of a phone book. It's habit forming.
You might find the following site interesting and informative. http://milsurpshooter.net/ The C&R dealer link hasn't been working lately, so go to the site related issues thread for the correct link.
Good luck, and enjoy this great hobby.
Bob

[madcratebuilder]

Selling a few C&R guns a year on your C&R lic is fine. A few a month is pushing it. BATF has bigger fish to fry. Keep your paper work up to date and correct and you should be fine.

[rburch]

Thanks for the help guys, I think I'm begining to understand enough to get started.

One additional question, I know the C&R lets me bypass the background check on elligable guns, my local shop has a few that should be good with C&R.

Do I just sign a copy of the C&R and turn that over to him?

Oh and if I have stuff I bought previously that are C&R elligable, do I need to list them in my book?

I have an old spanish mauser, and a Win 1897 for example that were bought years ago. I believe since they weren't bought with the C&R they don't need to be listed?

[TLeo]

You do not need to list any C&R weapons in your book that were owned prior to getting your license. I do believe that if you sell them you must list them however as being sold.
I have had some store dealers take my signed license copy and nothing else and had some still want me to fill out a form (but without the NICS check). Obviously, if you do any purchasing through the mail with persons or companies, you would only be using your signed copy.

[Cheapshooter]

Thanks for the help guys, I think I'm begining to understand enough to get started.

A couple more things to help you get started.
1. Remember don't sign your original license Make copies, and sign them. Although the BATF has recently allowed FAXed copies to be accepted instead of a hard copy, some dealers still want a signed copy, and not a copy of a signed license.
2. Make a list of all the distributors you might want to buy something from now, or in the future, and send them a signed copy of your FFL. They will keep it on file so they have it whenever you order from them. You might want to email them first to ask if they accept a FAX copy, or want a hard copy.
3. Also send copies to places like Midway USA, and Graf & Sons. An FFL will get you a discount at many places.
(the site link I mentioned before will help you find dealers)
4. Have a bound book with plenty of pages, you'll need them! LOL

[stickhauler]

Just remember, some gun shops refuse to accept a C & R license to purchase a C & R firearm. Many don't really understand the license itself, or decide to transfer all firearms as a normal non-C & R transfer simply to cover their butt. I won't say ALL go that route, but I have found some who refuse to even consider transferring a firearm with them. They also lost the sale to me over the matter, because I could find dealers who would accept the license for the transfer.

[Cheapshooter]

Just remember, some gun shops refuse to accept a C & R license to purchase a C & R firearm.

And if you buy one from them you will still need to enter it in your bound book.
For the type of C&R firearms I buy, milsurps, I never buy from a lgs anyway. Their prices are usually higher because they are getting them from the same source I can. They are a business, and must make a profit.