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Old October 19, 2018, 09:02 PM   #1
timothy75
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Have we lightened up on 1911 shooters finally?

I remember a few years ago you were deemed irresponsible if you carried a big heavy, low capacity, hair triggered, manual safety, less than uber reliable, outdated 1911 for protection. What gives???

I see the carry what your most comfortable with argument still being mentioned. Sometimes the gun you shoot best comes up too. Have we finally accepted people carrying whatever the heck they choose because it makes them happy? Have we acknowledged the miniscule odds of getting caught in a gunfight? Have we lost our drive to be super awesome operators bro? Aren't we still supposed to shun them and say ''How much is your life worth?'' Can I carry a 4'' 357 while running a damn errand now or are we not there yet??? What are your thoughts??
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Old October 19, 2018, 09:25 PM   #2
Onward Allusion
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I've always believed that people should carry whatever they want. Their life & their loved ones. Keep in mind that people get harassed for carrying:

- mouse guns
- full-sized high cap guns
- 5 shot J-Framesre
- 22 LR
- Taurus
- single action revolvers

The list goes on and on because we got a lot of people who believe in different things. That's why wars happen, villages get leveled, history gets re-written...etc...etc.
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Old October 19, 2018, 11:07 PM   #3
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Hey, you asked!
I've grown bored with folks and their "carry rotation." Also have a genuine YAWN for these operators who change guns and chosen ammo in them based on their idea of the thick, heavy coat that their adversary will certainly be wearing as the weather turns colder.
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Old October 20, 2018, 12:39 AM   #4
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There seems to be a lot of projection in this question. If you've run into some real a holes in the past I'm sorry to hear that. Can I guarantee for you that people won't pass judgement on the internet? No, that's how this has worked for as long as I can remember. In my experience that judgement has a lot to do with people justifying their decisions by telling people who have chosen differently why they are wrong. At the same time just because you like something doesn't mean that you shouldn't always consider the pros and the cons.

I really don't care what someone else carries unless he or she is fundamental to my security. I will say the argument against capacity that is often made because of the odds of ending up in a gunfight has always run hollow to me. If you're going to go that way then you could make the argument that you likely don't need to carry at all. Now I don't carry as much as likely someone out there does so it will depend a lot on your point of view, but I do think that rationalizing based on odds can be a lazy way out of considering that factor.

I've carried a 4" Model 19 before. To me it's a lot more work than carrying a number of other pistols. But if it's what you want to do more power to you.

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Old October 20, 2018, 07:56 AM   #5
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As long as the person stays competent and proficient, while maintaining adherence to laws and social norms, I do not care what other people do with their lives.

I have carried 2 North American Arms 22 Mag revolvers. I have carried a Sig Sauer P238 plus the above revolvers. I have even carried my 1911s, as concealed carry, in Condition 1.

If there was a rimfire round that I knew was 100% reliable for 22 LR, heck, I’d carry this thing.


Integrated Suppressor in my Ruger Mark IV Target 22 LR.


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Old October 20, 2018, 08:02 AM   #6
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All I care about is what I choose to carry and my focus is on training regularly and adequately with it to be able to use it if I need to use it in a real situation.

I'm tired of hardware debates or caliber debates.

I have a pretty strong opinion at this point that the people who argue the most about choice of gear and ammo are among the least qualified when it comes actually to shooting under stress in real-world scenarios.

So, honestly, screw them. That's my attitude.
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Old October 20, 2018, 09:05 AM   #7
Glenn E. Meyer
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I have not seen the effect the OP suggests in the real world of trained shooters. Perhaps square range commandos have such opinions.
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Old October 20, 2018, 09:31 AM   #8
Nanuk
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Quote:
I remember a few years ago you were deemed irresponsible if you carried a big heavy, low capacity, hair triggered, manual safety, less than uber reliable, outdated 1911 for protection. What gives???

I see the carry what your most comfortable with argument still being mentioned. Sometimes the gun you shoot best comes up too. Have we finally accepted people carrying whatever the heck they choose because it makes them happy? Have we acknowledged the miniscule odds of getting caught in a gunfight? Have we lost our drive to be super awesome operators bro? Aren't we still supposed to shun them and say ''How much is your life worth?'' Can I carry a 4'' 357 while running a damn errand now or are we not there yet??? What are your thoughts??
Wow. Quite an attitude, seems like you are itching for an argument.
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Old October 20, 2018, 10:27 AM   #9
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I think people should carry anything they want to as long as it's a revolver or a 1911.
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Old October 20, 2018, 12:15 PM   #10
T. O'Heir
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"...you were deemed irresponsible if..." By who? Or is it whom?
Glenn's "range commandos" all seem to think they're going into combat and not just "running a damn errand". Anyway, read enough western novels and you'll be thinking SAA or the like. Either way, you'll be fine.
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Old October 20, 2018, 02:23 PM   #11
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The firearms world, like so many others, has its fads, its fashions, its fancies. Cf. the constant caliber debates, the attempts to introduce "the" round, "the" loading that will put all others in the shade.
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Old October 20, 2018, 03:59 PM   #12
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My thought is that someone should carry whatever they know is reliable and they can shoot accurately. Reliability and the ability to shoot accurately trumps anything else.
You cannot miss fast enough to win a fight.

Back when I was younger and only had a Ruger MKII that I shot almost every day and knew it was 100% with certain ammo and I knew I could hit a softball every time at 50 yards, that is what I carried. 11 40gr pieces of lead in someones head is a darn good deterrent.
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Old October 21, 2018, 02:46 AM   #13
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I don't care what anybody thinks. Make mine a 1911 in .45 ACP.
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Old October 21, 2018, 05:34 AM   #14
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One time in my life, I studied gunfights, rounds fired, calibres, time of day or night. Police-non Police.

I came to the conclusion, lots of bullets cannot be bad! Night sights? Good idea.

Most of the worlds law enforcement carried 9mm!

So make mine Glock 19, 4th gen, TruGlo night sights. Always! Same holster, same place on the belt. Spare G17 on the offside, full of NATO hardball, why not?

Carry every day.
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Old October 21, 2018, 12:43 PM   #15
fastbolt
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Personally, as a longtime 1911 owner & shooter I never cared much one way or another what weapon someone decided to carry.

As an instructor, I never cared what weapon someone decided to carry on or off-duty as long as they could manipulate it and shoot it well in the assorted training & qual scenarios we devised that introduced controlled stress on the shooter's skills and judgement, and the weapon's ability to run reliably when pushed hard.

If one or another particular shooter consistently did better, and was more comfortable and confident with a particular weapon selection, that's what I helped them learn to run well.

Now, when certain little groups or cliques like to gather around the gab sessions that inevitably occur somewhere off the firing line, or at a gun store counter, it's about as interesting to me as when dogs gather to sniff each other's butts. I tend to avoid those things.
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Old October 21, 2018, 01:19 PM   #16
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I really don't care what people carry, whether it's a .22 LCR or a .45 1911. I just want them to carry. The more people that do, the safer our community is.

The only push back I've ever experienced has been from a certain group that believes if you're not carrying a striker fired gun, usually from a certain brand, then you're doing something wrong. I had this debate with the counter guy when picking up my latest purchase. I can clearly articulate the logical thought process which led me to decide on the system I use. What I've found is they usually cannot; it's more of a religion based on group-think verses logic.

Bottom line, carry your 1911 or anything else all you want.
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Old October 21, 2018, 01:40 PM   #17
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I would agree with Glenn that none of the folks whose opinions matter to me give a rats behind what a competent person carries. Anyone who carries a concealed handgun who knows its advantages and limitations, and is well trained and proficient in its use is a great representative for all of us who support the 2A.

Quote:
Glenn's "range commandos" all seem to think they're going into combat and not just "running a damn errand".
The above quote represents the attitude that someone who expects the best but prepares for the worst, e.g., someone who carries a 1911to the market is somehow a wannabe commando. If I could accurately predict when "combat" would happen I would only carry a gun then, and it would not be a handgun. Until then I will carry what makes me most comfortable, whether running to the grocery store or driving through a metropolis.
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Old October 21, 2018, 01:42 PM   #18
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You can carry a Taurus 1911 for all I care. Good luck!
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Old October 21, 2018, 02:09 PM   #19
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The equipment arguments can get very silly very fast because most seem based on how people speculate their participation in a real gunfight will unfold, an event most of them will never experience and in which, should they be so unfortunate as to experience one, they will discover their speculation was largely irrelevant to. The same with sighted vs. point shooting arguments. Imagination rather than experience appears to dominate choices. The research I've seen on that particular subject indicates it is very complicated to determine what is true and what is self-fulfilling prophecy. It's an area where one may cherry-pick data to support whatever one is predisposed to believe, and that's what I perceive most people to be doing. About the only thing everyone seems to be agreed on is that shot placement matters most to ending an actual gunfight in the shortest possible time. But first the confrontation has to escalate to an actual gunfight, and that is not usually what happens.

Psychological factors are most likely to determine the outcome of actual confrontations with criminals before a gunfight can even commence. Dr. Gary Kleck's work found about 80% of criminal assaults are aborted when the bad guy sees his intended victim is armed. That predominant psychological result involves no shots being fired at all. Of the remaining 20%, where at least one shot is fired, something on the order of 90% are single discharges that don't hit anyone, instead, serving as warning shots (whether the miss was intentional or not) that convince the more stubborn or stupid criminals to abort and run.

From the standpoint of creating a psychological effect that is most likely to resolve a pre-gunfight confrontation in your favor and without escalation, you want the bad guy to be as wary of you and your weapon as possible. I've heard claims bad guys find bigger handgun muzzle diameters scarier than small ones, but don't know of an actual study done to support that. I know from personal experience that exhibiting total confidence in your own ability to dominate a fight is something bad guys will read in your body language and demeanor that can result in them aborting an intended assault.

If you take as your objective to end confrontations with criminals without having to shoot someone and go through all the subsequent legal, publicity and, for some more than others, emotional consequences of doing that, then you have to think carefully through your choices and your training to determine what you will bring to such a confrontation. Knowing that if you have to shoot it will statistically most often be one shot, regardless of whether it hits or not, then is a large capacity magazine still going to give you a significant psychological confidence edge over the six-shots you in a revolver? If so, by all means, eliminate smaller capacity guns from among your choices. Just recognize that choice is statistically much more about positively influencing your own mindset than it is about what you are actually likely to have to do. Therefore it cannot be counted on to be a necessary choice for everybody.

Jeff Cooper taught, correctly, as Kleck's research showed, that attitude and psychology win most fights. He also advised training with the most powerful weapon you can control adequately, which speaks to what the criminal also may be most leary of. Using those tools to avoid having to shoot anybody makes the most sense to me. How you choose to equip yourself for such situations is often more about you than about the mechanics of gunfights.
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Old October 21, 2018, 02:15 PM   #20
Rockrivr1
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Really don't care what people think about what I carry or don't carry. I have a warm weather carry (Keltec P3AT) and a cold weather carry (Kimber Ultra Carry II) that works great for me.
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Old October 22, 2018, 07:59 AM   #21
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Too many options out there and lots of opinions on all of them. You could probably post one simple thing like "Beretta 92" and start a whole new round of debates and opinions.
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Old October 22, 2018, 01:53 PM   #22
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Regarding firearms, like a lot of subjects, there are a certain set of people who stroke their own egos by mouthing off the most while knowing the least. Consider credentials before deciding who to listen to.
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Old October 22, 2018, 03:49 PM   #23
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I carry either a full size Colt 1911 or a Sig 228.

If anyone out there wants to roast me for my choices, go for it! I am not easily offended.
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Old October 22, 2018, 06:32 PM   #24
Ed4032
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How else would you carry the only real man stopping gun. Every one knows the 9mm will bounce off people.


Just kidding.
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Old October 23, 2018, 02:06 PM   #25
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Relevancy. You know why those who felt they had to defend their choice of handgun rallied against the 1911 at one point? Because they saw it as a reasonable "threat" to the dominance of their preferred handgun.

There is a reason that Nick Saban doesn't spend time talking about Rutgers.

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