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Old November 30, 2018, 11:22 AM   #26
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What’s a moon clip?
It is a circular clip holding the rounds. Originally metal, most still are, some today are plastic. (I'm sure someone has a pic)
Works like a speedloader, except the rounds all stay clipped together. Requires the gun to be made or remade with clearance for the clip. Will NOT work in a gun not modified to use them.

The majority of moon & half moon clips are for using .45acp in a Colt & S&W 1917 revolvers. They will also work in converted Webleys. There are, today, some made for other calibers, for use in specially made competition revolvers.

Also originally called a "full moon clip", because the earlier 3rnd clips were called "half moon" due to their shape.


Hope this helps
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Old November 30, 2018, 11:23 AM   #27
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Quote:
What’s a moon clip?
Here ya go:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_clip
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Old November 30, 2018, 06:10 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by 44_AMP
Semi auto pistol rounds are short, for two reasons. First, they were all developed in the smokeless powder era, so case volume could be less than equal power black powder rounds, and second, the need to be short enough to fit inside the magazine in the pistol grip, comfortably.

.45 Colt - 1873 - black powder

.45ACP - 1911 - smokeless
for one example...
Good example ... since I load for both, I can offer a bit of a comparison.

First, we have to remember that when the .45 ACP cartridge was developed, the goal was to replicate the ballistics of the older .45 Colt round. With modern, smokeless powders .45 Colt can be souped up quite a bit hotter than the original black powder loading, but the intent of the Ordnance Department for .45 ACP was to have a semi-automatic pistol with the same power as the .45 Colt revolvers that would be replaced by the new pistol.

For .45 ACP, I load using Winchester 231 (or Hodgdon HP-38) powder. My standard load is 5.3 grains of powder, which fills a .45 ACP case a little less than halfway. A double charge doesn't spill over, but it's close enough that seating a bullet would compress the powder.

To reach the same velocity with the same weight bullet in .45 Colt, I need 6 grains in Win 231. And even 6 grains in that larger case doesn't fill it more than maybe a quarter of the way. I really have to look carefully to see if the charge dropped, and it would probably take a triple charge or more to overflow the case. But with black powder, the rule-of-thumb is no empty case volume -- the bullet should seat against the powder and compress it slightly.

In fact, there's so much excess case volume using Winchester 231 in .45 Colt that it's not possible to get consistent velocities, because the powder moves around in the case. For that reason, I just bought some Trail Boss powder, which is a much fluffier, bulkier powder that's designed for use in the older, larger, black powder descended cases. I haven't tried it yet, but a friend who shoots cowboy action told me that's all he uses, and his advice was to "just fill it up and cram the bullet on top of it." I don't think I'll go to that extreme, but the point I'm trying to make is that those older, larger cases aren't ideally suited for smokeless powders because of the excess volume issue. And that's why Trail Boss was developed.
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Old November 30, 2018, 08:00 PM   #29
Andy Blozinski
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So would it be OK to load a .38 special casing with modern powder to .357 magnum loading and fire it in a .357 magnum?
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Old November 30, 2018, 08:06 PM   #30
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So would it be OK to load a .38 special casing with modern powder to .357 magnum loading and fire it in a .357 magnum?
I know of folks that did just that for bowling pin loads- the shorter cases were allegedly faster to eject from the cylinder for faster reloads. They did note that it beat the hell out of the brass ...... I figured it beat their guns, too. I stick with published loads.....
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Old November 30, 2018, 11:19 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Andy Blozinski
So would it be OK to load a .38 special casing with modern powder to .357 magnum loading and fire it in a .357 magnum?
That depends on what you consider a .357 Magnum loading. Depending on which powder you choose, you might or might not be able to fit enough powder into the smaller/shorter case to match .357 velocities with the same weight bullets and without exceeding .3557 Magnum pressures. But it should be possible with some experimentation.

However, if you mean taking the powder charge for a .357 Magnum load and cramming that into a .38 Special case, then you're creating a significantly higher-power load than the corresponding .357 Magnum, and you're treading into uncharted and unsafe territory.
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Old December 1, 2018, 07:41 AM   #32
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I remember Skeeter Skelton used to write about loading 38 brass to 357 or at least near 357 velocity for use in 357 guns ONLY. Seems he had a ton of 38 brass and 357 brass was hard to get in those long ago days. I don't think he even gave any load data, just said he did it. Of course Skeeter and his cronies did a lot of stuff that would make our hair stand up today.

At the time I thought it would a good idea for the same reason. I had an old fashioned paper grocery bag full of 38 brass. Ummmm let's try this. Fortunately my better sense prevailed for one of the very few times in my life.
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Old December 2, 2018, 03:12 PM   #33
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Another thing is you wouldn't be able to take advantage of the shorter length cartridge in a revolver.
In order to get the most benefit from the shorter cartridge, you would shorten the front of the cylinder and move the barrel back on the frame to make an overall shorter revolver. The problem is, that would put the cylinder gap directly over your hand. Not good. Especially if you hold it two handed and have fingers resting everywhere in that area.

The longer cylinder of current revolver designs puts that gap safely ahead of the trigger-guard. And if you have to have the extra space anyway, might as well use it.

Although you could have various shields on the frame to protect the hand from the gasses. Revolving carbines often have those.
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Old December 2, 2018, 04:02 PM   #34
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Didn't Elmer Keith develop the 44 Magnum by overloading 44 Special cases ? And wouldn't a hot loaded 38 Special be what was called a 38-44, what we would call a +P ?
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Old December 2, 2018, 09:11 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by JohnKSa
9mm Federal was also loaded a good bit hotter than standard 9mm Luger.
.45 Auto Rim over .45 ACP too.
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Old December 3, 2018, 07:06 AM   #36
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FWIW, I never use moonclips with my S&W 625 revolver (45acp). I just tap the butt against the shooting bench and the brass falls out of the open cylinder. Sometimes a piece will only fall out halfway, so I just pluck it out with my fingers. Maybe mine has slightly larger cylinders than most, but for casual shooting with my particular revolver, moonclips seem unnecessary.

I shoot 45acp with one of my Blackhawks a lot. It has an extra cylinder for that purpose. They eject with the rod just the same as 45 colt.

I recently got a Charter Arms revolver in 45acp. It has little curved leaf spring thingies that hold the rounds in place in the cylinder. They eject easily, too.

It wasn't designed for revolvers, but 45acp is a fun round to use with them.
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Old December 3, 2018, 08:17 AM   #37
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There were early semi-automatics but most of the early ones were also based around the smaller length cartridges; 6.35, 7.65 and the rimfire cartridges IIRC.
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Old December 3, 2018, 08:52 AM   #38
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"It was going to be a great idea until someone realized those high pressured 9mm Federal rounds fit perfectly into the low pressure 38 S&W Top Break revolvers that are still around....Lawyers nixed that little project real fast ."

What nixed the 9mm Federal project was the fact that Charter Arms, which worked with Federal to develop the cartridge and accompanying revolver, crashed and burned into bankruptcy.

No other manufacturer was interested in the project AND the aforementioned cartridge interchangeability caused the entire project to be dropped.



'9mm Federal was also loaded a good bit hotter than standard 9mm Luger."

No, it wasn't.

Federal factory ballistics were for a 115-gr. HP at a nominal 1280 fps, which was right in the ballpark with other 115-gr. loadings from Federal, Winchester, and others.
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Old December 3, 2018, 08:56 AM   #39
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"So would it be OK to load a .38 special casing with modern powder to .357 magnum loading and fire it in a .357 magnum?"

That can be a dicey proposition.

.38 Special cases are generally not quite as thick through the case head and web.

There's also the problem that once you approach .357 Mag ballistics in the short case you can spike pressures VERY rapidly, sometimes to the point where you could damage the brass, gun, or even yourself if you're not careful.
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Old December 3, 2018, 09:17 AM   #40
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".45 Auto Rim over .45 ACP too."

That's always been the story, but nothing I've ever found has really backed that up.

The Peters 1926 catalog (the first one I could find after the 1919 introduction of the Auto Rim) shows identical ballistics for the 230 FMJ loadings of the .45 ACP and .45 Auto Rim -- 809 fps, or right at what the standard military loading was for the .45 ACP at the time.

The lead bullet loading is an interesting one... its got a 255 gr. bullet at 740 fps.

The first mention of the .45 AR I can find in Remington's ammo catalog that comes with ballistics is from 1933, and again, stated ballistics with a 230-gr. bullet are identical -- 810 fps.

I can find no evidence that any of the ammo companies ever loaded the .45 Auto Rim hotter than the .45 ACP.

I suspect, as time rolled on and more became known about the WW I revolvers, especially the S&W revolvers (let's just stay that corners were cut to get guns into the hands of the troops), that ballistics for the .45 Auto Rim were actually tamed down and switched mostly to lead bullets.




Interestingly, I just found this statement on Wikipedia (gah!)

"Loads offered were similar to the standard military loads for the .45ACP, but with fully lead bullets rather than the full metal jacket bullets used for .45ACP."

That's not the case. Original loads for the .45 AR, as I've noted above, mirrored military FMJ loads and with jacketed bullets. It was only later that the AR tended to be loaded with lead bullets, and general warnings about avoiding shooting the 1917 revolvers with jacketed bullets started to come out.
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Old December 3, 2018, 03:01 PM   #41
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My understanding about the general advice to shoot lead in the .45AR over jacketed was for barrel life. Replacing a worn barrel in a 1911A1 is a trivial task. Not so in a revolver.
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Old December 3, 2018, 03:14 PM   #42
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It's also because heat treating standards on the frames and cylinders were relaxed because that took time, and time interfered with getting handguns into the hands of troops.

Numerous writers have speculated over the years that cylinder throats, which are known to be well oversized on late war 1917s, may have been done intentionally to reduce pressure.
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Old December 3, 2018, 03:32 PM   #43
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Now that SAAMI has gotten into it, the .45 Auto Rim is specified at a substantially lower chamber pressure than .45 ACP, 15,000 CUP vs 18,000.
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Old December 3, 2018, 06:47 PM   #44
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Without moons in a Colt New Service or 1917 S&W wouldn't the firing pin come
up short of uniform strikes? I hate moons and use 45AR in any that I had. I got
a couple m25-2s that have never fired a 45acp or a jacketed bullet.
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Old December 3, 2018, 10:39 PM   #45
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Without moons in a Colt New Service or 1917 S&W wouldn't the firing pin come
up short of uniform strikes?
See post #17 in this thread
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Old December 5, 2018, 12:57 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Mike Irwin View Post
It's also because heat treating standards on the frames and cylinders were relaxed because that took time, and time interfered with getting handguns into the hands of troops.

Numerous writers have speculated over the years that cylinder throats, which are known to be well oversized on late war 1917s, may have been done intentionally to reduce pressure.
I think it has more to do with the revolvers shooting FMJ, not lead bullets. Having a revolver swage a copper jacketed bullet with the forcing cone will definitely shorten the life of the gun, so they opened up the throats to reduce stress on these revolvers that already had softer frames and cylinders to speed up manufacturing.

A jacketed bullet won't lead a bore, so making the throats larger didn't harm anything.
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Old December 5, 2018, 05:20 AM   #47
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Check out the s&w 547, if you like the idea of 9mm revolvers that don’t use moon clips.....

LINK
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Old December 9, 2018, 12:57 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by COSteve View Post
In addition to the above, the primary reason that semi-auto brass is short is that people's hands are only so big so it limits how big the grip can be. As the mag slides up the grip in all but a few (Broomhandle Mauser C96 comes to mind as one that doesn't) the length of the rd is restricted to what will fit into a grip people can use.

More modern, higher pressure powders came along that allowed for 9mm, 40s&w, 10mm, 40 Super, 45 Super, etc. high pressure cartridges to be developed without the need for larger, magnum sized brass which allows for their use in a semi-auto.
This. Revolver cases are not long...semi auto cases are short.
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Old December 9, 2018, 10:15 AM   #49
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It's also because heat treating standards on the frames and cylinders were relaxed because that took time, and time interfered with getting handguns into the hands of troops.
Do you have a link to support that claim? Having been educated in metallurgy, having performed heat-treatment of steels, and observed it being performed in manufacturing facilities, a few hours more or less (not days), for the process, it does not strike me as a process that would likely need abandoning to save manufacture time. Nevertheless, I am willing to be educated...
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Old December 10, 2018, 07:52 AM   #50
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No, those are claims that have been made throughout the years. I've heard it from various collectors and others over the years.

Supposedly the heat treating process that S&W was using at the start of US entry into the war was one of the major reasons that S&W couldn't get its production up to the levels demanded by the US military and contributed directly to the Army's take over of the plant in 1918.

There's some interesting tidbits in this discussion at the S&W Forums...

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-han...cylinders.html


There's also some contradictory information on heat treating in this discussion: http://elfishingmusician.blogspot.co...nd-wesson.html

My understanding however, is that it works out this way...

When introduced, the New Century Triple Lock (the basis for the N frame 1917) chambered the relatively low-pressure .44 Special round and didn't really require much in the way of heat treating.

When the British requested revolvers in .455 Webley for their war effort, the same was true. The .455 also operated in the same pressure range as the .44 Special, or right around 15,000 psi.

When S&W started production of .45 ACP 1917s for the US military, it was quickly found that the .45's operating pressure of 21,000 psi, combined with the S&Ws relatively thin chamber walls, was causing problems with cylinder damage.

This is, according to some, the genesis of S&W's heat treating of the cylinders as well as the opening up of the chamber mouths to reduce pressure.

Someone above posited that the primary reason for this was because of the FMJ bullets. That's an interesting though, but I know of no issues with the barrels on early S&W 1917s -- all reported issues were with the cylinders and frames.

There are also reports of British/Canadian S&Ws chambered in .455 coming back into the United States being converted to .45 ACP when .455 became unavailable suffering cracked or blown cylinders. This is the same kind of problem that many have run into with Webley revolvers converted to .45 ACP -- the operating pressure of the .45 round is simply too high for the guns originally chambered in .455.

Anyway, do I have proof positive? No. Just a lot of interesting tidbits that point toward some very interesting conclusions.
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