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Old January 12, 2019, 08:32 PM   #1
Monday
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Electric ignited firearm?

Hello, I have a few ideas about a firearm ignited through a 9 Volt battery. The design is very simple, give me your thoughts.

I originally had an idea of a very simple firearm using a quick match to ignite, the reason why I preferred a fast fuse initially instead of an E-match, is because the time it take to connect wires together., it can be pretty awkward. But I realized that I can use magnets to connect the wires, which will make the wires snap in place by themself. Like this Magnetic Wire Connections - YouTube

Here’s my main idea, it’s a muzzleloaded weapon. In this case the cartridge is the same length as the barrel


I also tought that it could be possible,to use shorter cartridges instead, just like ordinary rounds. These cartridges has to have the same dimension as the bullet, and the whole round could be forced down through a strong magnet instead of a ramrod, like this


Here’s another version with the magnetic wire connection inside the chamber, it will work for barrel-length cartridges atleast.


In order to extract the case, either you have to pull the wires out if they are connected to the cartridge, or have another string connected to the cartridge.

Maybe a spring can be used to eject the cartridge automatically, as an ejector, like this


Or a string connected to the projectile/sabot, like this


With sabot (when the sabot pushes the cartridge out, the projectile just contuneing forward, they are’nt attached together.



How long does that strong and thin string, made of fishing line or similar, need to be? The pressure has to leave the chamber and bore before the string can push the cartridge out..

A combustible cartridge could also be used instead, maybe.

The purpose with this gun, is to create a very simple design, that will never jam, but still could be reloaded at a decent rate.
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Old January 12, 2019, 08:34 PM   #2
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However, here’s a backloaded full-auto version


Crudely described, but you get the idea.

The cases are also the projectiles, even though maybe combustible cases can be used instead. This design is very simpler than a ordinary full/semi-auto, not that much that can go wrong and jam on this one.
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Old January 12, 2019, 09:14 PM   #3
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Remington beat you to an "electronic" firearm about ten years ago.
https://www.popularmechanics.com/tec.../a211/1277311/
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Old January 13, 2019, 03:40 AM   #4
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E-Tronix.

Unfortunately, primers have become exceedingly expensive, when you can find a reasonable quantity.
I would own one ... if I could get primers.


"String" or "ripcord" extraction would likely only be viable with a very strong filament, at low muzzle velocities, and with some type of shock-absorption incorporated.
But even if it worked, whatever that trailing case is going to do to the bullet will probably be undesirable.
The concept, as funky as it may be, is better off with a separate "case extraction" wad, pellet, gas seal, etc....
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Old January 13, 2019, 04:41 AM   #5
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As has been mentioned,Remington already introduced the product. They sold primers for reloading,too.

Technically,I suppose there were some potential accuracy advantages via eliminating the striker impulse.We consumers apparently were not sold.

Its good you are thinking. I really do not want to shred all your ideas.

I suggest you test some of your concepts. Example:It seems you suggest a magnet can replace the ramrod of a muzzleloader. Ok..Try the attraction of a very strong neomydium magnet from a distance of 6 inches or so.

Edison made a light bulb not only because a dream floated around in his head,but he made over 3000 versions that did not work.

I'll tell you ,at best,it will just get your idea ripped off, putting it out in public for comment. Getting the cosmic fantasy to break through the skull to something that can be held in the hand,that works...That is where genius meets hard work,and,BTW,the important part of that genius IS transforming the thought into something in the real world that works.

There is a lot more to it than contemplating your navel.

These days,with solid modeling software and 3-D printing,its a lot easier than it was for a sailor at sea to carve a working model of wood..(The single action revolver)
Maybe you can find the old movie "Carbine Williams".Its a real story about a man in prison to took an axle and a fencepost and crafted a working model of a short stroke gas operated carbine that evolved into the M-1 Carbine.
He did not just "Think of a good idea"

There was a time when schools attepted to inspire us with stories of people like Eli Whitney.Look him up. He gave us interchangeable parts.

No one else will compose your symphony for you.Thousands will tell you it can't be done.

Off topic a bit,do some research on the Gyrojet pistol.It was not electric,but it was novel,and some of the layout resembled your sketch.

It seems we DO run into limits with the laws of physics...but lets not be stopped by the limits of another man's imagination.

Last edited by HiBC; January 13, 2019 at 04:56 AM.
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Old January 13, 2019, 05:33 AM   #6
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Actually, it has been done as primitively as you can imagine, by an inmate, (Canadian, IIRC), using soda can aluminum for the barrel, match heads for powder, battery for ignition, a piece of a snack bag to contain the "powder", pieces of steel wool for the igniter wires, a bolt for a breech block and handle, and AA batteries and scraped up lead "caulking" for projectiles. If you can find it, somewhere on YouTube there was a video he made showing how he built it. Completely functional, reloadable, and could fire the batteries through a sheet metal fence outside his cell. He never fired it at a human being, again, IIRC.
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Old January 13, 2019, 05:07 PM   #7
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Back in the sixties, Popular Mechanics had an article about a gun that used caseless ammo, where I believe the powder was also ignited by a spark. The powder was a solid and the idea was to eliminate the most expensive part of factory ammo.....the brass case.
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Old January 13, 2019, 10:03 PM   #8
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Trying to remember. Didn’t Daisy do something like that back in the olde days....maybe the 90’s....??
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Old January 13, 2019, 10:11 PM   #9
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Quote:
Back in the sixties, Popular Mechanics had an article about a gun that used caseless ammo, where I believe the powder was also ignited by a spark. The powder was a solid and the idea was to eliminate the most expensive part of factory ammo.....the brass case.
The Gyrojet. But it wasn't electronically ignited.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cJAXpyt8-oQ
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Old January 13, 2019, 10:25 PM   #10
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electrically ignited ammunition has been in use in certain aircraft and tank cannons since WWII.

Seems to work well enough there, though I don't see the point for personal small arms. Target gun, maybe...

A failed battery leaving your dot sight dead is one thing. A failed battery preventing your gun from firing at all, is quite another.
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Old January 13, 2019, 10:25 PM   #11
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Trying to remember. Didn’t Daisy do something like that back in the olde days....maybe the 90’s....??
The Daisy VL. Caseless ammo, but not electronic either. It was ignited by the compressed air of the "air rifle" like action forced through a tiny hole superheating the air.
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Old January 14, 2019, 07:14 AM   #12
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I think Daisy's VL was in the late 60s, I remember thinking it was a cool system but ammo was pricey.
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Old January 14, 2019, 11:12 AM   #13
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http://www.cartridgecollector.net/57...voere-caseless

Austrian gun
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Old January 14, 2019, 11:59 AM   #14
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Since you seem to want to fire your inventions with electricity you could drill a hole at the back of the barrel and insert a loop of wire with the center stripped of insulator and hooked to a battery. Add the loose powder and ball. Send the power through the wire and the wire will heat up and set off the powder. I know because I have done it. But it took more than one 9v battery.

I have also set off BP with a model airplane engine glow plug. That only took a 1.5v battery. I just used loose powder. I am not sure how long a glow plug element would last in a closed bomb enviroment and the pressure generated. But they last quite a while in the engine cylinder chamber with an engine turning 15,000 RPM. So who knows.

At least you could do away with the silly strings and wires running down the barrel like in your designs.
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Old January 14, 2019, 12:41 PM   #15
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Quote:
Since you seem to want to fire your inventions with electricity you could drill a hole at the back of the barrel and insert a loop of wire with the center stripped of insulator and hooked to a battery. Add the loose powder and ball. Send the power through the wire and the wire will heat up and set off the powder. I know because I have done it. But it took more than one 9v battery.
If you're okay with one-time-use, thinner wire is better. It'll also work with just a 9V battery.
I recently made some electric ignitors to set off powder charges for destruction of a bad muzzle loader barrel.
I used 28/29 ga wire and scraped the section where I wanted the heat. It increases the resistance at that point, which allows one to choose where the heating will occur.
But, as I opened with... it's a one-time-use affair.
9(+)V, unrestricted, melts the wire every time.

Since I was using a combination of BP and smokeless powder in conventional and unconventional ways, and not in a fully closed chamber, I added a match head to my ignitors for a longer burn.
I would have used 32 ga wire for quicker ignition, but couldn't find my spool at the time...


For the record, 150 gr of FFg under a 450 gr bullet, with another 450 gr bullet and a .45 ACP case 18" from the breech, was not enough to pop a Traditions .54 caliber octagonal barrel. It barely bulged it.
Things will be stepped up for Round Two in the spring...
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Old January 14, 2019, 01:40 PM   #16
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Go for it ...times have changed and shooters might be willing to buy it today !
Remington's Etron-X just didn't sell and it faded away . But maybe it was just 10 years ahead of it's time !
Target shooters should have flocked to that trigger but now that long range shooting is all the rage maybe it's time has come.
Pressing a button has to be less jarring than a conventional trigger system and that would relate to better accuracy at extended ranges .
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Old January 14, 2019, 07:37 PM   #17
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My old man built a electric pistol back in 50s. He used a 9v battery and capacitor for ignition
The trigger was a micro switch. His only experimenting was the spark source. What ever he
was using was a fine metallic wool that had to be replaced for each shot. He was trying to
come up with points that would be perminent. This was built as screw barrel out of junk 8mm barrel. He always wanted to build a 22rf that was fired with solanoid or electric current
He never got around to it but Hi-Std did in about 1957. They were outlawed for competition
and discontinued.
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Old January 15, 2019, 01:53 PM   #18
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Quote:
If you're okay with one-time-use, thinner wire is better. It'll also work with just a 9V battery.
Nothing the OP is doing is either practical or rapid fire so a one use igniter should be fine for him.
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Old January 15, 2019, 02:21 PM   #19
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What would be the purpose in such a thing?

If merely private experimentation, the world is your oyster.
If for potential commercial sales, dead in the water.

In trying to market something like this, you ask yourself several key questions, and the most important one of those is- does it offer anything better than what's out there now?

Followed by:
How is it better?
What does it do better?
What niche does it fit?
Would a substantial market segment show enough interest to justify the start-up?
Can it be shown to have sufficient advantages over existing technology to overcome traditionalist preferences?
Could financing be arranged for something as radical as this?
Could ANY existing manufacturer be persuaded to buy your idea?
Is it worth patenting yourself?

And, finally- is it even remotely practical?

What I see here would not be commercially viable, if that's your goal.
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Old January 15, 2019, 03:01 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratshooter View Post
Nothing the OP is doing is either practical or rapid fire so a one use igniter should be fine for him.
That was my initial reaction. Trying to create a single shot firearm that doesn't jam, however it would appear the result of every shot is a case that remains lodged in that barrel.

It seems like it would be easier to just attach a battery to Thompson Contender and pretend it's electric.
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Old January 15, 2019, 03:48 PM   #21
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My dad was a electrician and just built the electric BP pistol for grins. I don't think there would be any real market for it. A lot of guns are built for grins and have no commercial value. A electric trigger in a modern rifle or pistol would take the mechanical linkage of trigger pull out of the equation. It's not that new of a technology. Most weapons in aircraft
and multiple mounted machine guns have been fired with electric since before WW2.
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Old January 15, 2019, 06:41 PM   #22
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For hunting & defensive use, electric small arms have never caught on because even when as refined as the Remington effort was, the market simply isn't interested in relying on battery power not to fail.

I doubt it ever will be, until we're beyond mechano-chemical systems & into something like more perfected lasers.
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Old January 15, 2019, 10:49 PM   #23
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Nothing like getting to the range just to learn your gun battery is dead. Anyone got a CR2? 2032? 377....

I have a crossbow scope with illuminated dots and never use the feature because I don't want to worry about dead batteries or turning another knob when trying to shoot a deer.
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Old January 16, 2019, 03:08 AM   #24
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Batteries are susceptible to cold, which, along with high ammo costs and other factors, is what killed off the Remington.


Range aside, nobody wants a battery or other electrical failure just when the buck of a lifetime crests the ridge in front of you, or when the bear decides you're in the way.
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Old January 16, 2019, 10:14 AM   #25
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For hunting & defensive use, electric small arms have never caught on because even when as refined as the Remington effort was, the market simply isn't interested in relying on battery power not to fail.
But they sell lasers by the thousands with slick advertising claiming they are a must have on any gun used for self defense!
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