|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
December 2, 2005, 07:42 PM | #1 |
Junior member
Join Date: January 18, 2005
Posts: 3,298
|
Hostage situation: What do you do?
Okay, we've all seen movies like the Untouchables where Kevin Costner and Andy Garcia are facing off with a thug who has a hostage. The thug in all situations has the hostage in front of them as a shield while holding a gun to their head peering their own head out from behind the hostage to shout demands. Garcia pops a .38 into the guys mouth before he can count to 2.
We've seen similar posters for practice at our gun ranges where a guy in sunglasses an a gun is holding a scared woman hostage. What do you do if you are confident that you can make the shot? This person is threatening to kill someone. They will probably die if you let them get away with the hostage. The hostage, in most cases (not all) it seems to me would have a better chance with the bullet zipping by their head by a few inches rather than taking a ride with a crazy thug. Or is that just hollywood? Must be somewhat real at least, otherwise why have posters at the practice range for it. What do you do? Where do you shoot to ensure that they guy won't trigger his own gun after being hit? Hit the brain? Hit the mouth, eye, between the eyes, forhead? Shut down the brain and all nerves will shut down? What say y'all to this? |
December 2, 2005, 07:53 PM | #2 |
Member
Join Date: December 2, 2005
Location: mass
Posts: 36
|
first dont let it come to this. second the brain stem top lip below the nose complete shut down
|
December 2, 2005, 07:55 PM | #3 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 7, 2005
Posts: 463
|
Quote:
Let's see... If you make the shot, you are a hero... You miss, and... |
|
December 2, 2005, 08:25 PM | #4 |
Member
Join Date: December 2, 2005
Location: mass
Posts: 36
|
Like I said don't let it come to that.
|
December 3, 2005, 12:55 AM | #5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 26, 2001
Location: western wa.
Posts: 564
|
I have a book on called "The Military and Police Sniper". It is an awesome book for learning about long range shooting. Tons of info. Being a "sniper" book, it has a chapter on terminal balistics, and talks about just this sort of situation. It says from a face on veiw, you have a T shape target. It is about a 1" horizontal line across the eyes, and about 1" verticle line from the bridge of the nose to the upper lip-bottom of nose area. In this area, they say is a brain stem hit, which will cause a "sack of potatoes" effect. It says that with a brain stem hit, the perp can already be pulling the trigger, and they will not finish it. However, if you miss the stem and just get a brain shot, while still getting an instant kill, it will cause all kinds of unpredictable musle movements, and probably result in firing the gun. I have read accounts of Hathcock in Vietnam, where with head shots the vc would wind up 30' or more from where he was when shot in the top of the head.
I just hope I never have to see or do any of that!
__________________
"There is no spoon..." |
December 3, 2005, 01:17 AM | #6 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 26, 2005
Location: Houston area
Posts: 1,823
|
head shots
The T formed by the eyes and nose will indeed put the shot into the brain stem and the cerebellum, IF we're talking a front-on shot. I sort of figured that the straight-on shot would be an almost impossible one to take...BG sees you, and will simply adjust so that hostage is between you and him or BG does not see you but is NOT in a clean line of sight without other innocents around.
The nightmare comes in trying for a side shot. THAT would be an almost-impossible shot, ISTM, because you would be shooting into the most curved part of the skull, you would be in HUGE danger of making a totally survivable shot, and you have the problem of hair which may well distort the size and shae of the head for a shot. And from the back...well, if you are absolutely certain that there is nobody else in front of the BG, maybe. But again, the curvature of the skull is there, hair will certainly camoflauge the exact curve of the skull so that it would be VERY hard to make the shot just below the base of the skull..... This is why CHL instructors tend to tell people not to take head shots, never mind the hostage situation. All that said, with the high power rifles available a REAL sniper might well be able to get him. IANARS, however, so I'd try to get a REALLY sneaky position for a good shot; or more to the point, I'd let the police hande it. Springmom
__________________
I will not be a victim home on the web: www.panagia-icons.net (my webpage) www.nousfromspring.blogspot.com (Orthodoxy) "I couldn't hear you. Stop firing the gun while you're talking!" Frank Drebin, The Naked Gun |
December 3, 2005, 01:17 AM | #7 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 26, 2005
Location: Houston area
Posts: 1,823
|
head shots
The T formed by the eyes and nose will indeed put the shot into the brain stem and the cerebellum, IF we're talking a front-on shot. I sort of figured that the straight-on shot would be an almost impossible one to take...BG sees you, and will simply adjust so that hostage is between you and him or BG does not see you but is NOT in a clean line of sight without other innocents around.
The nightmare comes in trying for a side shot. THAT would be an almost-impossible shot, ISTM, because you would be shooting into the most curved part of the skull, you would be in HUGE danger of making a totally survivable shot, and you have the problem of hair which may well distort the size and shae of the head for a shot. And from the back...well, if you are absolutely certain that there is nobody else in front of the BG, maybe. But again, the curvature of the skull is there, hair will certainly camoflauge the exact curve of the skull so that it would be VERY hard to make the shot just below the base of the skull..... This is why CHL instructors tend to tell people not to take head shots, never mind the hostage situation. All that said, with the high power rifles available a REAL sniper might well be able to get him. IANARS, however, so I'd try to get a REALLY sneaky position for a good shot; or more to the point, I'd let the police hande it. Springmom
__________________
I will not be a victim home on the web: www.panagia-icons.net (my webpage) www.nousfromspring.blogspot.com (Orthodoxy) "I couldn't hear you. Stop firing the gun while you're talking!" Frank Drebin, The Naked Gun |
December 3, 2005, 01:21 AM | #8 |
Member
Join Date: November 27, 2005
Location: Western NY
Posts: 24
|
Rush 'em while pointing the gun at them and screaming "Drop the f***ing gun, mother f***ker!!!!" It triggers the 'survival instinct' and will make them react by defending themselves rather than shooting the hostage. Sounds tough, but I have talked to guys that have 'been there, done it' and they've proven it.
The words and ideas stated above should not be construed as legal or absolute advice. They are the opinion of the writer and should be treatesd as such |
December 3, 2005, 01:35 AM | #9 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 12, 1999
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado, USA
Posts: 2,682
|
Like this? 4-7 yards ?
[ link to LARGER image ] If the choice is taking the shot, or having my family member killed or abducted, it's an easy decision...
__________________
Zak Smith . DEMIGOD LLC . THUNDER BEAST ARMS CORP . COLORADO MULTI-GUN My PM inbox full? Send e-mail instead.
Last edited by Zak Smith; December 3, 2005 at 06:01 PM. |
December 3, 2005, 08:16 AM | #10 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 7, 2005
Posts: 463
|
How many of all of you armchair quarterbacks have actually put your ACOG or AIMPOINT on a dude's head and dropped the hammer?
|
December 3, 2005, 08:55 AM | #11 |
Junior member
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Posts: 954
|
Firing at a paper head is a whole lot different than trying to get a bead on moving heads in the heat of battle. If I'm the hostage and if any of the "armchair quarterbacks " (think you Weeg) thinks they can do a head shot on the BG, please, hold off. I don't think you're good enough or cool headed enough to pull it off.
|
December 3, 2005, 06:20 PM | #12 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,064
|
Not a good situation. There are some classes that run through the scenario.
About Springmom's CHL instructor saying not to take head shots - isn't that a little out of the range of the CHL course, IIRC. Failure to stop drills in most tactical courses teach head shots. The CHL course is not to teach you tactics.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens |
December 3, 2005, 07:19 PM | #13 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 26, 2005
Location: Houston area
Posts: 1,823
|
our instructor was just giving his opinion
....on the topic, I think. His point was that people tend to see it as easy to make that shot and that it is not. It's one of those things that sometimes people assume they can do and that assumption can get somebody besides the BG killed
Springmom, who would just as soon y'all not shoot the guy if I'm the hostage either....
__________________
I will not be a victim home on the web: www.panagia-icons.net (my webpage) www.nousfromspring.blogspot.com (Orthodoxy) "I couldn't hear you. Stop firing the gun while you're talking!" Frank Drebin, The Naked Gun |
December 3, 2005, 07:27 PM | #14 |
Member
Join Date: December 2, 2005
Location: Manitoba Canada-where the old red river flows
Posts: 48
|
a little off topic, but i was wondering where i could get a book like the one woodland was mentioning. plus if i was in a situation like that, it the shot was doable, i would most likely take it, if i was proficient at shooting at the range of the perp and the hostage.
__________________
7MM REM MAG+50 shells in 45 mins=ouch |
December 3, 2005, 09:16 PM | #15 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 28, 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,231
|
fine motor skills are going to go to hell in a handbasket when stressed for most folks who are not trained to handle situations like that. if you have had hours of training in a situations like those...your decison
__________________
Have a nice day at the range NRA Life Member |
December 3, 2005, 09:59 PM | #16 |
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: March 24, 2005
Location: Steubenville, OH
Posts: 4,446
|
Nightmare situation, no matter how you look at it. Now, let me throw out this question that makes it an even worse nightmare: BG says drop your gun or I kill her (him). What would you do?
__________________
TFL Members are ambassadors to the world for firearm owners. What kind of ambassador does your post make you? I train in earnest, to do the things that I pray in earnest, I'll never have to do. --Capt. Charlie |
December 3, 2005, 10:09 PM | #17 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 2, 2005
Location: tennessee
Posts: 686
|
This is an easy one to answer shoot the hostage in the leg. It worked in the movie speed.
__________________
Scan and Breathe Scan and Breathe Stupidity should hurt |
December 3, 2005, 11:32 PM | #18 |
Member
Join Date: November 2, 2005
Posts: 34
|
I believe the hostage should fake a heart attack or fainting spell and just go limp dropping like the aforementioned sack of poatoes. I think this would fluster the BG who would be left standing unprotected. He might take a shot at the hostage but I think he would be to puzzled and worried about being exposed. what do you all think?
By the way, I would not like to be the one to volunteer to prove this theory one way or the other. Steve |
December 4, 2005, 12:09 AM | #19 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 31, 2005
Posts: 1,231
|
Quote:
|
|
December 4, 2005, 12:28 AM | #20 | |||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,717
|
eng2 said,
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
First, it is amazing that if you shoot the top lip below the nose that you will hit the brain stem and cause a complete shutdown and that you can also shoot the T between the eyes and nose and either get a brain, cerebellum, or brain stem hit. Y'all have oversimplified a difficult shot and have done so by claiming specific impact locations will cause specific CNS destruction. Check the 2-D graphic below. This graphic pertains only to relative vertical shot angles as seen from the side and does not account for horizontal angles. Note that the same vertical angle problems also exist for horizontal angles as well. Depending on the angle, shots to the nose and lower orbits most definitely can miss the brain, brain stem, and spinal cord. This shots are not an assured success as noted above. There are folks who have attempted suicide by placing a gun in their mouths and firing. With the wrong angles, the shots completely miss vital structures and exit the back of the neck. This leads into the aspect of shot placement. All that you can do as a shooter is to land rounds on the exterior of the bad guy. Ideally, you will be aiming at a specific area in hopes of damaging key organs below the impact. However, once a round is fired and hits the appropriate spot, there is no control on where the round will travel. It may be deflected from the hoped-for internal vital structure. As the head is a fairly small target that tends to move around quite a bit, trying to aim a shot at the exterior of the person in hopes of hitting the brain, stem, and cerebellum will be tough. Of the three, the brain itself would be the easiest to hit as it is the largest. springmom said, Quote:
As for the side of the skull, and the back apparently, just how would you be shooting the most curved part s of the skull? Just curious, could you please rank the parts of the skull in order of amount of curvature? Contrary to your statement, the side of the skull is flatter than many other areas. No parts are completely flat, of course, but the area of the temporal is about as close as you can get. Quote:
Glenn E. Meyer said, Quote:
Capt Charlie asked, Quote:
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange Last edited by Double Naught Spy; October 8, 2008 at 05:20 PM. |
|||||||
December 4, 2005, 12:41 AM | #21 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 26, 2005
Location: Houston area
Posts: 1,823
|
side shots....what I meant
Quote:
There was some discussion regarding the brain stem. I was following up on that and saying that if you were trying to shoot THAT PART of the brain, from the side it would be extremely difficult. My point was that this is a tough shot to make, and as somebody noted, the extreme stress of the situation would likely blow my fine motor skills entirely. I myself would not be very confident in trying for a head shot. OTOH, I tend to shoot a bit high if I do miss my bullseye, so I might end up making one anyway..... As for ranking curvature, I was therefore thinking about the rear of the skull as it curves outward from the neck and up. That's the "curviest" part; the top and sides are indeed more angled, or, in the case of the sides, nearly flat on some folks. My artwork always includes at least the head and shoulders of the subject, and I am aware of its architecture As I said, though, I was thinking about the previous comments regarding the brain stem and trying to make that shot. I don't think I'm that competent or cool under stress! Springmom
__________________
I will not be a victim home on the web: www.panagia-icons.net (my webpage) www.nousfromspring.blogspot.com (Orthodoxy) "I couldn't hear you. Stop firing the gun while you're talking!" Frank Drebin, The Naked Gun |
|
December 4, 2005, 06:13 PM | #22 |
Member
Join Date: December 2, 2005
Location: mass
Posts: 36
|
my thought in the beginning was to not let it come to that. but should it come to that yes I would take the shot. leaving is just going to get you shot in the back. as far as a Brain stem shot its a good shot the BG is going to be very distracted at the least. I've been shot. your first thought isn't to shoot back. it's what just happened, then oh boy I need an ambulance. then shoot back. enough time for the hostage to move. leaving them there is not a good idea if a hostage has been taken things have gone very wrong the BG is most likely going to want to flee with out baggage to slow them down. a second thought is to keep them distracted until more witnesses come maybe a better out come can be found that way.
|
December 4, 2005, 06:20 PM | #23 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 7, 2005
Posts: 463
|
|
December 4, 2005, 09:57 PM | #24 |
Member
Join Date: November 27, 2005
Location: Western NY
Posts: 24
|
Quote: "How many of all of you armchair quarterbacks have actually put your ACOG or AIMPOINT on a dude's head and dropped the hammer?"
I would think that the situation described above would not be considered a 'badge of honor' or an accomplishment. Although if it were done, I would believe that it would have been the only option available. The closest I have come in training has been to put two rounds of simunitions into the facemask of the trainer, from 10 yards(maybe 8) with him retreating and me advancing while yelling all sorts of intimidating stuff. yes, we were prepared for this tactic, and it still scared the crap out of him. In real life, no shooting, but the BG did respond fast enough to not get hurt. This would be the best ending possible. BTW...MIkeyboy: I like the attitude. Loved one+ hostage taker=no hold barred. |
December 5, 2005, 07:31 PM | #25 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 18, 2004
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 2,568
|
This is a situation I personally feel that everyone should make some preparations for. It is more likely to happen just because you are a gun owner, . . . non gunners will just watch their loved one being spirited away.
My preconceived plan #1 is to first show the BG that I will do everything possible to delay, slow, drag out, and defeat his plan to take my loved one as a hostage. Things like shoot out the tires on the "getaway" vehicle if it is close. I'll also put a couple of rounds over his head just to let him know that I'm not afraid to shoot him or at him (you would be amazed how many folks just fold up when they hear lead zinging around their head). I will continue to circle him/her in the direction of their strong side in the hope that an opening comes. Depending on which weapon I have, I also just may sizzle one close to his head hoping he might duck into it, . . . and remind him that I just missed him that time, . . . gonna get him with the next one. I will not pass up the shot Zak Smith has on the BG's legs and feet, . . . he ain't going anywhere with two shot up legs and feet. I will be screaming at him all along, . . . demeaning, discouraging, dissing, abusing, degrading epithets about him, his parents, his children, anything to burn his gizzard at me. I want him to come after me, . . . one on one, . . . he is dead meat, . . . or at least I have given it my best. In this scenario, . . . the police should be on their way, . . . all I have to do is keep the scene contained while they get here. The main key is to take control, . . . let the bg know you are in control, . . . and take the first real good opportunity you get. You'll get one if you keep him guessing and un-nerved. Anyway, . . . that is plan # 1, . . . will formulate # 2 as needed. May God bless, Dwight
__________________
www.dwightsgunleather.com If you can breathe, . . . thank God! If you can read, . . . thank a teacher! If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran! |
|
|