what do you have to do to be able to purchase fully auto guns leggaly?

Gunz387 · August 6, 1999, 11:38 PM

I am the average smo joe gun collecter that wants to be able to have fully auto weapons. what do I have to go through to be able to purchase them leggaly? Thanks for your time.

Reed

**4V50 Gary** · August 7, 1999, 04:51 AM

Easy and legal route is to find a Class III dealer. (S)he can walk you through the state and federal paperwork.

Anybody want to give more specifics?

------------------
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt

fal308 · August 7, 1999, 06:56 AM

Depends upon where you live also. Several states in USA don't allow FA period. Don't know if any states allow C&R that don't allow FA though.

Gunz387 · August 7, 1999, 12:14 PM

I live in PA does anyone know if it is leggal to have FA here? thanks

tankertom · August 7, 1999, 02:19 PM

Pennsylvania is a machine gun friendly state.

Go to www.subguns.com and look at the recommended dealers list. Talk to a dealer in your area.

You may also want to go to the machine gun message board and ask your question.

Tom

David Schmidbauer · August 7, 1999, 10:38 PM

Gunz387

OK seeing PA is FA frendley, here are the requirements...

Be over 21, a US Citizen, No Felonies, or other wise precluded from owning a firearms.

Find a dealer. Pick out a gun. Probably put down a deposit (may or may not be refundable). Get the ATF Form 4 from the dealer (2 copies). This Form lists the Make, model, caliber, serial # of the arm you are planning to purchase.

Get 2 passport photos and afix them to the form. Get 2 sets of finger print card done up (perferably by a local LE agency).

Now comes the fun part. Take all the above to your Chief Law Enforcement Official and have him sign off on the Form 4 attesting that "I have no information indicating that the transferee will use the firarm or device descrbed on this application for other than lawful purposes. I have no information that the receipt and/or possession of the firearm described in item 4 of this form would place the transferee in violation of State or local law).

Once that is signed off on, the two forms are then sent to the ATF along with a check/money order for $200.

Some time later, could be 6 weeks to 6 months the form hopefully will be returned with a Approval Stamp (yep... you just paid $200 for a Stamp).

You can now take possession of your FA.

Very easy.

------------------
Schmit, GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"

James K · August 7, 1999, 11:29 PM

Just a reminder.

Under Federal law, if the seller is an individual (not dealer) and resides in your state, you can buy directly without going through a dealer and save $200. You still need the BATF form and CLEO signature.

State law may not allow this, but I think PA does.

Jim

David Schmidbauer · August 8, 1999, 09:01 AM

Jim

The $200 is a Federal Transfer & Registration fee/tax.

Please provide reference to which Federal Law you speek of!

The following is taken out of ATF Publication 5300.4. (Federal Reference in italics)

Exemptions for Transfer Tax of the NFA...

1 - Transfer & registration btwn special occupational tax payers (dealers)(Special Occupational Tax payers pay $500 per year for the Licence)
2 - Tax exempt making of a firearm on behalf of the federal or state agency. (Manufacturer)
3 - Transfer and registration of an unservicable firearm which is being transferred as a curio or ornament. (the firearm don't work)
4 - Transfer of firearm to lawful heir. (a relative has to die)
(26 USC 5851, 27 CFR 179.69, 179.70, 179.88, 179.89, 179.90 and 179.91

A private citizen who owns an NFA which is not registered to him is subject to the following - Fine not more than $250,000 and imprisonment of not more then 10 years. Additionally, any vessel, vehicle, aircraft used to transport, conceal or possess an unregistered NFA firarm is subject to seizure and forfeiture, as is the weapon itself. (I wouldn't doubt this also includes property (house/land) by now)
49 USC 781-788, 26 USC 5861, 26 USC 5872

You can buy a NFA item from an individual without going through a Dealer but you are still required to complete ATF Form 4 (except exemptions listed above in which there are other forms to fill out) and pay the $200 Transfer/Registration fee.

------------------
Schmit, GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"

[This message has been edited by David Schmidbauer (edited August 08, 1999).]

James K · August 8, 1999, 11:11 AM

David,

Apology for poor phrasing. Yes, a transfer from individual to individual absolutely requires payment of the $200 tax. I meant the situation where X has a gun for sale and Y wants to buy it. They are both in the same state. If X sells to a dealer, that is $200. Then the dealer sells to Y with another $200 plus the dealer markup. But if X sells directly to Y, the tax is only $200 (one transfer) and the dealer markup/fee is saved as well.

Sorry for any confusion caused by my wording.

Jim

David Schmidbauer · August 8, 1999, 02:08 PM

> But if X sells directly to Y, the tax is only $200 (one transfer) and the dealer markup/fee is saved as well.<

Thanks for clearing that up...you had me scared.

Yep.. going through a Dealer is not required if seller/buyer are in the same state. That is a much better way to transfer IMO (dealers do tend to mark things up... go figure).

------------------
Schmit, GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"

[This message has been edited by David Schmidbauer (edited August 08, 1999).]

James K · August 8, 1999, 06:07 PM

Whether you call it a markup or a dealer fee for handling the paperwork, it gets pretty salty at times. Still, a dealer can help a lot, especially in getting an idea of CLEO reaction.

Some CLEOs think they are guaranteeing angelic behavior on the part of the applicant forever; they are merely stating that there is no local law which would be broken by approval.

Actually, this covers BATF's fanny, in case they don't know about some local law that passed last week. If something does go haywire, they don't want to read that "BATF approved the sale in spite of the new Dogpatch Village law..."

Jim

**4V50 Gary** · August 8, 1999, 08:25 PM

X, Y? OK you guys. This is a gun forum and not High School Algebra.

------------------
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt

August 6, 1999, 11:38 PM	#1
Gunz387 Member Join Date: August 5, 1999 Posts: 43	I am the average smo joe gun collecter that wants to be able to have fully auto weapons. what do I have to go through to be able to purchase them leggaly? Thanks for your time. Reed

August 7, 1999, 04:51 AM	#2
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,832	Easy and legal route is to find a Class III dealer. (S)he can walk you through the state and federal paperwork. Anybody want to give more specifics? ------------------ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt

August 7, 1999, 06:56 AM	#3
fal308 Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,992	Depends upon where you live also. Several states in USA don't allow FA period. Don't know if any states allow C&R that don't allow FA though.

August 7, 1999, 12:14 PM	#4
Gunz387 Member Join Date: August 5, 1999 Posts: 43	I live in PA does anyone know if it is leggal to have FA here? thanks

August 7, 1999, 02:19 PM	#5
tankertom Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 1998 Location: Northern Virginia, USA Posts: 199	Pennsylvania is a machine gun friendly state. Go to www.subguns.com and look at the recommended dealers list. Talk to a dealer in your area. You may also want to go to the machine gun message board and ask your question. Tom

August 7, 1999, 10:38 PM	#6
David Schmidbauer Retired Screen Name Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 396	Gunz387 OK seeing PA is FA frendley, here are the requirements... Be over 21, a US Citizen, No Felonies, or other wise precluded from owning a firearms. Find a dealer. Pick out a gun. Probably put down a deposit (may or may not be refundable). Get the ATF Form 4 from the dealer (2 copies). This Form lists the Make, model, caliber, serial # of the arm you are planning to purchase. Get 2 passport photos and afix them to the form. Get 2 sets of finger print card done up (perferably by a local LE agency). Now comes the fun part. Take all the above to your Chief Law Enforcement Official and have him sign off on the Form 4 attesting that "I have no information indicating that the transferee will use the firarm or device descrbed on this application for other than lawful purposes. I have no information that the receipt and/or possession of the firearm described in item 4 of this form would place the transferee in violation of State or local law). Once that is signed off on, the two forms are then sent to the ATF along with a check/money order for $200. Some time later, could be 6 weeks to 6 months the form hopefully will be returned with a Approval Stamp (yep... you just paid $200 for a Stamp). You can now take possession of your FA. Very easy. ------------------ Schmit, GySgt, USMC(Ret) NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS "Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"

August 7, 1999, 11:29 PM	#7
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Just a reminder. Under Federal law, if the seller is an individual (not dealer) and resides in your state, you can buy directly without going through a dealer and save $200. You still need the BATF form and CLEO signature. State law may not allow this, but I think PA does. Jim

August 8, 1999, 09:01 AM	#8
David Schmidbauer Retired Screen Name Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 396	Jim The $200 is a Federal Transfer & Registration fee/tax. Please provide reference to which Federal Law you speek of! The following is taken out of ATF Publication 5300.4. (Federal Reference in italics) Exemptions for Transfer Tax of the NFA... 1 - Transfer & registration btwn special occupational tax payers (dealers)(Special Occupational Tax payers pay $500 per year for the Licence) 2 - Tax exempt making of a firearm on behalf of the federal or state agency. (Manufacturer) 3 - Transfer and registration of an unservicable firearm which is being transferred as a curio or ornament. (the firearm don't work) 4 - Transfer of firearm to lawful heir. (a relative has to die) (26 USC 5851, 27 CFR 179.69, 179.70, 179.88, 179.89, 179.90 and 179.91 A private citizen who owns an NFA which is not registered to him is subject to the following - Fine not more than $250,000 and imprisonment of not more then 10 years. Additionally, any vessel, vehicle, aircraft used to transport, conceal or possess an unregistered NFA firarm is subject to seizure and forfeiture, as is the weapon itself. (I wouldn't doubt this also includes property (house/land) by now) 49 USC 781-788, 26 USC 5861, 26 USC 5872 You can buy a NFA item from an individual without going through a Dealer but you are still required to complete ATF Form 4 (except exemptions listed above in which there are other forms to fill out) and pay the $200 Transfer/Registration fee. ------------------ Schmit, GySgt, USMC(Ret) NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS "Si vis Pacem Para Bellum" [This message has been edited by David Schmidbauer (edited August 08, 1999).]

August 8, 1999, 11:11 AM	#9
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	David, Apology for poor phrasing. Yes, a transfer from individual to individual absolutely requires payment of the $200 tax. I meant the situation where X has a gun for sale and Y wants to buy it. They are both in the same state. If X sells to a dealer, that is $200. Then the dealer sells to Y with another $200 plus the dealer markup. But if X sells directly to Y, the tax is only $200 (one transfer) and the dealer markup/fee is saved as well. Sorry for any confusion caused by my wording. Jim

August 8, 1999, 02:08 PM	#10
David Schmidbauer Retired Screen Name Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 396	> But if X sells directly to Y, the tax is only $200 (one transfer) and the dealer markup/fee is saved as well.< Thanks for clearing that up...you had me scared. Yep.. going through a Dealer is not required if seller/buyer are in the same state. That is a much better way to transfer IMO (dealers do tend to mark things up... go figure). ------------------ Schmit, GySgt, USMC(Ret) NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS "Si vis Pacem Para Bellum" [This message has been edited by David Schmidbauer (edited August 08, 1999).]

August 8, 1999, 06:07 PM	#11
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Whether you call it a markup or a dealer fee for handling the paperwork, it gets pretty salty at times. Still, a dealer can help a lot, especially in getting an idea of CLEO reaction. Some CLEOs think they are guaranteeing angelic behavior on the part of the applicant forever; they are merely stating that there is no local law which would be broken by approval. Actually, this covers BATF's fanny, in case they don't know about some local law that passed last week. If something does go haywire, they don't want to read that "BATF approved the sale in spite of the new Dogpatch Village law..." Jim

August 8, 1999, 08:25 PM	#12
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,832	X, Y? OK you guys. This is a gun forum and not High School Algebra. ------------------ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt