357 Magnum, Help with "Mid-Power" reloads.

[nitro-express]

I'd like to reload some 357 Mag into that "Middle" area, with pressure 1/2 way between a 38 Spl (+P) and 357 Mag.

I have a 2nd Gen NF in 357 Mag and I've been trying to load cast to that middle area with little success. I'm new to casting, have done a bunch of inter-web-searching, have a few molds, have tried a few combos, and have been mostly met with "Accurate enough but leading like crazy" or "Clean shooting but not very accurate."

For molds I have a RCBS 35-150-SWC, a Lyman 358477 and a Lyman 358156. I also have Speer 158 SWC-HP.

For alloy I have been trying a 50/50 mixture of Lino/Lead or homemade #2 from COWW.

For powder I have 231, 700X, Red Dot, Green Dot, HS-6, Trap 100, WW571, Universal and 2400. I also have a bit of 4756, but it didn't work too well for me, very erratic.

I mostly use CCI 550 primers.

Throats approach 359 and the groove slugs at 355.

I have dies to size 359, 3575, and 356. For lube I have Lyman Super-Moly , Lyman Orange-Magic and Micro-Lube

As I approach top loads, my knuckle gets a good rap. My goal is to get just under the knuckle rap for my reloads.

If you have a favorite mid power load you'd like to share, I'd appreciate it.

[ThomasT]

My favorite mid range load is 6.6grs of unique with standard, not magnum primers and a hardcast 158swc in a 357 case. I have been using that load for two decades and really like it. I suspect your magnum primers may be part of the leading problem.

[Risasi]

This is more like a 38/44 load. I like this because it gives decent velocity in short barrels, but it's not a barn burner, so I can shoot a decent amount for practice too.

Brass: .357 Mag, trimmed to 1.280"
Primer: CCI-550 SPM
Powder: HS-6, 8.0gr
Med-Heavy roll crimp.

I've used this load under Rim Rock 170gr Keith bullets, 158gr LSWC/LSWC-HP and 158gr Hornady XTP. This is also the starting charge on Hodgdon's website for the 158gr XTP. 28,000CUP. Max is 9.5gr.

Work up for accuracy.

Chrony results of this load (rounded to nearest 10) under a 158gr LSWC;
3" SP101 - HI: 1070fps, LO: 1010fps, AVG: 1020fps, ES: 60, SD: 30fps

Keith bullet was very similar. I haven't chrono'ed the 158gr XTP, but I'm guessing it's right around 1000fps avg. I need to test in my 4" GP100 too, but I'm guessing it's going to be around 1100FPS.
----

For the Keith bullet, since it's so long, I do trim back some designated brass to 1.25"...or just use empty Hornady Critical Defense nickel cases. They are shorter anyway, and I hate to just throw them away. Plus, I prefer brass for std loads, so these 357 Keith loads are kind of "color coded" by default.

Another favorite I have with this same powder and primer combo is using a 38Spl case and downloading to right around 7.0gr of HS-6 with a LSWC. That's over book load though, so start low. The problem was I didn't get this load to shoot clean until right around 6.0gr of HS-6. This powder seems to need some pressure behind it. Same thing with the magnum primer. SD and ES numbers are more consistent, and at lower pressure charges it burns cleaner than with the non-magnum primer.

[ammo.crafter]

Do you know or have a way to measure your cast bullets BHN?

[Risasi]

Do you know or have a way to measure your cast bullets BHN?

There are multiple methods;

- The "fingernail" test. (Pretty subjective, I'm sure not accurate.)

- Some guys use a bunch of pencils, like you'd find in a craft store. Cast Boolit - Pencil BHN Test: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...l=1#post813454

- Then there are specific tools like this: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/731...ss-testing-kit
Basically it applies a specific amount of pressure, you then measure the divot it left.

EDIT: Okay, I added a link to some of the gunloads guys talking about the pencil test. They are BIG into lead bullets.
On top of bullet hardness and finding the right hardness to match pressure range, bullet to bore fit matters, perhaps more that hardness. Guys have written novels on the subject.
One can get pretty deep into cleaning up a bore to make it more conducive to shoot lead rather than copper. I'm a bit agnostic. Lead appeals to me on the basis of cheapness and consistent reliability in knowing what it will do. (Penetration vs jacketed expansion argument). But I've had hit and miss luck with lead. I just try to keep notes on what lead bullet from which vendor tends to shoot best in my revolvers without leading up the barrel too much. Then those are the ones I try to keep stocked. For everything else there is the Hornady XTP.

[T. O'Heir]

What you want are just mid range, cast, 158 .357 loads. Pressures don't make much difference, as the mid range cast loads are roughly MAX load .38 +P pressures. Well within cast .357 pressure ranges.
Oh and CUP and PSI are nothing alike and cannot be mathematically converted. So when you read pressures which one is used, matters. You'll be fine if you follow your manual religiously.
"...my knuckle gets a good rap..." Change grips.
"...not magnum primers..." Good. Magnum primers have nothing to do with the cartridge they're in. They're about the powder used, only.

[Bob Wright]

One of my pet .357 Magnum loads has been with a 158 gr. commercial cast SWC and 9.5 grs. of Hodgdon's HS-6 with Remington No. 1 1/2 primers.

Velocity as I recall is around 1150 ~1200 fps.

Bob Wright

[nitro-express]

I have a LEE tester.

My commercial 125's are 14, the 150 SWC that I have are 17.

I've cast some 11, which is my softest alloy, and up to 17, my hardest. I also heat treated some to 30.

And thanks for the real life loads, I'll try some in the coming weeks.

Nitro

[Hammerhead]

I'm surprised 4756 didn't work well. 4756 is my favorite for those in between loads. It works best with magnum primers. Since it's become discontinued I've switched to HS-6. 8.4 grains of HS-6 in magnum brass, magnum primer (a must with HS-6 IMO) and any 158 grain bullet is my new standard 'magnum-light' load. Takes the edge off the blast and recoil, but still a powerful round.

Can't help you with casting.

[Hammerhead]

Looking at my 4756 data with 158 grain bullets, 6.0 with a standard primer gave erratic speeds and incomplete burn, 6.5 with a magnum primer was the sweet spot, clean and consistent, 6.8 flattened the WSPM primers.

[nitro-express]

I do like the term "Magnum Light", excellent moniker for the loads I want to shoot.

Thanks for all the replies, very helpful.

[Real Gun]

Throats approach 359 and the groove slugs at 355.

I believe that might require soft lead to fill (bump up then down) the variance. Could be a mess. Those throats are big.

I use 125 gr bullets for my small gun loads and 5.1-5.3 gr SR-4756, which I have in good supply, considering the news of it being discontinued with some other IMR products.

My full size gun load is 158 gr hard cast and 10.0 gr HS-6 with Mag primers.

[nitro-express]

I contacted Hodgdon and this is the reply I received:

" Thank you for your interest in IMR. Unfortunately all the SR powders including 4756 was discontinued the end of 2014. We will be introducing a new Winchester powder called 572 that will be similar as 4756 in 12, 20,and 28 ga field and target loads. Winchester 572 will be introduced in March and on the market soon after.

We shipped more IMR rifle powders to Canada last year than anytime in our history. IMR will be widely available this year also.

We can't help you on Alliant powder supply as we have no plans on adding that brand.

Best Regards
Chris Hodgdon
IMR Powder Co "

[Real Gun]

The real distinction or attraction of SR4756 for me is its relatively high VMD and resulting visibility in a 357 size case. Hopefully, this new powder will maintain the volume of SR4756 along with other characteristics.

[bamaranger]

I've had a bit of trouble with leading in the .357, but attribute it to poor/soft bullets. For .357 mid range, I load a 158 gr LSWC over 6.0 grs Unique and the result is 1000 fps from my 4-5/8" Ruger B-hawk. That combo yields enough bang and punch to satisfy as a field GP round, but not abusive like some full house mag stuff can be.

My experience with magnum primers indicates that they can/do indeed boost pressures a degree, and thus velocity I'd think as well. Such authorities as Elmer Keith and Ross Seyfried though so too, and put it in print to boot. I think that condition can be aggrevated when using near max loads of relatively fast powders, say up to the burn rate of Unique. Closest thing to a reloading disaster I've had was a max load of 8.0 gr of Unique and a 180 gr slug in the 10mm. With "Standard" primes, the load was absolutely fine. But I switched to primers marked "for Standard or Magnum loads" and the results were near catastrophy. The result was a completely blown case, and a half dozen or so prior from the string that exhibited serious case head support issues. The Glock 20 was not damaged. The rule of reducing when changing components is best followed.

[Salmoneye]

Bought a .357 Lee die set back in the day...All in one deal, complete with shell holder, and .7cc powder dipper...

It also came with a 'load data' insert that aligned with the dipper...Various powder/bullet combinations...

At the time, I happened to have a bit of Red Dot...One of the loads was 5gr Red Dot and a 158gr bullet...

For 3+ decades or so, that has been my go-to mid-range .357 load...

[Real Gun]

Bought a .357 Lee die set back in the day...All in one deal, complete with shell holder, and .7cc powder dipper...

It also came with a 'load data' insert that aligned with the dipper...Various powder/bullet combinations...

At the time, I happened to have a bit of Red Dot...One of the loads was 5gr Red Dot and a 158gr bullet...

For 3+ decades or so, that has been my go-to mid-range .357 load...

Thanks for sharing that. However, when I looked it up and saw the velocity of the 5.5 max at 1215 fps for 158 LSWC, I concluded that it is very much what I would call a LOW range load for 357. Red Dot is quite fast burning as powders go, so it fits right in with other easier-shooting, range fodder loads for this caliber. To be a pretender for 357 Magnum rating, it has to be at least 1000 fps in my view, pressure level to go with that, and it seems to fall right in that position.

[rclark]

Under ~158g SWC style bullet, 5.0g of Red Dot (1019fps), 5.5 Green Dot (1071fps), and 6.0g of Universal | Unique | 20/28 (~1070fps). All with standard CCI-500 primers. 13.5g of 2400 (1263fps) for a bit warmer load with standard CCI-500 primers is another favorite. None are knuckle busting loads. Currently using the Red Dot load as my goto load. Remember powder dictates what primer you use, not the cartridge. If using H110/296 or 4227, then I'd use a magnum primer.

[Real Gun]

None are knuckle busting loads.

Probably not, but it would depend as well on the size and weight of the gun.

[rclark]

Of course, 12oz vs 40oz guns there is going to be a difference... But I am thinking Ruger SA revolvers here both medium and large frame and Colt SAA (or clone) revolvers. You can always go down to 600fps for light loads and shoot 110g bullets if you wish. Reloading you have all the options in the world to meet your needs. All what you are comfortable with . personally I never found .357 that 'punishing' even with hot loads in my Rugers... Other than the noise/blast issue.

[LAH]

Not sure how it will work for you but I've had very good results with the Lyman 358429 & 5.5 grains of Win 231.

[nitro-express]

I got myself a Stainless (not new) Vaquero in 44 Mag and that has kept me busy. I had a heck of a time trying to find a load for it, one that wouldn't lead. I finally settled on a couple of loads that work nice, no leading to speak of and decently accurate, minute of cowboy for sure. The 2 bullets that work for me are a Lyman 429434 GC and a 429421. I can cast the -434 as soft as 11 before leading become an issue, I use 11.3 gr of WW 571 for it. That's also about as low as I can go before it starts to give me grief. It chronos at a hair under 1000 fps, about where I want to be. I cast the "Keith" @ app 15 and load it with 12.+ gr of WW 571 for about the same 1000 fps. I don't like to load this as it is long, jambs up my '92.

So i was thinking, perhaps I could use the same approach on the 357. So I cast up some 358156 bullets, using BHN 14, and holding the sprue to the spout to get as big a bullet as possible. I was able to size and lube with a 359. I loaded them behind 9 gr of WW 571, and it works very well. Not sure what it chronos but it sounds and feels good. Most importantly, no leading.

Thank you Skeeter. And I quote; "My favorite answer to the .357 leading bugaboo has been the use of Lyman's 358156 gascheck bullets, a Ray Thompson design. Properly cast, sized, and lubricated, this semiwadcutter slug approximates the shape of the Phil Sharpe original and sports a copper-shielded base that resists the hot gasses of the magnum powder charges. It is an exceptionally clean-shooting, accurate bullet for both light and heavily stoked .357 cartridges."

[sundog]

My all time favorite mid-range load has been 358156 (felix lubed and checked sized to .359) over 10.0/AA#7. I'm currently messin' around with the Lee TL158SWC, powder coated, sized .359 thru a Lee push thru with the same powder and charge. Should feed a Rossi 92 without a hitch - haven't tried it yet. Good accuracy in handguns tested so far.

[rodfac]

Skeeter Skelton's old working load (13.5 gr of 2400 with Lyman's 358156 gc bullet) generates 1150+ fps in my guns. 13.0 is just as accurate if that's too much recoil for you...

BTW: I size mine to 0.359" and cast them from Wheel Weights using the old NRA 50-50 lube formula...no leading and great (1.5" gps at 25 yds with good bullets from my Model 19 Smith). With throats at 0.359" and a groove dia. of 0.355", you may have your work cut out for you. I'd suggest sizing to 0.359" as you are, and playing with the alloy.

That gas check will make up for some of the sizing problem, and at 0.359' through the sizing die, I doubt you'll get leading to any extent. In my use, I seldom get the same size with the check as I do with the main, bore riding part of the bullet...the gas check seems to 'bounce back' up to a thousandth or so. If you're sizing to 0.359", I'd expect to see the check emerging at 0.360" unless you anneal it prior to seating. A good source of info on checks, their use and characteristics, are the guys over at Cast Boolit's. Best of luck, and try Skeeter's load, it's worked in every .357 I've worked with. Rod