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Old November 27, 2019, 08:38 AM   #101
Hal
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How about when you compare it to a 3" or 4" revolver? I actually prefer a 357 Sig, lets cherry pick rounds shall we. Carry-able? I have been carrying pistols for 40 years, OK......
3" maybe - but - who carries a 4" revolver these day?


I think you continue to miss my point 100% - so - I'm out of this.
I've beat this dead horse too often.
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Old November 27, 2019, 08:41 AM   #102
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3" maybe - but - who carries a 4" revolver these day?

.


I do
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Old November 27, 2019, 04:21 PM   #103
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FBI Shootout: Yes, it was marksmanship plus bad preparation. We had an informal match today. Afterwards at 25yards we shot our carry handguns. I had my G23 and some Winchester 180gr. FMJ cartridges. I proceeded to fire forty rounds fast. Of the forty rounds three out were out in the seven ring on the B27. That means 37 were inside the eight ring. This is really the first time I have shot the gun since installation of OEM night sights. Yes, I can get some hits at 25 yards. I'm not sure this was possible, for me, an average shot, with a J sized S&W revolver. With the G23, problems needing extra rounds would have been solved by carrying a loaded G22 magazine. Awkward but entirely possible to reloaded the G23 with one hand.

Added: When I finished with the G23 went to another range at the club to test some 357 loads in my my 19 and 28. Right on the horsepower of a 44 Magnum. It
was a good day to get in some shooting. Happy Turkey Day-be safe.
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Old November 28, 2019, 04:21 AM   #104
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StihlKicking - While I applaud you for that - you are a rapidly dying breed.
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Old November 28, 2019, 05:39 AM   #105
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Cloud Cuckoo Land

What you are telling me is that to carry a high capacity auto is to be over gunned, Right? I don't need more than five shots. Most confrontations are at very close range. Right. How do you know. These miscreants are keen judges of weakness. They can travel in groups of four. These people are known to ride in SUV's very well armed. If I show my Chief Special these monsters will run in fear. Ha. This speculation is from cloud cuckoo land. In difficult times there is no such things as too big a caliber or too much ammo. I didn't make that last on up. Also another old time saying is that a handgun is used to fight your way to a rifle or shotgun. I was lectured by a gun store commando how Glock's were not concealable. Right? Wrong! I was carrying a G26 as he spoke. This was the guy who low rated HK's because the paddle magazine release would bump into the store counter and drop the magazine. You can get really good advice in a gun store. For that matter a gun rag is really a good place to get information.

Added: My G23.4 has a 4.2 inch barrel. Stock as a doorknob.
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Old November 28, 2019, 06:41 AM   #106
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So why practice at 25yds? I'll shoot my DA's there and farther but I don't carry them for protection. Farthest I shoot my auto loader's is about 15 paces and I don't aim. Found aiming them make's reaction time pretty darn slow. I point and shoot them now. Hitting a watermelon at 15 pace's just pointing got to be awful easy. I found relying on sight's I didn't shoot auto loader's any better and pointing doesn't waste time trying to aim. But shooting at 25yds, are you really under attack at that distance? I don't know but if the bad guy gives that much warning he's a fool. Or then again maybe he just want's to give you a chance to use your sight's. I don't know that I could hit a watermelon at 25yds just pointing!
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Old November 28, 2019, 07:38 AM   #107
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Good point Don. 3 to 7 yards is more realistic for the majority of us, although training at longer range is always good as it improves your skill level.
Under 3 yards / speed training is underrated. Under 3 yards is realistic Car jacking, ATM, drugged up thug & mugger range.
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Old November 28, 2019, 07:53 AM   #108
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Five aimed shots at 25 yards with 626 Smith loaded with Skeeter Skelton 44 Special loads. How about the same with a Model 19 with +P 38 Special loads. Still carry my G23. Coming up with 3 yard confrontations lacks thoughtful meditation. At 3 yards individual a can disembowel you with a Havalon knife before you can unholster your handgun. Work smart. Stay out of high crime areas and be wary of where you are at all the time. I have never heard of anybody being menaced by a watermelon.
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Old November 28, 2019, 07:54 AM   #109
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So why practice at 25yds? I'll shoot my DA's there and farther but I don't carry them for protection. Farthest I shoot my auto loader's is about 15 paces and I don't aim. Found aiming them make's reaction time pretty darn slow. I point and shoot them now. Hitting a watermelon at 15 pace's just pointing got to be awful easy. I found relying on sight's I didn't shoot auto loader's any better and pointing doesn't waste time trying to aim. But shooting at 25yds, are you really under attack at that distance? I don't know but if the bad guy gives that much warning he's a fool. Or then again maybe he just want's to give you a chance to use your sight's. I don't know that I could hit a watermelon at 25yds just pointing!

IMO, practicing at 25 yards with an Airweight or Airlight J Frame forces me to concentrate on the fundamentals such as sight picture and trigger control. Getting those things right at 25 yards makes me better and faster at closer ranges. I also shoot with a timer both up close and at distances out to 25 yards. I use my sights up close unless it's a contact or retention situation.
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Old November 28, 2019, 08:17 AM   #110
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"Coming up with 3 yard confrontations lacks thoughtful meditation". (JG Terry)

It must be nice to live in a 25 yard bubble and never come within 3 yards of other people.

Most of us, even if avoiding bad, high crime areas, still come within 3 yards of other people in day to day society, whether at the gas station, Walmart parking lot, shopping center, working or walking down the street. It's called reality. Most physical attacks / robbery attempts, etc. don't begin at 25 yards. It's up close, fast and ugly, as predators like to pounce where and when we are most vulnerable.

In my opinion, Don's point shooting at watermelons, at close range is FAR more realistic self defense training than what JG Terry opening statement was; "Five aimed shots at 25 yards with 626 Smith loaded with Skeeter Skelton 44 Special loads". Long range shooting is great practice for sure, I do it myself... but don't overlook close range, bad breath, pucker factor training either, as it's more realistic.

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Old November 28, 2019, 08:34 AM   #111
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StihlKicking - While I applaud you for that - you are a rapidly dying breed.


Agreed! I tote what I am comfortable and proficient with and would suggest that others do the same. The revolvers I carry serve me the best. There really isn’t a single universally right answer. If any of us ever find ourselves in a situation that requires 15 plus shots I only pray that there is a rifle close at hand.
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Old November 28, 2019, 08:36 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by J.G. Terry View Post
What you are telling me is that to carry a high capacity auto is to be over gunned, Right? I don't need more than five shots. Most confrontations are at very close range. Right. How do you know. These miscreants are keen judges of weakness. They can travel in groups of four. These people are known to ride in SUV's very well armed. If I show my Chief Special these monsters will run in fear. Ha. This speculation is from cloud cuckoo land. In difficult times there is no such things as too big a caliber or too much ammo. I didn't make that last on up. Also another old time saying is that a handgun is used to fight your way to a rifle or shotgun. I was lectured by a gun store commando how Glock's were not concealable. Right? Wrong! I was carrying a G26 as he spoke. This was the guy who low rated HK's because the paddle magazine release would bump into the store counter and drop the magazine. You can get really good advice in a gun store. For that matter a gun rag is really a good place to get information.

Added: My G23.4 has a 4.2 inch barrel. Stock as a doorknob.
I don't believe we can know all things perfectly, and yes we could find ourselves outgunned and overwhelmed by attackers. I guess everything in life is based on our assessment of risk. I do not carry a fire extinguisher with me, but have been twice evacuated from a building when a fire began in a kitchen somewhere. I have never carried an AED, but have twice been present when someone had a heart attack. Hell I found one man on the side of a road who'd collapsed from it. What are the odds of that? And yet I do carry a handgun, thought the last violent encounter in my life was a brief fist fight in 7th grade during a flag football game, and we both spent the rest of that day in detention.

Nobody will ever know whether 5, 10, or 25 rounds of ammo was enough until after the fight is over I guess. I hope it never starts, and from the way I live my life, with no unnecessary risks, I'm hopeful I will avoid conflict. Most of the time, if I'm carrying, it'll be 9 rounds of 9mm with an 8 round reload.
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Old November 28, 2019, 08:42 AM   #113
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I remember being told that the typical self-defense shooting occurs at 5-10 feet and involves less than 3 shots being fired. What difference does it make if you have a 15 round magazine or 5 rounds if you are likely going to fire less than 3? Unlike in the movies, once the shooting starts people try to vacate pretty quickly.
Statistics are just that...gather a BUNCH of available info and make statements, assumptions and conclusions..BUT what has happened in the past is not a guarantee of what will happen in the future. It's a 'bell curve' and you may find yourself at one end or another. I know I'm preaching to this choir..why I just went from a G43(7+1) to a G26(15+1)....
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Old November 28, 2019, 08:44 AM   #114
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The closet Wall Mart is a high crime area with many dope deals going on after dark. The parking lot is visited by the homeless during the day. This Wallyworld is supposed to be the most highly shoplifted store in the USA. As I recall many years ago police were trained that a person armed with a knife could move very fast across seven yards. So I'm supposed to start shooting wild at any range? If I can function at 25 yards how about three or five. Have you ever heard of a drive by? Most, Most, Most. It is highly unlikely that terrorist will fly airplanes into the World Trade center.

Added: I can carry at total of twenty-seven rounds how about you
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Old November 28, 2019, 08:48 AM   #115
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?????

Kind of early in the morning for eggnog. But Happy Thanksgiving!

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Old November 28, 2019, 09:03 AM   #116
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3" maybe - but - who carries a 4" revolver these day?


I think you continue to miss my point 100% - so - I'm out of this.
I've beat this dead horse too often.
I carry a 4" 44 magnum on occasion. Your point? The 9mm is just as effective as the 357 magnum? If you have to qualify the statement by saying it is only as good when the 357 is fired from the shortest available barrel, you already lost the horsepower debate.

There is more too it than paper numbers. Bullet construction, bullet profile, shot placement.
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Old November 28, 2019, 09:10 AM   #117
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"Who carries a 4" revolver these days"?

I carry 4" revolvers, most recently and frequently a 4.75" SAA. Fits my hand perfectly, it doesn't jam and I shoot it well. That's what matters to me, accuracy and reliability. 6 accurate shots and a couple of speedstrips... all is good.
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Old November 28, 2019, 09:21 AM   #118
CDR_Glock
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Originally Posted by Don Fischer View Post
So why practice at 25yds? I'll shoot my DA's there and farther but I don't carry them for protection. Farthest I shoot my auto loader's is about 15 paces and I don't aim. Found aiming them make's reaction time pretty darn slow. I point and shoot them now. Hitting a watermelon at 15 pace's just pointing got to be awful easy. I found relying on sight's I didn't shoot auto loader's any better and pointing doesn't waste time trying to aim. But shooting at 25yds, are you really under attack at that distance? I don't know but if the bad guy gives that much warning he's a fool. Or then again maybe he just want's to give you a chance to use your sight's. I don't know that I could hit a watermelon at 25yds just pointing!


I practice out to 25 yards. That’s the length of a store aisle. Considering what has happened AT Walmart in Texas, It’s not out of the realm of reality. But your, right, about aimed shooting. It is not something spontaneous, either.

I point shoot out to 10 yards. I can point shoot from the hip to 7 yards. I can also shoot with either hand. Shooting out of the pocket is something you can do with a revolver, also.

I’m just saying that One needs to be able to widen the possibilities and not be fixed in the paradigm of just one person attacking at bad breath distances these days.


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Old November 28, 2019, 09:22 AM   #119
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@Stihlkicking, interesting anecdote on using a handgun for dealing with putting down large livestock. When I was a kid sometimes we would watch them processing livestock and they always put them down with a single shot 22 RF using shorts and they would drop a cow or hog like a sack of potatoes. They just put the barrel a couple inches from them right between the eyes and that's all it took. My mom would send me there with a quart jar to collect pig blood for making Blood Klub, a Norwegian delicacy which is basically a dumpling made with blood. That's why I was present as things were taking place. They would pop the hog, hang it, slit it's throat and I would just fill the jar as the blood drained. I learned not to be squeamish at a pretty early age.
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Old November 28, 2019, 09:41 AM   #120
J.G. Terry
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Use or no use of sights has to do with training. My carry revolver, should I elect to carry a revolver its a 4" old four screw Model 29 Smith. Loaded with a 255grain Kieth style semi-wad cutter @1200fps is, so far as I know, is more powerful than most any round that fits in a small revolver. It's controllable and accurate. Given a choice of a big gun it would be my G20 in 10mm. To me the absolutely smallest round I would carry is 9mm Luger. Could the low percentage of hits in police shooting have to do with point shooting?
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Old November 28, 2019, 10:07 AM   #121
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Because we didn't learn to shoot from John McClane.
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Old November 28, 2019, 10:18 AM   #122
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I would take a single well placed shot of .44 mag over 15 9mm rounds any day if my life depended on it.
So would I--if I were endangered by a large animal.
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Old November 28, 2019, 10:26 AM   #123
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IMO, practicing at 25 yards with an Airweight or Airlight J Frame forces me to concentrate on the fundamentals such as sight picture and trigger control. Getting those things right at 25 yards makes me better and faster at closer ranges. I also shoot with a timer both up close and at distances out to 25 yards. I use my sights up close unless it's a contact or retention situation.
This, plus it's fun.

The reality is that a lot of defensive encounters are up close and personal. There are factors like surprise, adrenaline, possible injury, and all sorts of unpredictable stuff in the mix. Accepting our limitations and tempering our expectations can be valuable things. Doing drills and taking training courses can help. Pushing ourselves with fun challenges, like bursting a moldy apple on a fence post with our tiny CCW, can also help. A big part of it is enhancing our overall relationship with our tools, making them less something to think about and more an extension of ourselves.
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Old November 28, 2019, 10:30 AM   #124
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If you have to qualify the statement by saying it is only as good when the 357 is fired from the shortest available barrel, you already lost the horsepower debate.
What part of my initial post is out of your grasp - or - are you just trying to be a jerk?

To repeat - I said a full sized Browning Hi Power is nearly the exact same size as a S&W M 66 2" barrel.

Take it as you want....
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Old November 28, 2019, 10:41 AM   #125
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This, plus it's fun.

The reality is that a lot of defensive encounters are up close and personal. There are factors like surprise, adrenaline, possible injury, and all sorts of unpredictable stuff in the mix. Accepting our limitations and tempering our expectations can be valuable things. Doing drills and taking training courses can help. Pushing ourselves with fun challenges, like bursting a moldy apple on a fence post with our tiny CCW, can also help. A big part of it is enhancing our overall relationship with our tools, making them less something to think about and more an extension of ourselves.


My friend can shoot his j frame out to 100 yards. I have been about to reach out to 50 yards. I need to work on reaching 75 yards. He’s the one who pushed me beyond shooting 10 yards. He also pushed me to learn shooting with either hand.

However, the reason I do this, is not necessarily to hit someone that far (I think it would be a massive stretch to justify that in self defense), but it’s the skill to do so. Plus, aimed shooting is fun.

However, we all need to be flexible enough to shoot near, and far. When I compete, anything 10 yards and in is all instinctive/point shooting. Same goes for my carry gun.




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