To Size or not to for Uberti Cattleman 45 Colt

deerslayer303 · February 3, 2022, 02:26 PM

Hey Ya'll.
I got a new Uberti / Stoeger Cattleman in 45 Colt. I have cast up a bunch of Lee 255 RF for it and have sized them to .452. The Cylinder throats in this revolver measure at .452 exactly. The lee bullets with the alloy I'm using (wheel weights) are dropping from the mold (no quench) at .453 - .454". My question is should I even bother sizing the bullets for this Revolver? And secondly, when I decide to fire these bullets over black powder would it be best to cast pure lead and NOT size them?

Thanks in advance

Shadow9mm · February 3, 2022, 04:39 PM

1 should you bother sizing?
Yes I would size them. I go by fit more than anything. I would take one of each size and try and put them through the throat, .452, .453, .454. pick one that just fits, or the next size up that barely wont fit. You want consistent bullets, pick a size and size em.

2 pure lead?
BHN is not everything, but it is a rough guide.
pure lead is abut 5bhn, Wheel Weights have a BHN around 9. I would go with the wheel weights.

This is the guide I found
Light target loads (<800fps, and 10,00PSI) BHN 6-12
standard revolver loads(800-1000fps, 16,000PSI) BHN 8-14
+P Recolver loads (1000-1200fps, 20,000PSI) BHN 10-16
Magnum revolver loads(1200-1500fps, 35,000PSI) BHN 12-20
464 Casulll (1400fps -1800fps, 50,000psi) BHN 16 and up

P.S. in relation to sizing it can get deep. Basically I have always heard 0.001 over the throat diameter was ideal. the idea being you got a good seal between the bullet and throat to prevent gas cutting. I have also heard that the bullet gets bump sized up on firing and it makes no difference. to make things more complicated each cylinder can have a slightly different size. I have fired bullet both ways and for my uses, hunting and informal target practice, I have found no difference but I go with the recommended sizing of just a little bit over. I put bullet through until u find one that barely fits, and size 1 size larger. If you have inconsistent sizing it will effect how much flare you need. How much seating pressure you need. and how much neck tension you have. Having consistently sized bullets, regardless of the size, is important in my experience that exactly what size they are.

Pathfinder45 · February 3, 2022, 10:36 PM

Try them both ways, sized and unsized. Compare otherwise identical loads for accuracy at 25 yards or more, but not less. Try at least 4 six-shot groups of each, carefully rested. 8 grains of Unique is a good accuracy load, but there are others as well. I'm guessing that the as-cast bullets will be a little more accurate than the sized bullets, but you can't really know until you try it. Start with a clean gun and don't clean it until you switch to the opposite set so that both batches start from clean. You probably only need 48 rounds to tell which is best. What powders do you have to work with?

Pathfinder45 · February 3, 2022, 10:38 PM

By the way, I shoot the same bullet, and I don't size them.

Shadow9mm · February 3, 2022, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pathfinder45

Try them both ways, sized and unsized. Compare otherwise identical loads for accuracy at 25 yards or more, but not less. Try at least 4 six-shot groups of each, carefully rested. 8 grains of Unique is a good accuracy load, but there are others as well. I'm guessing that the as-cast bullets will be a little more accurate than the sized bullets, but you can't really know until you try it. Start with a clean gun and don't clean it until you switch to the opposite set so that both batches start from clean. You probably only need 48 rounds to tell which is best. What powders do you have to work with?

That seems a little counter intuitive. Why would an as cast bullet with more variation in diameter and thus neck tension, be more accurate? Are you are relying on the bullets being over sized and getting swaged down to be more accurate, vs the ones sized to the throat diameter, to account for variances in the throat?

Once it warms up enough I need to do some casting and test this out with my 38 specials.... Guess I can add that to my list of projects

deerslayer303 · February 4, 2022, 02:13 AM

Thank you Guys for your input. It is greatly appreciated. I currently have Trail Boss, Pyrodex P, and Goex FFFg. I don't have any Unique yet. I have used it in the past for other calibers and liked it very much. It's just not available around here yet. I'm mainly gonna Start with the Trail Boss. Then work my way into Black powder later. As my lube will change and I kinda want to get a bullet with a bigger lube groove for B.P. I'll try both sized and unsized. The sized bullets will go right into the throat side of the cylinder with just a little finger pressure. The unsized not so much.

Sent from my E6910 using Tapatalk

Pathfinder45 · February 4, 2022, 02:30 AM

If the bullet is larger than the cylinder throats, the throats will swage the bullets to their size. Ideally, all the throats should be uniform; the bullets should be barely larger than the throats; the throats barely larger than the barrel's groove diameter; and hopefully that barrel's internal diameter is not constricted by compression where it threads into the frame.

Pathfinder45 · February 4, 2022, 03:02 AM

Your fffG black powder, while a bit more complicated to load, will yield excellent results with your cast bullets, if done correctly. I lube mine in a pan of melted toilet-bowl-sealing-wax. It's soft, gooey, sticky, messy, but it works well with BP and smokeless. What's your barrel length on that Cattleman?

Shadow9mm · February 4, 2022, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deerslayer303

Thank you Guys for your input. It is greatly appreciated. I currently have Trail Boss, Pyrodex P, and Goex FFFg. I don't have any Unique yet. I have used it in the past for other calibers and liked it very much. It's just not available around here yet. I'm mainly gonna Start with the Trail Boss. Then work my way into Black powder later. As my lube will change and I kinda want to get a bullet with a bigger lube groove for B.P. I'll try both sized and unsized. The sized bullets will go right into the throat side of the cylinder with just a little finger pressure. The unsized not so much.

Sent from my E6910 using Tapatalk

So you could size at .452 or leave it un-sized at .453 to .454. Lee does not make a .453 sizer in their traditional die sizer kits so that kind of answers that question.

Although they do make one for their lee APP press system https://leeprecision.com/breech-lock-bullet-sizing-kit/

deerslayer303 · February 4, 2022, 11:22 AM

The Barrel Length is 5.5".

Pathfinder45 · February 5, 2022, 12:31 AM

Your fffG black powder will likely yield around 950 fps if you can manage to pack 35 grains of it under those bullets.

February 3, 2022, 02:26 PM	#1
deerslayer303 Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2011 Location: Leesville SC Posts: 2,654	To Size or not to for Uberti Cattleman 45 Colt Hey Ya'll. I got a new Uberti / Stoeger Cattleman in 45 Colt. I have cast up a bunch of Lee 255 RF for it and have sized them to .452. The Cylinder throats in this revolver measure at .452 exactly. The lee bullets with the alloy I'm using (wheel weights) are dropping from the mold (no quench) at .453 - .454". My question is should I even bother sizing the bullets for this Revolver? And secondly, when I decide to fire these bullets over black powder would it be best to cast pure lead and NOT size them? Thanks in advance __________________ "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery." - Thomas Jefferson

February 3, 2022, 04:39 PM	#2
Shadow9mm Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2012 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 3,974	1 should you bother sizing? Yes I would size them. I go by fit more than anything. I would take one of each size and try and put them through the throat, .452, .453, .454. pick one that just fits, or the next size up that barely wont fit. You want consistent bullets, pick a size and size em. 2 pure lead? BHN is not everything, but it is a rough guide. pure lead is abut 5bhn, Wheel Weights have a BHN around 9. I would go with the wheel weights. This is the guide I found Light target loads (<800fps, and 10,00PSI) BHN 6-12 standard revolver loads(800-1000fps, 16,000PSI) BHN 8-14 +P Recolver loads (1000-1200fps, 20,000PSI) BHN 10-16 Magnum revolver loads(1200-1500fps, 35,000PSI) BHN 12-20 464 Casulll (1400fps -1800fps, 50,000psi) BHN 16 and up P.S. in relation to sizing it can get deep. Basically I have always heard 0.001 over the throat diameter was ideal. the idea being you got a good seal between the bullet and throat to prevent gas cutting. I have also heard that the bullet gets bump sized up on firing and it makes no difference. to make things more complicated each cylinder can have a slightly different size. I have fired bullet both ways and for my uses, hunting and informal target practice, I have found no difference but I go with the recommended sizing of just a little bit over. I put bullet through until u find one that barely fits, and size 1 size larger. If you have inconsistent sizing it will effect how much flare you need. How much seating pressure you need. and how much neck tension you have. Having consistently sized bullets, regardless of the size, is important in my experience that exactly what size they are. __________________ I don't believe in "range fodder" that is why I reload. Last edited by Shadow9mm; February 3, 2022 at 04:54 PM.

February 4, 2022, 11:22 AM	#10
deerslayer303 Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2011 Location: Leesville SC Posts: 2,654	The Barrel Length is 5.5". __________________ "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery." - Thomas Jefferson

February 3, 2022, 10:36 PM	#3
Pathfinder45 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Posts: 3,224	Try them both ways, sized and unsized. Compare otherwise identical loads for accuracy at 25 yards or more, but not less. Try at least 4 six-shot groups of each, carefully rested. 8 grains of Unique is a good accuracy load, but there are others as well. I'm guessing that the as-cast bullets will be a little more accurate than the sized bullets, but you can't really know until you try it. Start with a clean gun and don't clean it until you switch to the opposite set so that both batches start from clean. You probably only need 48 rounds to tell which is best. What powders do you have to work with?

February 3, 2022, 10:38 PM	#4
Pathfinder45 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Posts: 3,224	By the way, I shoot the same bullet, and I don't size them.

February 4, 2022, 02:13 AM	#6
deerslayer303 Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2011 Location: Leesville SC Posts: 2,654	Thank you Guys for your input. It is greatly appreciated. I currently have Trail Boss, Pyrodex P, and Goex FFFg. I don't have any Unique yet. I have used it in the past for other calibers and liked it very much. It's just not available around here yet. I'm mainly gonna Start with the Trail Boss. Then work my way into Black powder later. As my lube will change and I kinda want to get a bullet with a bigger lube groove for B.P. I'll try both sized and unsized. The sized bullets will go right into the throat side of the cylinder with just a little finger pressure. The unsized not so much. Sent from my E6910 using Tapatalk

February 4, 2022, 02:30 AM	#7
Pathfinder45 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Posts: 3,224	If the bullet is larger than the cylinder throats, the throats will swage the bullets to their size. Ideally, all the throats should be uniform; the bullets should be barely larger than the throats; the throats barely larger than the barrel's groove diameter; and hopefully that barrel's internal diameter is not constricted by compression where it threads into the frame.

February 4, 2022, 03:02 AM	#8
Pathfinder45 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Posts: 3,224	Your fffG black powder, while a bit more complicated to load, will yield excellent results with your cast bullets, if done correctly. I lube mine in a pan of melted toilet-bowl-sealing-wax. It's soft, gooey, sticky, messy, but it works well with BP and smokeless. What's your barrel length on that Cattleman?

February 5, 2022, 12:31 AM	#11
Pathfinder45 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Posts: 3,224	Your fffG black powder will likely yield around 950 fps if you can manage to pack 35 grains of it under those bullets.