Low Velocity Expansion Bullets

[reloader28]

[bobn]

hmm i am thinking out loud here. a 300 blackout and a 6.8 spec are basically lower velocity smaller cartridges of 277 and 308 diameter?
....if the reduced loads in a full size case mimic those velocities why wouldnt a guy just use those same bullets? like the 125 noslers from the blackout and the 110 barnes from the 6.8 ....just saying...bobn

[Unclenick]

@bobn,

In the context of this discussion, they are concerned the standard bullets may not expand well at the reduced velocities.

[gwpercle]

For the 308 ... Lee makes 8 different bullet moulds , ranging in weight from a lightweight of 113 grains to a heavyweight 230 grains .
Cast from a alloy of 8.5 to 9 bhn (50-50 mix of wheel weights and lead which is rather soft) they can be driven easily to 1200 fps and will mushroom nicely . The 170 gr. FP when air cooled makes for a nice hunting bullet and mushroms impressively ... vel was about 1600 fps .
Hollow point mould will give even more dramatic expansion .
Powder coated 1/40 Tin -Lead cast bullets would be another soft bullet to try ...
1000 fps should get you a nicely flattened mushroomed bullet .
When dealing with low velocity expanding bullets you want Soft ...
stay away from any saying Hard Cast ... you want a bhn below 10 ...
think how muzzle loaders and black powder rifles work ...low velocities and soft projectiles .
Gary

[44 AMP]

think how muzzle loaders and black powder rifles work ...low velocities and soft projectiles .

and big bores so even if the lead doesn't expand its still a mighty "thwop!"

[Pathfinder45]

For the 308 and larger 30 caliber guns, it's entirely feasible to use 30-30 bullets, throttled back to typical 30-30 velocities.

[44 AMP]

Yes, its entirely feasible, to use .30-30 bullets, now here's the down side, if you don't throttle them back, they overexpand, even "blow up" at .30 magnum speeds, and if you do throttle them back, you might as well be shooting a .30-30.

While I personally haven't run a .30-30 bullet in a .300 mangum, I have run .45-70 slugs in a .458 Win, and run 125 .357 JHP out of a carbine at 2200fps and I'm certain the same principle will apply to .30-30 bullets. Drive them too fast and they don't perform the way they do in their intended velocity range.

So, if you don't want the bullet "blowing up" from excess velocity, that's easily done with handloads, but then you lose all the advantage the bigger faster cartridge gives you in terms of energy and trajectory.

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by 44AMP

Is "marginally lethal" like being "slightly pregnant"??

or is it like "less lethal" which is only part of the term "less likely to be lethal" which gives a distorted and inaccurate impression?

“Marginally Lethal” is like I aim for the heart or lungs, and the bullet tumbles off to the right missing the vitals. When a bullet tumbles, it creates a much smaller wound area and tends to move away from my line of aim. If it misses the internals I’m aiming at, it may not be lethal at all.

Originally Posted by 44AMP

Did they change target bullet construction and I missed the memo??

None of the target "match" rifle bullets I've ever used, seen or heard of was made for controlled expansion or for penetration and expansion.

I've used 52/53gr match bullets very successfully, for varmint hunting, driven at high speed from a .22-250. They work well, because not only accurate, but they BLOW UP when they hit a target.

That same performance that zaps woodchucks and smaller varmints and nails coyotes with a proper hit is miserable performance on deer, elk, bear, or other larger game animals.

The best big game bullets combine controlled expansion, penetration and weight retention. And, of those three, expansion is the least important, UNLESS it interferes with the other two.

To an extent, you are right. Explosive performance is great on varmints. On them, I cannot see the need to drive deep and expand as a killing method. With a quartering elk, I may need to penetrate 3 ft to exit. To me an exit is important.

This comes down to 3 key points:
1) Shot Path: I want a bullet to drive through the animal on the path I aimed for.
2) Exit: I want an exit for the animal to effectively bleed out of for tracking and loss of blood pressure.
3) Expansion: I want my bullets to maximize the work done on the animals organs. This shows on the bullet as expansion and expansion or over expansion causes weight loss.

So, I strongly agree with the need to expand. An expanded bullet flies true through flesh and does maximum damage, IME.

The theory with monos and even top performing cup n core expanding rounds is they hit game, expand and exit. They can perform even facing bones and long penetration paths.

The target bullets have issues punching through animals at low velocity and over expansion at high velocity. To get better low velocity performance, people will aim for rib cage and true broadside shots. This can be effective down to ~1500fps, I read. Target bullets can be effective up close by choosing shots and entry points without bone cover. As you can see these are highly technical shots for very well practiced shooters.

I’m chasing monos launched at ~3000fps or faster limiting shots to the range where speed drops to 1800fps. Even at that, below 2000fps, I will be aiming to the rib cage to create expansion…and I know monos won’t blow up.

I’d like to hear your thoughts on why weight retention is so important.

[Jim Watson]

I don't know the bullet expansion characteristics to recommend a brand but can say to just look at the advertisements for the long range hunting bullets. A bullet that expands at 500 yards will be good at 200 with a reduced load.

[USAF Ret]

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

I don't know the bullet expansion characteristics to recommend a brand but can say to just look at the advertisements for the long range hunting bullets. A bullet that expands at 500 yards will be good at 200 with a reduced load.

Thanks Jim, I have nailed down using the ABLR from Nosler in my 308. Exact same thoughts.

[Double Naught Spy]

“Marginally Lethal” is like I aim for the heart or lungs, and the bullet tumbles off to the right missing the vitals.

I have watched plenty of bullets in gel tests NOT tumble, but still veer off the straight line course. I have watched bullets tumble that maintained a nearly perfectly straight trajectory. I haven't seen much that will veer off so dramatically that it would have missed vitals unless the shot was already pretty poorly done already.

No doubt some folks make some interesting shots, like trying to hit the vitals by first going through a hip on one side with a strongly quartering away shot. There may be some issues with the bullet hitting the vitals in a straight line, but likely because of what was impacted more so than velocity shift tumble.

An expanded bullet flies true through flesh and does maximum damage, IME.

Wow, no, not necessarily so by any stretch of the imagination.

[HiBC]

I've not done it recently.but in the past I've found calling the bullet manufacturer and asking them works out pretty well. Ask to talk with a tech rep.

Some bullets are designed for lower velocity performance.

I've forgotten the name of the product. but there is a "Recoil Shield" you can wear under your short or jacket. They work. They come in three different thicknesses.A thinner one would do. You aren't shooting Ultra Mags.

[USAF Ret]

Originally Posted by HiBC

I've not done it recently.but in the past I've found calling the bullet manufacturer and asking them works out pretty well. Ask to talk with a tech rep.

Some bullets are designed for lower velocity performance.

I've forgotten the name of the product. but there is a "Recoil Shield" you can wear under your short or jacket. They work. They come in three different thicknesses.A thinner one would do. You aren't shooting Ultra Mags.

https://www.scheels.com/p/caldwell-m...630e803ac5a7af

[jmr40]

I would think any of the 150 or 170 gr RN bullets designed for 30-30 would work well at reduced velocity in a 308.

Another option is the 130 gr Solid Copper bullets. They CAN be loaded up to 3100 fps in a 308, and to be honest even at that speed recoil isn't too bad. But they could also be loaded much slower. A lighter copper bullet could also do the same thing in 270.

You still need around 2000 fps for good expansion, but if you start them at 2600 fps you should be above 2000 at your intended ranges. Around 2600 fps is the starting load in my manuals. That's around 13 ft lbs recoil. About the same as 6.5CM.

Something like this factory load

https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/r...custom-lite#!/

My concern is good accuracy with loads that light. I accidentally picked up some 150 gr RN bullets designed for 30-30 a few years ago. Since I don't load for 30-30 I experimented with reduced 30-30 level loads and never got GREAT accuracy. It wasn't horrible, just not what I'm used to.