Customer Shoots Robbery Suspect. Clerk also wounded - Page 2

jeff_troop · September 29, 2005, 09:48 PM

massan i hear what you are saying and i agree with your point. we all have to make a call based on our life experiences. if it was someone i cared for the rules would change. my above view is based on all of the involved persons being strangers. yes i admit i will discriminate in my use of force. i carry to protect myself and those very close to me.

AAshooter · September 29, 2005, 11:30 PM

Blackmind, when I figure out the trick to judging one's true intent 100% accurately, I will let you know. In fact, I will let a lot of people know. I could do seminars throughout the US.

Until then, we have to make the best judgements we can.

leadcounsel · September 30, 2005, 11:46 AM

Kudos for the CCW intervening and shooting the BG.

As for 7 shots, it seems that 6 wasn't enough because the BG shot the clerk. It also seems that shooting was necessary because the BG shot the clerk. While we don't know what occured first, second, etc., seems that a pat on the back for the CCW is in order.

Harley: Can you please decode your threads from now on... sometimes I have to read them multiple times to figure out what the heck you're talking about.

Quote:

I had a buddy who went to a 711, no shooter he died because of it. Had another who had a shooter, he became a hero.

swmike · September 30, 2005, 12:35 PM

Here is an updated story regarding the Robbery attempt and shooting.

http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/c...-4740980c.html

For those not familiar with the area this took place in, it is a rather average, mostly residential area with some retail centers. It isn't what one might think of as "inner city". My point here is that crime can happen anywhere, even in your neighborhood!

By the article, it also appears that the Tacoma Police Dept. understands "Self Defense".

jk3 · September 30, 2005, 08:09 PM

i would shoot with out warning but i would do it from
a position where only the bg would be hit[hopefully]

John28226 · September 30, 2005, 08:20 PM

That night in March, the young woman returned to her apartment after working late. It was 3:15 A.M. when she parked her car and began the 20 foot walk to her door. While she was locking the car, the man who had been hiding in the shadows began his approach; the woman sensed danger and tried to run to her door. The attacker caught her under the street light, knocked her to the sidewalk and began to stab her. "Oh my God, He stabbed me, please help me", she screamed several times. Lights in the neighborhood came on, people looked out windows: a man yelled at the attacker to leave the lady alone. Surprisingly the attacker walked away. Lights went out. No one came to the aid of the wounded woman; no one called the police. The young woman, dazed and bleeding, pulled herself up and tried to get to the safety of her apartment. The attacker returned and again began to stab her. Again the lady screamed, "I'm dying, I'm dying". Again, lights came on, people looked out windows. Again the attacker left, this time in a vehicle. Lights go out. The attacker returns a third time (he told the police that he had not "finished the job"). This time he finds the bleeding and unconcious victim on the floor just inside the building entrance. He uses his knife to cut off her clothing and, while she lay helpless, blood pouring from her wounds, sexually assaults her. The attacker then stabs her one final time, killing the helpless young woman. Her killer removes $49 from her wallet and calmly walks away. All told, 37 people witnessed some part of the attack which lasted over a half hour. Finally someone did call the police, but only after calling a friend in another neighborhood for advise. Police, once called arrived in less than 5 minutes.

Catherine Genovese was 28 years old. She died on March 13, 1964. The witnesses defended their failure to do anything by stating that they "did not want to get involved".

At the time this took place I was 27 years old, almost the same age as Kitty. I was horrified that so many people witnessed a brutal attack and did absolutely nothing. A few years later I was sworn in as a police officer. Although I am no longer a law enforcement officer I doubt that I could stand by and witness a crime take place - any crime! I know it is not my "job", I have no desire to harm another human being, but stand by and watch a crime being committed, knowing I can do something and not doing it? I hope not.

Before you tell me that property crime is different, tell me how you know the robber would not have shot the clerk? A friend of mine walked into a convenience store during a robbery, saw what was happening, turned to leave and was shot in the back. He is paralyzed from the waist down.

There are a lot of things to fear, but I think the one thing I fear most is a loss of my self respect. Your standards may be different and I guess, for you, that is O.K. But I can not help but wonder, even to this day, how do those people sleep at night?

John
Charlotte, NC

Harley Quinn · September 30, 2005, 08:52 PM

Good point John.

Lead decoding for you......------....--......-----.. Does that help?

I will further state. At a couple of Stop and Rob stores.

#1
One evening a friend of mine had the right to carry, but instead of having his 38spl on him he chose not to, went to a 7-11 store to get some milk for dinner. He walked into a robbery in progress, got shot and died. So did others....

#2
Another friend went to the store, local small liquor type, was going to get more beer for the fight he was going to watch on tv, slipped his 45 gov auto in his waist band. Walked in and as he was in the rear of the store two bad guys tried to hold it up. He shot them, they ran and were caught latter at the hospital. So much for the 230 grain ammo.

Number one ended up on a slab at the morgue. Number two was the hero.

Moral of the story drink beer not milk.
Also if you are going to go into a place and have no gun be very careful what you are walking into.
Shoot first ask questions later. Always yell something, split second later shoot like you have never shot before. Really. Yell it helps clear your senses.
...---...---...---...---...---...---...---OK

Harley

USP45usp · September 30, 2005, 09:03 PM

I know that it's not allowed to put forth my convictions or morals upon the board but in this case, I feel that it's appropriate.

It is morally wrong to allow a fellow innocent human die due to my inactions when I had the tools for the job upon my person.

I see with the naysayers two points of view:

1. I don't wish to help someone and then face the courts for my actions of trying to save a life.

2. My life is more important then theirs.

Harsh, yes, but that is what I'm basically getting from reading the replies (well, some of them).

Now, I'm not saying that you should commit suicide but if the oppurtunaty arises where you can take action then you should. If the situation seems to be a no win situation for the clerk and the customers (including you) and that you have a tool upon you to help, then you are morally right to take action.

I won't say anything if a person with the tools needed didn't take action, but I sure wouldn't give you the time of day or even call you friend if you allowed an innocent to die because you failed when the chance presented itself to save another. I don't care of the excuse given.

Sorry, but that is the way that I feel. Wrong or right in the eyes of the members here, that is just the values that I live by.

Wayne

edited: And I'm not shoving my morals or values down anyone's throat, it's just my opinion and that is all it is so please don't read into it.

tanksoldier · September 30, 2005, 09:34 PM

I used the "give warning and shoot if weapon visible" option, but there are situations where a warning might not be possible.

As for whether to become involved, there may be situations where it is tactically unwise to draw and fire immediately (in the BG's direct LOS, for example) and this may result in the BG completing his robbery and leaving.

However, the idea of not getting involved purely out of fear for my personal safety is repugnant to me.

BobK · September 30, 2005, 10:11 PM

It is a very tough call. I don't think any of the replies so far has been wrong. One part of me says shoot first to kill and the other part says walk away and mind your own business.
I do know that if I walked away and someone got hurt because I didn't help, I couldn't live with that guilt.
But I also know that I should not put myself in a postion in which I may not make it home to my family but instead to the local morgue.
I know some well known gun writers and instructors who advocate self and family only. All others must fend for themselves. I guess it depends on the situation. If confronted by a similar situation, I hope I would have the ability to make a good desicion REAL fast.

Harley Quinn · September 30, 2005, 11:24 PM

When you pack to protect you need to think different then the 'normal everday oh this is such a nice day I am so happy' people.

The only way you can do this is to train yourself mentally and physically. By doing this you are most of the time alert. So much so that quite a few people will know that you are different, and have a tendency to avoid.

The old story "you have cops eyes" is very similar. Now if you are a covert cop then what? You are always ready. Sounds weird but it is true. If you take the time to carry a gun you need to be able to use it, and be willing.

I just got back from the range went over for a quick check up on a shooter that I have close all the time. I shot and tried a few things and then got serious. Now this is a 380 1935 beretta. Good little shooter. I shot at five yards. 7 shot groups that could be covered with a 50 cent piece. True!

When hurrying it was more like a 3 inch group.

Not bragging just telling you how it is in my world.

Harley

swmike · October 8, 2005, 01:56 PM

Seems like this story has another interesting facet. It appears to prove that Lightning can strike twice!

It appears that the "Citizen" (apparently named Joe) that shot the BG in this robbery had another incident about a year ago that he had to draw and fire his weapon. Someone was attempting to steal his car and in the process, Joe was standing in front of the car when the thief started away. Joe fired through the windshield striking the thief. The thief was able to drive away and the police found the car later, blood on the seat.

As another note, "Joe" was carrying a 45. Last years shooting where he hit the BG didn't disable and the thief was able to drive away. This years shooting with the same gun, he fired 7 rounds (full load), hitting the BG with all, and it wasn't fatal. I have been reading on another post how the ".45 Faithful" claim that the .45 doesn't do this. It does such damage that multiple hits are sure to kill. Only 9 mm performs like this. (Sorry, I couldn't help myself and I'll go to my room now

)

Garand Illusion · October 8, 2005, 03:34 PM

There was no answer for me on this one. I would have needed: "I would not get involved unless I felt lives were in danger."

Of course, I would also get as far away (safely) from the trouble as I could while still keeping on eye on the situation.

I would want to be in a position to intervene if the BG starts shooting for no reason, but I would be fine to just watch him walk away with no shots fired as well.

If I did fire, it would be w/o warning.

Clinot · October 8, 2005, 04:23 PM

^^^ Firing without warning is a horrible idea, what if the situation were reversed and you were holding someone until the law arrived? If another gung-ho CCW saw you he would probably do the same thing to you.

Who wins?

BloodyBucket03 · October 8, 2005, 06:09 PM

This is a tough call. Acting in a situation depends on many variables. Like how many armed robbers are in the store? Where you are positioned relative to them. What type of weapons are they carrying? Is it possible to get a clean shot or number of shots off without getting hit? There are only 2 windows of opportunity to get a shot off. When the perp first enters the store depending on your positioning and how fast you could get a shot off or when he has everyone held up and is distracted by something for the moment and is not paying attention to the civilians around him. Other than that acting is not a good idea. Or even if a group of men hold up a store or even a bank with assault weapons. My opinion is even if you are carrying depending on the number of men and the amount of ammo you carry you might not want to get involved. What can a 9mm pistol with maybe one clip do against maybe a group of men with AK-47 and full 40 round clips per person? A lot to think about. Or say you are one of those guys that carry’s but not with one in the pike. That means you have to first cock your weapon then fire. That means when a robber first walks into a place there is no way for you to get that first shot. So you will have to wait for that opportunity when the perp is not looking to pull cock then fire. It's not that easy to take a person down as it may play off in your mind.

View Poll Results: If armed, would you get involved if a Robbery is taking place?
I would get involved, shooting if necessary	23	28.75%
I would give warning and shoot if weapon visible	6	7.50%
I would shoot without warning if weapon visible	25	31.25%
I would not get involved and try to leave if possible	26	32.50%
Voters: 80. You may not vote on this poll

September 29, 2005, 11:30 PM	#27
AAshooter Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2001 Posts: 379	Blackmind, when I figure out the trick to judging one's true intent 100% accurately, I will let you know. In fact, I will let a lot of people know. I could do seminars throughout the US. Until then, we have to make the best judgements we can. __________________ Play hard, shoot often, leave well worn guns!

September 30, 2005, 12:35 PM	#29
swmike Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2005 Location: Marysville, WA Posts: 670	Update 9/30/2005 Here is an updated story regarding the Robbery attempt and shooting. http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/c...-4740980c.html For those not familiar with the area this took place in, it is a rather average, mostly residential area with some retail centers. It isn't what one might think of as "inner city". My point here is that crime can happen anywhere, even in your neighborhood! By the article, it also appears that the Tacoma Police Dept. understands "Self Defense". __________________ My definition of Gun Control--- A steady grip and hitting your target. "In God we trust, all others are suspects." "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying, either I won't need any more, or more won't be of any help". ____________________________________________

September 30, 2005, 08:20 PM	#31
John28226 Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2005 Location: North Carolina Posts: 292	Involved? That night in March, the young woman returned to her apartment after working late. It was 3:15 A.M. when she parked her car and began the 20 foot walk to her door. While she was locking the car, the man who had been hiding in the shadows began his approach; the woman sensed danger and tried to run to her door. The attacker caught her under the street light, knocked her to the sidewalk and began to stab her. "Oh my God, He stabbed me, please help me", she screamed several times. Lights in the neighborhood came on, people looked out windows: a man yelled at the attacker to leave the lady alone. Surprisingly the attacker walked away. Lights went out. No one came to the aid of the wounded woman; no one called the police. The young woman, dazed and bleeding, pulled herself up and tried to get to the safety of her apartment. The attacker returned and again began to stab her. Again the lady screamed, "I'm dying, I'm dying". Again, lights came on, people looked out windows. Again the attacker left, this time in a vehicle. Lights go out. The attacker returns a third time (he told the police that he had not "finished the job"). This time he finds the bleeding and unconcious victim on the floor just inside the building entrance. He uses his knife to cut off her clothing and, while she lay helpless, blood pouring from her wounds, sexually assaults her. The attacker then stabs her one final time, killing the helpless young woman. Her killer removes $49 from her wallet and calmly walks away. All told, 37 people witnessed some part of the attack which lasted over a half hour. Finally someone did call the police, but only after calling a friend in another neighborhood for advise. Police, once called arrived in less than 5 minutes. Catherine Genovese was 28 years old. She died on March 13, 1964. The witnesses defended their failure to do anything by stating that they "did not want to get involved". At the time this took place I was 27 years old, almost the same age as Kitty. I was horrified that so many people witnessed a brutal attack and did absolutely nothing. A few years later I was sworn in as a police officer. Although I am no longer a law enforcement officer I doubt that I could stand by and witness a crime take place - any crime! I know it is not my "job", I have no desire to harm another human being, but stand by and watch a crime being committed, knowing I can do something and not doing it? I hope not. Before you tell me that property crime is different, tell me how you know the robber would not have shot the clerk? A friend of mine walked into a convenience store during a robbery, saw what was happening, turned to leave and was shot in the back. He is paralyzed from the waist down. There are a lot of things to fear, but I think the one thing I fear most is a loss of my self respect. Your standards may be different and I guess, for you, that is O.K. But I can not help but wonder, even to this day, how do those people sleep at night? John Charlotte, NC

September 30, 2005, 08:52 PM	#32
Harley Quinn Junior member Join Date: August 30, 2005 Location: State of KALI Posts: 1,531	John they don't Good point John. Lead decoding for you......------....--......-----.. Does that help? I will further state. At a couple of Stop and Rob stores. #1 One evening a friend of mine had the right to carry, but instead of having his 38spl on him he chose not to, went to a 7-11 store to get some milk for dinner. He walked into a robbery in progress, got shot and died. So did others.... #2 Another friend went to the store, local small liquor type, was going to get more beer for the fight he was going to watch on tv, slipped his 45 gov auto in his waist band. Walked in and as he was in the rear of the store two bad guys tried to hold it up. He shot them, they ran and were caught latter at the hospital. So much for the 230 grain ammo. Number one ended up on a slab at the morgue. Number two was the hero. Moral of the story drink beer not milk. Also if you are going to go into a place and have no gun be very careful what you are walking into. Shoot first ask questions later. Always yell something, split second later shoot like you have never shot before. Really. Yell it helps clear your senses. ...---...---...---...---...---...---...---OK Harley

September 29, 2005, 09:48 PM	#26
jeff_troop Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2005 Location: NRA Patron member from MS Posts: 459	massan i hear what you are saying and i agree with your point. we all have to make a call based on our life experiences. if it was someone i cared for the rules would change. my above view is based on all of the involved persons being strangers. yes i admit i will discriminate in my use of force. i carry to protect myself and those very close to me.

September 30, 2005, 08:09 PM	#30
jk3 Junior member Join Date: September 21, 2005 Location: illinois Posts: 16	i would shoot with out warning but i would do it from a position where only the bg would be hit[hopefully]

September 30, 2005, 09:03 PM	#33
USP45usp Junior member Join Date: May 17, 2000 Location: Eugene, OR Posts: 3,427	I know that it's not allowed to put forth my convictions or morals upon the board but in this case, I feel that it's appropriate. It is morally wrong to allow a fellow innocent human die due to my inactions when I had the tools for the job upon my person. I see with the naysayers two points of view: 1. I don't wish to help someone and then face the courts for my actions of trying to save a life. 2. My life is more important then theirs. Harsh, yes, but that is what I'm basically getting from reading the replies (well, some of them). Now, I'm not saying that you should commit suicide but if the oppurtunaty arises where you can take action then you should. If the situation seems to be a no win situation for the clerk and the customers (including you) and that you have a tool upon you to help, then you are morally right to take action. I won't say anything if a person with the tools needed didn't take action, but I sure wouldn't give you the time of day or even call you friend if you allowed an innocent to die because you failed when the chance presented itself to save another. I don't care of the excuse given. Sorry, but that is the way that I feel. Wrong or right in the eyes of the members here, that is just the values that I live by. Wayne edited: And I'm not shoving my morals or values down anyone's throat, it's just my opinion and that is all it is so please don't read into it.

September 30, 2005, 09:34 PM	#34
tanksoldier Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 219	I used the "give warning and shoot if weapon visible" option, but there are situations where a warning might not be possible. As for whether to become involved, there may be situations where it is tactically unwise to draw and fire immediately (in the BG's direct LOS, for example) and this may result in the BG completing his robbery and leaving. However, the idea of not getting involved purely out of fear for my personal safety is repugnant to me. __________________ I am a Soldier. I fight where I'm told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

September 30, 2005, 10:11 PM	#35
BobK Senior Member Join Date: June 19, 2005 Posts: 838	It is a very tough call. I don't think any of the replies so far has been wrong. One part of me says shoot first to kill and the other part says walk away and mind your own business. I do know that if I walked away and someone got hurt because I didn't help, I couldn't live with that guilt. But I also know that I should not put myself in a postion in which I may not make it home to my family but instead to the local morgue. I know some well known gun writers and instructors who advocate self and family only. All others must fend for themselves. I guess it depends on the situation. If confronted by a similar situation, I hope I would have the ability to make a good desicion REAL fast.

September 30, 2005, 11:24 PM	#36
Harley Quinn Junior member Join Date: August 30, 2005 Location: State of KALI Posts: 1,531	All I would just like to say When you pack to protect you need to think different then the 'normal everday oh this is such a nice day I am so happy' people. The only way you can do this is to train yourself mentally and physically. By doing this you are most of the time alert. So much so that quite a few people will know that you are different, and have a tendency to avoid. The old story "you have cops eyes" is very similar. Now if you are a covert cop then what? You are always ready. Sounds weird but it is true. If you take the time to carry a gun you need to be able to use it, and be willing. I just got back from the range went over for a quick check up on a shooter that I have close all the time. I shot and tried a few things and then got serious. Now this is a 380 1935 beretta. Good little shooter. I shot at five yards. 7 shot groups that could be covered with a 50 cent piece. True! When hurrying it was more like a 3 inch group. Not bragging just telling you how it is in my world. Harley

October 8, 2005, 01:56 PM	#37
swmike Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2005 Location: Marysville, WA Posts: 670	Another Update!!! Seems like this story has another interesting facet. It appears to prove that Lightning can strike twice! It appears that the "Citizen" (apparently named Joe) that shot the BG in this robbery had another incident about a year ago that he had to draw and fire his weapon. Someone was attempting to steal his car and in the process, Joe was standing in front of the car when the thief started away. Joe fired through the windshield striking the thief. The thief was able to drive away and the police found the car later, blood on the seat. As another note, "Joe" was carrying a 45. Last years shooting where he hit the BG didn't disable and the thief was able to drive away. This years shooting with the same gun, he fired 7 rounds (full load), hitting the BG with all, and it wasn't fatal. I have been reading on another post how the ".45 Faithful" claim that the .45 doesn't do this. It does such damage that multiple hits are sure to kill. Only 9 mm performs like this. (Sorry, I couldn't help myself and I'll go to my room now ) __________________ My definition of Gun Control--- A steady grip and hitting your target. "In God we trust, all others are suspects." "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying, either I won't need any more, or more won't be of any help". ____________________________________________

October 8, 2005, 03:34 PM	#38
Garand Illusion Senior Member Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,278	There was no answer for me on this one. I would have needed: "I would not get involved unless I felt lives were in danger." Of course, I would also get as far away (safely) from the trouble as I could while still keeping on eye on the situation. I would want to be in a position to intervene if the BG starts shooting for no reason, but I would be fine to just watch him walk away with no shots fired as well. If I did fire, it would be w/o warning.

October 8, 2005, 04:23 PM	#39
Clinot Member Join Date: July 22, 2005 Posts: 25	^^^ Firing without warning is a horrible idea, what if the situation were reversed and you were holding someone until the law arrived? If another gung-ho CCW saw you he would probably do the same thing to you. Who wins?

October 8, 2005, 06:09 PM	#40
BloodyBucket03 Senior Member Join Date: August 24, 2005 Location: Wake Forest, North Carolina Posts: 188	Tough Call This is a tough call. Acting in a situation depends on many variables. Like how many armed robbers are in the store? Where you are positioned relative to them. What type of weapons are they carrying? Is it possible to get a clean shot or number of shots off without getting hit? There are only 2 windows of opportunity to get a shot off. When the perp first enters the store depending on your positioning and how fast you could get a shot off or when he has everyone held up and is distracted by something for the moment and is not paying attention to the civilians around him. Other than that acting is not a good idea. Or even if a group of men hold up a store or even a bank with assault weapons. My opinion is even if you are carrying depending on the number of men and the amount of ammo you carry you might not want to get involved. What can a 9mm pistol with maybe one clip do against maybe a group of men with AK-47 and full 40 round clips per person? A lot to think about. Or say you are one of those guys that carry’s but not with one in the pike. That means you have to first cock your weapon then fire. That means when a robber first walks into a place there is no way for you to get that first shot. So you will have to wait for that opportunity when the perp is not looking to pull cock then fire. It's not that easy to take a person down as it may play off in your mind. __________________ "Better to fight for something than live for nothing."-General George S. Patton "He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and "if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buyone.'' Luke 22:36