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Old January 19, 2020, 03:20 PM   #251
JohnKSa
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True he was initially behind the shooter but did not have his gun readily accessible and looked to me like he was rather laid back.
You're changing the bar on your arguments. I responded to a very specific quote by you that said he: "...let his guard down and was not in the best position to deal with the threat. "

He was watching the shooter the whole time, therefore he did not let his guard down. He was behind the shooter and therefore was in the best position.

If you meant to say that he should have had his "gun readily accessible" then I agree with you. He should have been able to access it easier and faster and preferably without having to stand up.

If you meant to say he was "rather laid back" I would say that I can't see him well enough in the video to assess his "laidbackness". He was clearly paying attention to the guy the whole time and BEGAN reacting immediately when things escalated. It's just that it took him too long to complete his draw.
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Not in my experience. Certainly never ever like this kook with a obviously fake beard and wig with a long coat.
I'm fine with accepting your assertion that you haven't noticed a lot of squirrelly people coming in to the churches that you have attended but would point out that your experience is not universal. Depending on the area (Wilson, in an interview specifically stated that one of the reasons for the security team had to do with moving the church to an area of town that made some folks nervous) and other factors, the number of squirrelly attenders can vary significantly.

And I think it's not hard to understand that not every "squirrel" will be as easy to pick out as this one was. In fact, there may be nothing at all to designate them as unusual until they start shooting. Or they may begin shooting before anyone has a chance to assess their appearance and behavior.

I see a strong tendency in your arguments to treat all situations with "squirrelly" church attenders as if they will be identical to this one and I keep trying to point out that's not possible. I feel quite safe in asserting that the chances of another church shooter coming in with a fake beard is almost nil. It's never happened before and I think it's safe to say that it's not going to happen again.
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So, it very reasonable to conclude that had Mr. White been in condition red when the guy stood up and had his hand on the gun he could have still shot the BG as the BG's attention was not on him initially.
Agreed. However, that wouldn't have resulted in a head shot from the back (as was asserted earlier) since the shooter was already facing in White's general direction while he talked to the usher.

The bottom line is that the shooter gets to make the first move. Until he pulls a gun, shooting him is out of the question. If a security team member happens to be behind him when that happens, that's good for that security team member. If they happen to be in front of him (as in this case), that's bad for them and it's even worse if it takes them 3-4 seconds to draw.
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Stay out of LOS
People turn around. As in this case. The security team member WAS out of the LOS until the shooter turned. I think any reasonable person watching the video will understand why at the point that the shooter turned to face the back of the church, it was no longer possible for White to "Stay out of his LOS" unless he could have teleported himself to another location significantly different from where he was sitting.
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Wilson also attracted the BG...
I see nothing at all in the video to indicate that the shooter was ever aware of Wilson. After he shot the usher, he turned towards the front of the church rather than focusing on Wilson as one would expect had anything called his attention to Wilson.
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I agree. You can't explain it but your opinion is fine.
I hope you will think more about the idea that it's reasonable, or even feasible, to follow someone around a church with your hand on a gun continually ready to draw.

If the "alert level" (for lack of a better term) is really sufficient to warrant that kind of activity, it's time to call the authorities and to start covertly evacuating as many people as possible. And if it's not, well...then it's not.
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Old January 19, 2020, 04:18 PM   #252
J.G. Terry
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Wildcards

Wildcards: Looks like one of wild cards is what the shooters shows up with. We had a nearby mass shooting where six people were killed with a black rifle. Local gang shooters are showing up with black rifles more often from media reports.

There are local churches here that feed the homeless. Waves of seedy looking characters show up at meal time.
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Old January 19, 2020, 04:57 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by JohnKSa
You're changing the bar on your arguments.
With respect, both you and Aguila Blanca are nit picking a bit about shooting them in the back of the head. The key elements to my suggestion is out of sight and hand on the gun. White did not do that and as I posted before there was over 3 seconds from the time BG drew gun fully then fired. Hand on gun and White would have dropped him. When I looked at the film White seems in a laid back posture. Just watching isn't enough. Hand on gun and ready. White was not that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa
I see a strong tendency in your arguments to treat all situations with "squirrelly" church attenders as if they will be identical to this one
No, I'm dealing with this scenario. Otherwise, we could go all over the place. FWIW I too am noticing a tendency in your arguments that churchs are constantly having squirrels in their midst at every service and I don't think that's the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa
I see nothing at all in the video to indicate that the shooter was ever aware of Wilson.
Wilson said so in his interview. He said the shot was full face on and the guy was looking at him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa
People turn around. As in this case.
However, he wasn't looking at White till he stood and fumbled about. Hand on gun sitting about a 1 second draw and it's good night. White would be here today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa
I hope you will think more about the idea that it's reasonable, or even feasible, to follow someone around a church with your hand on a gun continually ready to draw.
I have and that's why it must be done for effective security. You may choose not to and that is your choice but I and those who I work with will do otherwise. I find your approach too passive I'm afraid.
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Old January 19, 2020, 04:59 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by J.G. Terry
There are local churches here that feed the homeless. Waves of seedy looking characters show up at meal time.
Without LOTS of armed security you wouldn't find me...well not there. You know J.G. some places you just shouldn't go.
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Old January 19, 2020, 05:28 PM   #255
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The key elements to my suggestion is out of sight and hand on the gun.
Again, that's not the quote I was responding to. I was responding to your quote that White didn't have SA and was in a bad position. The fact is that neither of those was true. According to Wilson, the whole team was aware of the guy and White was where he was specifically because of where the weirdo was.

Then you responded that he was too laid back and didn't have his gun readily accessible. I pointed out that was not what I responded to and then agreed with the latter, and said that I don't believe there's enough information to assess the former.

Now you're saying that you meant to say that he should have stayed out of sight (which he was until the shooter turned) and had his hand on his gun. Well, that's also not the same thing as not having enough SA or being in a bad position. As far as your assertion that he needed to have his hand on his gun already, I don't see it. Someone, even a weirdo with a fake beard, standing up in church isn't sufficient justification (except in hindsight once you know he turned out to be a shooter) to start grabbing guns.

I'm just saying that when I respond to something, if you take my response and make it seem that it was meant to apply to something other than what I responded to, that 1) it is not constructive and 2) I'm going to point it out to try to insure that my comments are not misconstrued to apply to something other than to what I intended them to apply.
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FWIW I too am noticing a tendency in your arguments that churchs are constantly having squirrels in their midst at every service and I don't think that's the case.
I didn't say that they are "constantly in their midst", but there are certainly enough of them (at least in churches other than the ones you attend) that you can't follow them around with a hand on a gun even if that were acceptable behavior (which it is not).
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However, he wasn't looking at White till he stood and fumbled about.
Well, he was certainly looking at White because the usher and White were both directly in front of him. He may not have been focused on White until White started moving, but that's a different thing.
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Wilson said so in his interview. He said the shot was full face on and the guy was looking at him.
Dunno what to say about that. The guy's face was obviously turned toward Wilson at some point as he pivoted from the back of the church to face the front, and his eyes may have scanned Wilson at that point, but he was clearly heading to the front of the church when he was shot (even had his gun pointing towards the front of the church) and therefore was not focused on Wilson.

If you have a link to that interview, I'd be interested in watching/reading it. I've seen a couple by him but must have missed that one.

I do agree (and have said so a number of times) that White should have been able to get to his gun faster.
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Old January 19, 2020, 06:13 PM   #256
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Not to mention the difficulty of convincing an urban liberal jury that you were in immediate danger of death or serious injury from someone 75+ feet away. Of course, the church shooting was an exception, and a very rare one at that. It wasn't 75 feet, either, probably not even half that.
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Old January 19, 2020, 06:45 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by JohnKSa
Again, that's not the quote I was responding to.
Yeah, I'm responding to you and others so my answers are put together.

So, then I will post this and then really John we'll just have agree to disagree however you may have the last word if it pleases you. If you want to discuss other aspects fine but I'm repeating myself after this.

The gentleman who came into that church was squirrelly to the nth degree and therefore deserved attention greater than just watching him. Mr. White was in a bad position because he did not have ready access to his gun. The body language I observed showed a laid back posture and even when he stood up he did not seem to be on edge and this was even after the guy had drawn his shotgun.

The lesson I learn from this encounter is that when I in my church encounter a squirrel (And none have ever come in to date) I will position myself out of their LOS (as Mr. White did) and put my hand on my gun (which Mr White didn't do) and not let the squirrel know they are being watched until that squirrel is gone. If they produce a firearm I will react as needed. I won't say where or how I might engage so we don't get hung up on whether the shot is behind him or in front.

You do not think that is "feasible"or acceptable. I disagree and think your method to be too passive that could cost lives.

Since Mr. White did not have his gun ready he was "out of position" in my vernacular. Just being behind the BG is not enough.

If I didn't cover yours and Aguila Blanca's comments then I can address them as trying to address multiple posts may get confusing so I put my answers together.
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Old January 20, 2020, 04:28 AM   #258
Aguila Blanca
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Originally Posted by Tennessee Gentleman
Since Mr. White did not have his gun ready he was "out of position" in my vernacular. Just being behind the BG is not enough.
There you go, moving the goal posts again.

I certainly didn't interpret "being in position" to include having a hand on a gun. "Position" means location. Mr. White was in the right position -- until the shooter turned around, and which point that became the wrong position because it was no longer behind the shooter.
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Old January 20, 2020, 10:00 AM   #259
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I think you guys are asking the wrong questions. None of this hinged on whether or not someone had their hand on their gun. I don't think that aspect would have made any difference. There are plenty of things which may have changed the outcome but "hand on gun" aint one of them. At least not in my opinion.

It would be really hard for me to comment further without being insensitive to those involved and those who have suffered, so I will refrain from a level of specificity that points negatively toward any specific person. Perhaps a year from now, we may revisit this subject as part of a different thread.

Until then, I guess I will simply stand-by until you guys get past the chapter involving this whole "hand on the gun" thing.
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Old January 20, 2020, 11:55 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by FireForged
I guess I will simply stand-by until you guys get past the chapter involving this whole "hand on the gun" thing.
As I posted earlier I've made my point and will not comment further on it.

I do think sometimes it's hard to communicate to multiple folks in these forums (or email). Face to face or phone call is better but then that's not possible so there it is. I used to have a rule that if my emails were longer than five lines I called. Dang this modern world!
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Old Yesterday, 01:00 AM   #261
JohnKSa
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Wilson said so in his interview. He said the shot was full face on and the guy was looking at him.
Found an interview with both Willeford and Wilson.

Wilson does state that the shooter noticed him, but only after he had turned toward the front of the church. Wilson believes that the shooter caught his motion out of the corner of his eye and started to look back towards him just as Wilson took the shot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4gTT9YkXys
"He turned and shot Richard first, turned and immediately shot Tony second and then started going towards the front. <...> He evidently caught a little bit of my motion out of the corner of his eye because he partially turned back to me and that's when I took my shot."
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