4+1: Enough? - Page 2

cslinger · June 15, 2018, 03:29 PM

Ohh yeah then totally agree you simply cannot assume all hits no matter what. Way more so on war/Combat.

A shotgun/any long Gun at bad breath range will however give an edge over a handgun in this regard and a shotgun will give you a “tiny” bit more margin of error as you have a palm/babies fist sized projectile mass vs a single 9mm/.223 sized one.

As far as skill in putting rounds on target go under stress..........well I imagine it would be very difficult for me to do as I haven’t explicitly practiced shooting backwards as I run away screaming like a seven year old girl.

fastbolt · June 16, 2018, 02:36 PM

I'm one of the folks who finds the standard 4-rd mag tube on a standard 870 to be fine for my anticipated needs. I also own a Winchester 1200 defender with a longer mag tube, but that was a gift from my father many years ago (after he'd previously given me a Mossberg with a long mag tube, which I eventually gave back).

I carried a late 70's vintage 870 in my unmarked car for several years before retirement. It had been rotated out of regular Patrol service when we replaced the older shotguns with newer LE models with extended tubes. It was cleaned up a bit by the former head armorer, and I used it as the "student gun" in an 870 armorer class I attended a few years before I retired.

It had a short forend (I hate having a sweaty hand slip and getting pinched/cut by the rear of the standard wood furniture when it finds the front edge of the lower receiver). The head armorer also equipped it with a Side Saddle (since he had an extra one, and he wanted me to have the extra shells closer at hand than in a suit coat pocket).

As a LE firearms trainer I spent a lot of time (and burned up what I was told was a significant amount of our 12GA budget) learning to run the shotgun fairly quickly and reasonably accurately.

On my better days I could put 6 rounds of low recoil 00B in the inner scoring zone of a standard silhouette at 7yds in 1.5 secs. On an average day I was satisfied to be able to put 3 rounds of 00B or 1oz slugs on target in less than a second. (Riding the recoil and timing the pump operation is the limiting factor for me, and when it gets above 3 rounds the timing can more easily become "off".)

When I had to go up against some guys from other agencies running autos, during an instructor update class, I set the fast time using that old 870. It was 5 rounds of 00B in 1.23 secs, but that score got bumped because 1 of the rounds slipped outside the smallest scoring zone box and into the second zone. It still gave the guys running autos something to think about, though.

I'm not a shotgun hunter (or any kind of a hunter anymore), so my only shotgun usage was limited to the LE range when I was working as a trainer at our range, or taking an outside class.

Bottom line? One those rare occasions when I think I have reason to reach for and prep a personal shotgun at home ... it's the 4-rd Remington 870 I reach for first (with the longer tubed defender remaining in the safe).

If I have reason to expect an attacker with body armor, or more than a couple threats, then I'll forgo the 12GA in favor of my HBAR, or maybe my .30-30.

agtman · June 17, 2018, 05:11 PM

The real question isn't whether 4+1 capacity in the shotty is 'enough.' Nope, the real question is: once you've exhausted all those shells in the gunfight, what's the capacity of your back-up pistol or revolver?

Remember, at the O.K. Corral, once Doc Holiday emptied his double-barrel shotgun (as in 2+0) into a deserving Clanton, did he attempt some sort of 'John Wick' 'speed reload'? Hell no. He immediately went to his 6-shot Peacemaker to finish his share of the fight.

Word to the wise.

MoArk Willy · June 17, 2018, 07:30 PM

I thought about the question and the only answer I can come up with is "it depends".
If it's a bump in the night situation, a shotgun is a perfect response gun....small holes in the wall, less likely to kill a neighbor and the point and shoot ability of a shotgun is priceless.
4 + 1 is more than adequate. That being said, you situation will determine how much firepower you need. Personally I like a gun with a laser for home protection. At the very least it may buy you time to get to your shotgun.

jaguarxk120 · June 19, 2018, 09:11 AM

This is enough for Pancho, should be just right for
home defence.

cslinger · June 20, 2018, 11:23 AM

If I thought George Patton was trying to kill me I would carry that much ammo or more as well.

drobs · June 20, 2018, 11:46 AM

I don't have any neighbors, I use AK47 for home defense.
30rds of 7.62x39 ought to do the trick.

WV_gunner · July 2, 2018, 08:04 PM

The gun being present is enough sometimes. What do you expect? No one to break in or an entire gang. If you want to prepare yourself with a shotgun for help you have to realize what you need. I used to keep an O/U 12 gauge with 000. I felt satisfied with it. I also kept .410 with 3 inch 000 (5 ball) with a full 5 shot cylinder. I felt more than satisfied with it. But now with kids I keep a pistol kept high up and out of reach. Once they are older I might go back to my Circuit Judge or use my Hi-point rifle. For me, carbine sized guns are perfect. Steadiness of a long gun, slightly more power than a pistol, and yet not big like a full sized long gun. Try to walk through your house with a shouldered gun and imagine an intruder. I’d rather be less clumsy.

Model12Win · July 2, 2018, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WV_gunner

The gun being present is enough sometimes. What do you expect? No one to break in or an entire gang. If you want to prepare yourself with a shotgun for help you have to realize what you need. I used to keep an O/U 12 gauge with 000. I felt satisfied with it. I also kept .410 with 3 inch 000 (5 ball) with a full 5 shot cylinder. I felt more than satisfied with it. But now with kids I keep a pistol kept high up and out of reach. Once they are older I might go back to my Circuit Judge or use my Hi-point rifle. For me, carbine sized guns are perfect. Steadiness of a long gun, slightly more power than a pistol, and yet not big like a full sized long gun. Try to walk through your house with a shouldered gun and imagine an intruder. I’d rather be less clumsy.

WV, I definitely get what you're saying. However for my needs I have no reason to walk through my house with a long gun unless I'm attacked during waking hours. If I'm awoken by noises from outside the bedroom, all training I've read on from many tops in the field say the worst thing one can do is go barge out. The only exception to this is if you have kids or wives in other rooms. I do not so it simplifies things. I keep the shotgun as a "barricade gun" if the perps feel the need to beat down the bedroom wall, and I've got a pistol nearby as backup in case there's no time to prepare the shotgun or as an auxiliary when the shotgun runs dry.

stagpanther · July 3, 2018, 02:05 AM

Quote:

What do you expect? No one to break in or an entire gang.

If you live in an urban area with drug gangs established territories--then the gang-hit on your house is very possible--seen it several times as well as had a gang setting my house up for a hit but they had second thoughts upon seeing me with an XD in my hands through my window. They probably left only because they felt a killing wasn't worth whatever cheap electronics they had in mind reselling is my guess. The common tactic is to know what they are after and where it is, and have up to 6 gang members do a quick scan of front and side of house to ensure nobody is there if possible--then smash through a rear entry run and grab as quickly as they can and take off. They know if they can pull it off in a matter seconds they don't mind if they are seen and the police called if they have a good get-away plan.

WV_gunner · July 3, 2018, 06:01 AM

Here we typically only have drug related crime. And theft is by a drug addict looking for drugs or things to trade for drugs. Two people tops usually, and it’s rare. We don’t have what one would call a gang, but some travel in groups. Those groups are usually to scream at other similar groups and they try to fight each other. Typically welfare bums calling each other lazy. We do have crime coming in from larger areas, there’s actually a drug trade between a few near by cities and Detroit here, but violent crime from the Detroit area here seems to be toward local dealers owing money to them. I’ve never had issues at my current house. My neighbor did have trespassers refuse to leave the other day, he pulled a gun on them and shot at the ground hoping to scare them. Still wouldn’t leave. State police came and made them leave. Arrests should’ve been made I believe. But surprisingly those people haven’t been back. When I lived in town things were sketchier, small town but crime is higher. A meth lab was found a block from where I was living, probably 10 houses down. I do have children so my priority is keeping them safe. Honestly there’s a guy that’s a Vietnam vet, I’m told, that keeps walking up and down the road. He doesn’t seem to be quite all there so I feel bad but I don’t know if he’s just a confused old man trying to find some sort of joy in his or if he’s a pervert. Some odd situations have happened and they are border line. I don’t know how to handle it. When we come home there’s sometimes a cigarette butt placed dead center of the sidewalk in front of the gate that I now keep shut because he was wondering in our yard.

stagpanther · July 3, 2018, 07:47 AM

Drug gangs will usually set up for business in dense urban communities where business is good--and the supply of young recruits readily available, like single-parent families where the (usually mother) must spend time working. Bloods and Crypts being notable examples. They often pop in areas readily serviced by major transportation routes such as major shipping interstates; major feed conduits by cartels outside our borders. Gangs provide a social network for kids and a sense of belonging--they often recruit children even when they are not yet even teenagers. There is a hierarchy based in part on "street cred" and what you have done, so break-ins, theft etc are part of the graduation of up-ward mobility, which includes, at higher levels, shootings and murder.

In the last ten years or so the reach of drug gangs has started making it's way into rural areas like New Hampshire and Maine; they have among the highest rates of opiod fatalities per capita of all the US. These areas do not have the ideal demographics for recruitment so gang turf warfare is pretty rare, at least for now--but they are still succeeding in getting "local representatives" to enlist in their distribution schemes, they know that law enforcement is not nearly as concentrated or equipped to deal with their activities as in larger urban areas.

I've seen actual gang shootings and been shot at myself--these are kids most of the time 20 years old or younger; they often have no concept of living any kind of meaningful life outside the gang and death at young age or life imprisonment is accepted as natural.

"Honor shootings" happen a lot--it could be something as simple as one teenager insulting the color of another's shoes in a high school classroom--or perhaps insulting one's sister or girlfriend. Drive-by shootings is a favored technique.

ATN082268 · July 3, 2018, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stagpanther

I've seen actual gang shootings and been shot at myself--these are kids most of the time 20 years old or younger; they often have no concept of living any kind of meaningful life outside the gang and death at young age or life imprisonment is accepted as natural.

I don't know how criminals react in a typical home defense (HD) situation but I'd say shooting at them, especially if one or more is hit, will definitely get their attention and most likely have them head for the nearest avenue of escape. If you are unfortunate enough to be robbed in the first place, have multiple criminals who are unphased by being shot at/hit and determined to kill you at any cost, you will be in trouble with a 4+1 capacity weapon but you'd probably be in trouble regardless of the weapon and capacity...

stephen426 · July 3, 2018, 01:20 PM

Dude... If you're trying to justify buying a Keltec KSG, then no, 4+1 isn't enough. There. LOL

stagpanther · July 3, 2018, 01:45 PM

I've seen the aftermath of a gang "drive up house hit" windows go down and AK's/ARs empty several magazines into a house--they are usually after someone specifically but don't really care if anyone else home is hit or killed. Impressive Swiss cheese approach. That's why I'll always have a loaded AR within reach in addition to a high capacity pistol. Shotguns are good too. It all depends on where you live I guess.

Kirosha · July 3, 2018, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stagpanther

I've seen the aftermath of a gang "drive up house hit" windows go down and AK's/ARs empty several magazines into a house--they are usually after someone specifically but don't really care if anyone else home is hit or killed. Impressive Swiss cheese approach. That's why I'll always have a loaded AR within reach in addition to a high capacity pistol. Shotguns are good too. It all depends on where you live I guess.

This is why I have easy access to multiple loaded rifles on top of my SD/HD guns. I live with hurricanes, tornadoes and bad storms. I don't need a looter mob coming by too starved or greedy to care about me and mine. Go without power for a few days and you'll see what I mean. Back in the day, we had looting problems and a lot of home invasions.

Scorch · July 3, 2018, 03:37 PM

Quote:

4+1: Enough?

To paraphrase Jeff Cooper
If 5 rounds of buckshot are not enough to solve the situation, you have made a serious tactical error.

Sharkbite · July 3, 2018, 03:56 PM

Quote:

If 5 rounds of buckshot are not enough to solve the situation, you have made a serious tactical error.

Or...youve been forced into a bad tactical position and are going to need MORE ammo to get yourself out of said position. ;-)

Glenn E. Meyer · July 3, 2018, 05:02 PM

This is an old debate about capacity and whether you:

1. Assume you will hit the target and have disabling effects
2. You have one or two opponents

There is a continuum of incident intensity, so as in statistical decision making, you have to pick a criterion level and take the risks associated with that cut off.

Cliches by Cooper, or whomever, are not that useful in today's world.

glenspen · July 4, 2018, 12:02 AM

4+1?

My Mossberg 500 has 5+1 and another 6 in the Mesa side saddle....that makes 12 shots...that's plenty if you practice a quick reload

rc · July 4, 2018, 12:52 AM

Went up against a robber with the only thing I had when I came home to a break in... a scoped bolt action 22 with seven rounds of Xpert on board that happened to be in my truck for varmint control. After calling police, I loaded my gun and waited in my truck until I saw movement in the yard behind some trees. Then I took advantage of surprise and moved quickly and decisively to get the drop on the perp ordering him to the ground. I didn't know if he was armed. There was another I never saw but was watching for. He tried to lie his way out of gun point saying he just wanted water but I held firm and let him know that to move was to die and he could tell his story to the cops. During the stand off he dared me to shoot him so I took better aim and put my finger on the trigger while waiting to see what he was going to do next. He was testing me waiting for me to flinch. In that situation, I would have preferred a 4 and 1 12 gauge with buck but the 22 gave me some stand off distance with the perp over a handgun or shotgun. You don't always get the time to select what weapon you think is best for a situation and often have to make do with what you have at hand. A 9mm on your hip is more effective than a 12 gauge or AR in the car or safe. Even a single shot 20 gauge is better than nothing in a home defense situation but tactics and state of mind is far more important than weapons choice.

Another time a guy showed up on my doorstep one evening asking for a ride, water, a cigarette, to use the phone etc trying to con his way in the house. I offered to make phone calls for him and loaded a 357 rifle
with 38 plinking loads I had been shooting that day. I hid the rifle from view and talked to him through the window. He said he had no warrants but when I finally called the cops to pick him up after several phone calls to people who weren't able to come get him he took off like a jack rabbit. Stupid druggies will say anything to get what they want and will try to play on your kindness asking for water or something innocent to get you to lower your guard. Don't do it! The cops told me another person in the county had been beaten about the head a year before when a guy came asking for water and he opened the door. Criminals will exploit your kindness to gain advantage over you. Having a car drive up and make swiss cheese out of your house certainly can happen but it's not a common situation for most people. Far more common are the random tweekers who don't act logically.

Dragger34 · August 30, 2018, 08:09 AM

I look at it this way.

00 Buck has 9 projectiles.

5 shells, that's 45 projectiles. That should be more than enough.

stephen426 · August 30, 2018, 08:46 AM

Quote:

I look at it this way.

00 Buck has 9 projectiles.

5 shells, that's 45 projectiles. That should be more than enough.

Dragger,

Measure where you would be shooting from to where you could be shooting to and do a shot pattern test. Test you aim under stress with a massive adrenaline dump. After doing that, tell us if you think 4+1 is still enough. If you still think so, add the possibility of more than one attacker.

Home defense is different from concealed carry since you do not need to worry about the size or weight of the gun, since you are lugging it around everywhere. I am a decent shot and I practice fairly often, but I have a larger handgun for self defense instead of my sub-compact 6+1. Do I really believe I will need the extra rounds? Not really, but the larger gun will control recoil better, give me a better sight radius, and I will have the extra shots in case I need it.

I am fortunate to live in a pretty good area where the police response time is really fast. There have still been a couple of home invasions though. I don't really worry about gang style drive by shootings where I live.

Dragger34 · August 30, 2018, 12:31 PM

I live out in a rural area, and have a few dogs. Odds of someone breaking into my home, low.

Odds of someone breaking into my home WHILE I'm home, lower than that.

Odds of that person being armed while breaking into my home while I'm home, even lower than THAT.

Odds of two armed people, breaking into my home, while I'm home with the will to keep fighting after my 5 rounds 00Buck, HK VP40 (back-up), a German Shepherd, Saint Bernard, two Great Danes, and the Yorky (She's a bitch) over a T.V. that is now probably full of holes or blood? If all those stars align then it's just my time.

I also have a safe with numerous other weapons if needed. I just doubt I'll need several hundred or thousand rounds to run off or stop a pair of 90 pound, tweaked out meth heads.

stagpanther · August 30, 2018, 01:04 PM

Quote:

I live out in a rural area, and have a few dogs. Odds of someone breaking into my home, low.

Odds of someone breaking into my home WHILE I'm home, lower than that.

Odds of that person being armed while breaking into my home while I'm home, even lower than THAT.

Odds of two armed people, breaking into my home, while I'm home with the will to keep fighting after my 5 rounds 00Buck, HK VP40 (back-up), a German Shepherd, Saint Bernard, two Great Danes, and the Yorky (She's a bitch) over a T.V. that is now probably full of holes or blood? If all those stars align then it's just my time.

I also have a safe with numerous other weapons if needed. I just doubt I'll need several hundred or thousand rounds to run off or stop a pair of 90 pound, tweaked out meth heads.
__________________
Always best to have and not need than to need and not have.

What if they bring tear gas and grenades?

View Poll Results: Is 4+1 rounds of 12 gauge enough for home defense duty?
Yes	10	52.63%
Probably, but I prefer more rounds	9	47.37%
No	0	0%
Voters: 19. You may not vote on this poll

June 15, 2018, 03:29 PM	#26
cslinger Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2002 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 2,045	Ohh yeah then totally agree you simply cannot assume all hits no matter what. Way more so on war/Combat. A shotgun/any long Gun at bad breath range will however give an edge over a handgun in this regard and a shotgun will give you a “tiny” bit more margin of error as you have a palm/babies fist sized projectile mass vs a single 9mm/.223 sized one. As far as skill in putting rounds on target go under stress..........well I imagine it would be very difficult for me to do as I haven’t explicitly practiced shooting backwards as I run away screaming like a seven year old girl. __________________ "Is there anyway I can write my local gun store off on my taxes as dependents?"

June 16, 2018, 02:36 PM	#27
fastbolt Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2002 Location: northern CA for a little while longer Posts: 1,931	I'm one of the folks who finds the standard 4-rd mag tube on a standard 870 to be fine for my anticipated needs. I also own a Winchester 1200 defender with a longer mag tube, but that was a gift from my father many years ago (after he'd previously given me a Mossberg with a long mag tube, which I eventually gave back). I carried a late 70's vintage 870 in my unmarked car for several years before retirement. It had been rotated out of regular Patrol service when we replaced the older shotguns with newer LE models with extended tubes. It was cleaned up a bit by the former head armorer, and I used it as the "student gun" in an 870 armorer class I attended a few years before I retired. It had a short forend (I hate having a sweaty hand slip and getting pinched/cut by the rear of the standard wood furniture when it finds the front edge of the lower receiver). The head armorer also equipped it with a Side Saddle (since he had an extra one, and he wanted me to have the extra shells closer at hand than in a suit coat pocket). As a LE firearms trainer I spent a lot of time (and burned up what I was told was a significant amount of our 12GA budget) learning to run the shotgun fairly quickly and reasonably accurately. On my better days I could put 6 rounds of low recoil 00B in the inner scoring zone of a standard silhouette at 7yds in 1.5 secs. On an average day I was satisfied to be able to put 3 rounds of 00B or 1oz slugs on target in less than a second. (Riding the recoil and timing the pump operation is the limiting factor for me, and when it gets above 3 rounds the timing can more easily become "off".) When I had to go up against some guys from other agencies running autos, during an instructor update class, I set the fast time using that old 870. It was 5 rounds of 00B in 1.23 secs, but that score got bumped because 1 of the rounds slipped outside the smallest scoring zone box and into the second zone. It still gave the guys running autos something to think about, though. I'm not a shotgun hunter (or any kind of a hunter anymore), so my only shotgun usage was limited to the LE range when I was working as a trainer at our range, or taking an outside class. Bottom line? One those rare occasions when I think I have reason to reach for and prep a personal shotgun at home ... it's the 4-rd Remington 870 I reach for first (with the longer tubed defender remaining in the safe). If I have reason to expect an attacker with body armor, or more than a couple threats, then I'll forgo the 12GA in favor of my HBAR, or maybe my .30-30. __________________ Retired LE - firearms instructor & armorer

June 20, 2018, 11:23 AM	#31
cslinger Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2002 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 2,045	If I thought George Patton was trying to kill me I would carry that much ammo or more as well. __________________ "Is there anyway I can write my local gun store off on my taxes as dependents?"

June 20, 2018, 11:46 AM	#32
drobs Senior Member Join Date: July 17, 2015 Location: South Central MO / Africa Posts: 1,111	I don't have any neighbors, I use AK47 for home defense. 30rds of 7.62x39 ought to do the trick. __________________ NRA Life Member

June 17, 2018, 05:11 PM	#28
agtman Junior member Join Date: July 26, 2001 Location: midwest Posts: 2,374	The real question isn't whether 4+1 capacity in the shotty is 'enough.' Nope, the real question is: once you've exhausted all those shells in the gunfight, what's the capacity of your back-up pistol or revolver? Remember, at the O.K. Corral, once Doc Holiday emptied his double-barrel shotgun (as in 2+0) into a deserving Clanton, did he attempt some sort of 'John Wick' 'speed reload'? Hell no. He immediately went to his 6-shot Peacemaker to finish his share of the fight. Word to the wise.

June 17, 2018, 07:30 PM	#29
MoArk Willy Member Join Date: June 15, 2018 Posts: 93	I thought about the question and the only answer I can come up with is "it depends". If it's a bump in the night situation, a shotgun is a perfect response gun....small holes in the wall, less likely to kill a neighbor and the point and shoot ability of a shotgun is priceless. 4 + 1 is more than adequate. That being said, you situation will determine how much firepower you need. Personally I like a gun with a laser for home protection. At the very least it may buy you time to get to your shotgun.

July 2, 2018, 08:04 PM	#33
WV_gunner Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2011 Location: WV Posts: 938	The gun being present is enough sometimes. What do you expect? No one to break in or an entire gang. If you want to prepare yourself with a shotgun for help you have to realize what you need. I used to keep an O/U 12 gauge with 000. I felt satisfied with it. I also kept .410 with 3 inch 000 (5 ball) with a full 5 shot cylinder. I felt more than satisfied with it. But now with kids I keep a pistol kept high up and out of reach. Once they are older I might go back to my Circuit Judge or use my Hi-point rifle. For me, carbine sized guns are perfect. Steadiness of a long gun, slightly more power than a pistol, and yet not big like a full sized long gun. Try to walk through your house with a shouldered gun and imagine an intruder. I’d rather be less clumsy.

July 3, 2018, 06:01 AM	#36
WV_gunner Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2011 Location: WV Posts: 938	Here we typically only have drug related crime. And theft is by a drug addict looking for drugs or things to trade for drugs. Two people tops usually, and it’s rare. We don’t have what one would call a gang, but some travel in groups. Those groups are usually to scream at other similar groups and they try to fight each other. Typically welfare bums calling each other lazy. We do have crime coming in from larger areas, there’s actually a drug trade between a few near by cities and Detroit here, but violent crime from the Detroit area here seems to be toward local dealers owing money to them. I’ve never had issues at my current house. My neighbor did have trespassers refuse to leave the other day, he pulled a gun on them and shot at the ground hoping to scare them. Still wouldn’t leave. State police came and made them leave. Arrests should’ve been made I believe. But surprisingly those people haven’t been back. When I lived in town things were sketchier, small town but crime is higher. A meth lab was found a block from where I was living, probably 10 houses down. I do have children so my priority is keeping them safe. Honestly there’s a guy that’s a Vietnam vet, I’m told, that keeps walking up and down the road. He doesn’t seem to be quite all there so I feel bad but I don’t know if he’s just a confused old man trying to find some sort of joy in his or if he’s a pervert. Some odd situations have happened and they are border line. I don’t know how to handle it. When we come home there’s sometimes a cigarette butt placed dead center of the sidewalk in front of the gate that I now keep shut because he was wondering in our yard.

July 3, 2018, 07:47 AM	#37
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,771	Drug gangs will usually set up for business in dense urban communities where business is good--and the supply of young recruits readily available, like single-parent families where the (usually mother) must spend time working. *Bloods* and *Crypts* being notable examples. They often pop in areas readily serviced by major transportation routes such as major shipping interstates; major feed conduits by cartels outside our borders. Gangs provide a social network for kids and a sense of belonging--they often recruit children even when they are not yet even teenagers. There is a hierarchy based in part on "street cred" and what you have done, so break-ins, theft etc are part of the graduation of up-ward mobility, which includes, at higher levels, shootings and murder. In the last ten years or so the reach of drug gangs has started making it's way into rural areas like New Hampshire and Maine; they have among the highest rates of opiod fatalities per capita of all the US. These areas do not have the ideal demographics for recruitment so gang turf warfare is pretty rare, at least for now--but they are still succeeding in getting "local representatives" to enlist in their distribution schemes, they know that law enforcement is not nearly as concentrated or equipped to deal with their activities as in larger urban areas. I've seen actual gang shootings and been shot at myself--these are kids most of the time 20 years old or younger; they often have no concept of living any kind of meaningful life outside the gang and death at young age or life imprisonment is accepted as natural. "Honor shootings" happen a lot--it could be something as simple as one teenager insulting the color of another's shoes in a high school classroom--or perhaps insulting one's sister or girlfriend. Drive-by shootings is a favored technique. __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!* Last edited by stagpanther; July 3, 2018 at 08:21 AM.

July 3, 2018, 01:20 PM	#39
stephen426 Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Posts: 3,840	Dude... If you're trying to justify buying a Keltec KSG, then no, 4+1 isn't enough. There. LOL __________________ The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!

July 3, 2018, 01:45 PM	#40
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,771	I've seen the aftermath of a gang "drive up house hit" windows go down and AK's/ARs empty several magazines into a house--they are usually after someone specifically but don't really care if anyone else home is hit or killed. Impressive Swiss cheese approach. That's why I'll always have a loaded AR within reach in addition to a high capacity pistol. Shotguns are good too. It all depends on where you live I guess. __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

July 3, 2018, 05:02 PM	#44
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	This is an old debate about capacity and whether you: 1. Assume you will hit the target and have disabling effects 2. You have one or two opponents There is a continuum of incident intensity, so as in statistical decision making, you have to pick a criterion level and take the risks associated with that cut off. Cliches by Cooper, or whomever, are not that useful in today's world. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

July 4, 2018, 12:02 AM	#45
glenspen Member Join Date: January 17, 2017 Location: San Francisco CA Posts: 29	4+1? My Mossberg 500 has 5+1 and another 6 in the Mesa side saddle....that makes 12 shots...that's plenty if you practice a quick reload

July 4, 2018, 12:52 AM	#46
rc Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2001 Location: CA Posts: 1,763	It's a state of mind Went up against a robber with the only thing I had when I came home to a break in... a scoped bolt action 22 with seven rounds of Xpert on board that happened to be in my truck for varmint control. After calling police, I loaded my gun and waited in my truck until I saw movement in the yard behind some trees. Then I took advantage of surprise and moved quickly and decisively to get the drop on the perp ordering him to the ground. I didn't know if he was armed. There was another I never saw but was watching for. He tried to lie his way out of gun point saying he just wanted water but I held firm and let him know that to move was to die and he could tell his story to the cops. During the stand off he dared me to shoot him so I took better aim and put my finger on the trigger while waiting to see what he was going to do next. He was testing me waiting for me to flinch. In that situation, I would have preferred a 4 and 1 12 gauge with buck but the 22 gave me some stand off distance with the perp over a handgun or shotgun. You don't always get the time to select what weapon you think is best for a situation and often have to make do with what you have at hand. A 9mm on your hip is more effective than a 12 gauge or AR in the car or safe. Even a single shot 20 gauge is better than nothing in a home defense situation but tactics and state of mind is far more important than weapons choice. Another time a guy showed up on my doorstep one evening asking for a ride, water, a cigarette, to use the phone etc trying to con his way in the house. I offered to make phone calls for him and loaded a 357 rifle with 38 plinking loads I had been shooting that day. I hid the rifle from view and talked to him through the window. He said he had no warrants but when I finally called the cops to pick him up after several phone calls to people who weren't able to come get him he took off like a jack rabbit. Stupid druggies will say anything to get what they want and will try to play on your kindness asking for water or something innocent to get you to lower your guard. Don't do it! The cops told me another person in the county had been beaten about the head a year before when a guy came asking for water and he opened the door. Criminals will exploit your kindness to gain advantage over you. Having a car drive up and make swiss cheese out of your house certainly can happen but it's not a common situation for most people. Far more common are the random tweekers who don't act logically.

August 30, 2018, 08:09 AM	#47
Dragger34 Member Join Date: July 25, 2013 Location: Gainesville, FL Posts: 89	I look at it this way. 00 Buck has 9 projectiles. 5 shells, that's 45 projectiles. That should be more than enough. __________________ Always best to have and not need than to need and not have.

August 30, 2018, 12:31 PM	#49
Dragger34 Member Join Date: July 25, 2013 Location: Gainesville, FL Posts: 89	I live out in a rural area, and have a few dogs. Odds of someone breaking into my home, low. Odds of someone breaking into my home WHILE I'm home, lower than that. Odds of that person being armed while breaking into my home while I'm home, even lower than THAT. Odds of two armed people, breaking into my home, while I'm home with the will to keep fighting after my 5 rounds 00Buck, HK VP40 (back-up), a German Shepherd, Saint Bernard, two Great Danes, and the Yorky (She's a bitch) over a T.V. that is now probably full of holes or blood? If all those stars align then it's just my time. I also have a safe with numerous other weapons if needed. I just doubt I'll need several hundred or thousand rounds to run off or stop a pair of 90 pound, tweaked out meth heads. __________________ Always best to have and not need than to need and not have.