Which influences accuracy most? - Page 5

Metal god · May 28, 2015, 06:37 PM

I think you're taking the powder idea out of context . Not one of us would say if you had a 10rd lot of ammo and they all had a different charge . That would not cause a huge problem . At least for me and what I've been stressing ( bullet ) You will have worked up a load to the best you can . Powder ,best charge that works for that bullet . The best charge for a crappy FMJ and the best charge for a SMK or A-Max The match bullets are going to shoot better every time .

I don't think pond was asking If all the rounds had different charges or each round had a different powder would that matter .

The way I've been thinking about this is all other things being equal or to the best of there ability for the application . For you to disprove my bullet theory . All other things must be as equal as possible and the end result would be . No matter what bullet you shoot there will be NO noticeable difference . I believe there are many ways to prep a case and you would not see a difference . There many different powders and charges you can try and still get superb results . but the test would be unfair to mix the charges or the powders . It would be like instead of using A-Max bullets you use Hornady bullets of all different types or even all A-Max but all different weights . There must be some type of control or you can make anything seem more important .

9MMand223only · May 29, 2015, 04:46 PM

You are right, that is out of context. I just listed "another" way.

I think using a consistent "wrong" charge is far worse, far far worse than using a low quality bullet.

I loaded up some 55 grain 223 with 26 grains of Accurate 2230 and was doing ~ MOA across multiple barrels and guns using mixed brass and different primers using a variety of different 55 grain bullets.

But then I loaded in some IMR4895 in a light load, and wow...same everything above, went from ~1 MOA to easily 3+ MOA. Just terrible.

And that powder charge was measured to .02 grains using competition dies on a dillon.

If you load up quickload program, you can see why powder is such a huge factor in accuracy. If you do a load that is only burning say ~80% efficiently, that thing is going to shoot terrible.

Diamond LawDawg · June 1, 2015, 06:21 AM

The one holding the firearm...discussion closed

Eliminate all of the so called possibilities....powder,load,bullet shape and grain,weather,type of firearm(cheap or very expensive) etc.etc.

Pond, James Pond · June 1, 2015, 06:35 AM

Quote:

The one holding the firearm...discussion closed Eliminate all of the so called possibilities....powder,load,bullet shape and grain,weather,type of firearm(cheap or very expensive) etc.etc.

Did you read any of the thread or even the OP beyond the title?

The exclusion of both the gun and shooter from this particular equation has been covered several times, including the rationale as to why.

F. Guffey · June 1, 2015, 09:33 AM

Quote:

The one holding the firearm...discussion closed

Diamond LawDawg, Mr. Farr shows up at a contest. No rifle, no ammo, he chooses a rifle and is issued ammo. He fires the rifle and decides it shoots like a shotgun, it shot patterns. He takes a short ride to select another rifle from a rack of rifles. Nothing about the rifle he choose screamed "PICK ME", he returned to the shooting contest with a late start. He finished with the ammo he started with and it is said he could have done better if the sun had not set.

I am starting on a couple of heavy/long barreled 308 W/7.62 rifles. I started with the barrel and cases. The cases are 1961 WRA NATO and 1961 LC 7.62 NATO cases. I was hoping the cases had been fired in a machine gun but the case head protrusion on one barrel is .111" and .117" on the other. The cases drop to the shoulder of the chamber, meaning I will neck size only and full length sizing is not required. 250 cases divided between the two rifles should be a good start.

I could build and finish then start on the ammo, I want to know the difference in length between the cases and the chamber.

F. Guffey

Metal god · June 1, 2015, 02:08 PM

Pond

Maybe you should have started the thread out

If you have last years long range world champion shooting the most finely tuned rifle . Which of these four things would influence accuracy more ?

Is it the condition of the case?
Is it the bullet used?
Is it the powder?
Or COAL?

Nah , somebody would still fine fault with that .

When I first started reloading I asked a question very much like yours . The answers were the same as well . I ended up making the point that I wanted to remove as many of the variables of the reloading process as I could so I could then concentrate on the shooter .It's why I use bushing dies , uniform & de-burr flash holes .Clean primer pockets , Minimal working of the brass , use match bullets . If you're loading crappy ammo and don't know it . How do you know it's the ammo , shooter or rifle . I say you start with a rifle that you know shoots well . Then work up loads to the best of your ability . This should pretty much leave the shooter as the problem if there is one .

Don't get me wrong that's not the order for a knew shooter .

Pond, James Pond · June 2, 2015, 01:10 AM

Well, I am sure my rifle shoots well and I have one load that seems to be very good. It is 155gr and I'd like to find another in 170gr or so, but it may be that my 1:12 twist will twart that to a degree.

Metal god · June 2, 2015, 01:36 AM

Interesting , I don't think I ever heard you talk about the twist before . I'm sure you have I just missed it . I like to use the Bergers twist rate calculator to check that kind of stuff out http://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/

Pond, James Pond · June 2, 2015, 04:10 AM

I haven't mentioned twist in this thread but then this thread wasn't meant to centre specifically around me, my loads or my rifle. Rather it was all theoretical. The topic simply came to mind as I was reloading...

Being a Varmint rifle my Cz550 was probably designed for lighter .30 cal bullets but I still hope to get my 170gn lockbase bullets shooting at 1moa or better as I improve.

May 28, 2015, 06:37 PM	#101
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,876	I think you're taking the powder idea out of context . Not one of us would say if you had a 10rd lot of ammo and they all had a different charge . That would not cause a huge problem . At least for me and what I've been stressing ( bullet ) You will have worked up a load to the best you can . Powder ,best charge that works for that bullet . The best charge for a crappy FMJ and the best charge for a SMK or A-Max The match bullets are going to shoot better every time . I don't think pond was asking If all the rounds had different charges or each round had a different powder would that matter . The way I've been thinking about this is all other things being equal or to the best of there ability for the application . For you to disprove my bullet theory . All other things must be as equal as possible and the end result would be . No matter what bullet you shoot there will be NO noticeable difference . I believe there are many ways to prep a case and you would not see a difference . There many different powders and charges you can try and still get superb results . but the test would be unfair to mix the charges or the powders . It would be like instead of using A-Max bullets you use Hornady bullets of all different types or even all A-Max but all different weights . There must be some type of control or you can make anything seem more important . __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .

June 1, 2015, 06:21 AM	#103
Diamond LawDawg Member Join Date: May 19, 2009 Location: Illinois Posts: 75	U Influence ACCURACY The one holding the firearm...discussion closed Eliminate all of the so called possibilities....powder,load,bullet shape and grain,weather,type of firearm(cheap or very expensive) etc.etc.

June 1, 2015, 02:08 PM	#106
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,876	Pond Maybe you should have started the thread out If you have last years long range world champion shooting the most finely tuned rifle . Which of these four things would influence accuracy more ? Is it the condition of the case? Is it the bullet used? Is it the powder? Or COAL? Nah , somebody would still fine fault with that . When I first started reloading I asked a question very much like yours . The answers were the same as well . I ended up making the point that I wanted to remove as many of the variables of the reloading process as I could so I could then concentrate on the shooter .It's why I use bushing dies , uniform & de-burr flash holes .Clean primer pockets , Minimal working of the brass , use match bullets . If you're loading crappy ammo and don't know it . How do you know it's the ammo , shooter or rifle . I say you start with a rifle that you know shoots well . Then work up loads to the best of your ability . This should pretty much leave the shooter as the problem if there is one . Don't get me wrong that's not the order for a knew shooter . __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again . Last edited by Metal god; June 1, 2015 at 02:20 PM.

June 2, 2015, 01:10 AM	#107
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	Well, I am sure my rifle shoots well and I have one load that seems to be very good. It is 155gr and I'd like to find another in 170gr or so, but it may be that my 1:12 twist will twart that to a degree. __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.

June 2, 2015, 01:36 AM	#108
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,876	Interesting , I don't think I ever heard you talk about the twist before . I'm sure you have I just missed it . I like to use the Bergers twist rate calculator to check that kind of stuff out http://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/ __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .

May 29, 2015, 04:46 PM	#102
9MMand223only Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2014 Posts: 283	You are right, that is out of context. I just listed "another" way. I think using a consistent "wrong" charge is far worse, far far worse than using a low quality bullet. I loaded up some 55 grain 223 with 26 grains of Accurate 2230 and was doing ~ MOA across multiple barrels and guns using mixed brass and different primers using a variety of different 55 grain bullets. But then I loaded in some IMR4895 in a light load, and wow...same everything above, went from ~1 MOA to easily 3+ MOA. Just terrible. And that powder charge was measured to .02 grains using competition dies on a dillon. If you load up quickload program, you can see why powder is such a huge factor in accuracy. If you do a load that is only burning say ~80% efficiently, that thing is going to shoot terrible.

June 2, 2015, 04:10 AM	#109
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	I haven't mentioned twist in this thread but then this thread wasn't meant to centre specifically around me, my loads or my rifle. Rather it was all theoretical. The topic simply came to mind as I was reloading... Being a Varmint rifle my Cz550 was probably designed for lighter .30 cal bullets but I still hope to get my 170gn lockbase bullets shooting at 1moa or better as I improve. __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.